Will/Has the recession make people more racist?

javaboy

asdasd wrote: »

The FGM debate is bollocks. One minute the sanctimonious left is declaiming as racist any criticism of non-white cultures, the next - when it benefits immigration - they are down on primitive Nigerian practices like a ton of bricks. FGM cant be used as an argument against male nigerian immigration ( i.e. the practice might be imported here) since that criticism is wah-wah-wah-wahist, but it can be used to justify female immigration since criticism of FGM in that scenario is benign and friendly.

I'm not a sanctimonious left winger and I'm not a bleeding heart PC do gooder. I just know a blatant abuse of human rights when I see one. If someone is genuinely facing FGM, then let them seek asylum here.

Your argument that we cannot use FGM to oppose male Nigerian immigration because left-wingers will kick up a stink is nonsense imo. First of all it's not just men but women too who are involved in the practice. And even so FGM could be no more used as a basis for denying someone entry to our country than 411 scams could. Unless you know somebody is actually involved in FGM, of course you can't use it to deny them access. That's not being politically correct. That's just being fair.

The result of course is that FGm will be imported here, and some judge will forgive it's practice due to cultural sensitivity, and the same old liberal mob will be lighting up the liberal torchlight for those of us who criticise FGM in Ireland.

See, if we criticise FGM here, that is racist and the next thing you know is theres a holocaust.

Eh no some judge won't forgive its practice. I'm pretty sure that decision falls outside of a judge's jurisdiction. The prediction that FGM would eventually become a sacred cow in Ireland is laughable really. Do you actually believe that?

markesmith wrote: »

Javaboy, a part of me agrees with you on this. But as I've gotten older I've started to shy away from the 'collective guilt' that liberals feel. I know some people who seem to feel personally guilty for the Palestinian situation...

What should I, as a concerned Irish citizen, do about these things? And let's go back to the '30s - if Neville Chamberlain couldn't stop what the Germans were at, what good would I have been?

I didn't mention collective guilt and I don't buy into it myself. I'm not saying everybody has to get out there and actively do something against FGM. But dismissing the legitimacy of FGM as Degsy did, because the mother might be in favour strikes me as particularly callous.

I'm not asking for people to feel guilty about it because it's not our doing. If however we voted in a BNP type party that bans all asylum seekers then yes, imo people should feel guilty about it.

Acacia

I don't think it would make them more racist (given that racism means thinking a particular race is superior to another) , it probably just expose what was already there, as Javaboy pointed out. It could make people more xenophobic , though. And of course, racists could exploit these fears to push their own agenda. People seem to forget- it's not immigrants that screw you over, it's greedy employers. This recession is proving once again, the rich are doing just fine, while leaving the little people to squabble amongst themselves.

not yet

How in the name of christ can a country of 4.4 million people take in almost 1 million people in the space of 10 years. No other country on earth has taken in almost 25% of it's population in a short space of time.

thelordofcheese

ShooterSF wrote: »

Darn I promised myself I'd stay out of this thread. One problem is you can't really debate pros and cons of immigration as mentioning anything negative labels you a racist. I've asked people who have called me racist before in these situations to specify a race I'm discriminating against and got some odd looks.
Asylum is an even more difficult issue. I wouldn't for one minute claim to know what happens to those girls in Africa however I will say even though it's not law it does seem a bit much that anyone running from persecution feels the need to travel as far as Ireland to get away from it. Persecution should not be a blank card to pick a new home. If I could reform asylum laws you would have to justify why the surrounding countries were unsuitable and so on in layers. For example say you're looking to escape persecution in Nigeria. There is Mali Algeria Libya Chad Niger first. Then Spain, Portugal, France, Greece, Sudan, Ethiopia, Egypt all before Ireland should enter your mind.

because if i'm going to run away from persecution, i'm going to run as far as i fucking can, i'm not going to pop into the country nextdoor.

K-9

ShooterSF wrote: »

Darn I promised myself I'd stay out of this thread. One problem is you can't really debate pros and cons of immigration as mentioning anything negative labels you a racist. I've asked people who have called me racist before in these situations to specify a race I'm discriminating against and got some odd looks.
Asylum is an even more difficult issue. I wouldn't for one minute claim to know what happens to those girls in Africa however I will say even though it's not law it does seem a bit much that anyone running from persecution feels the need to travel as far as Ireland to get away from it. Persecution should not be a blank card to pick a new home. If I could reform asylum laws you would have to justify why the surrounding countries were unsuitable and so on in layers. For example say you're looking to escape persecution in Nigeria. There is Mali Algeria Libya Chad Niger first. Then Spain, Portugal, France, Greece, Sudan, Ethiopia, Egypt all before Ireland should enter your mind.

not yet wrote: »

Could one or more of the bleeding hearts please put a counter argument to the above point.........

It's very simple folks,get your heads out of the fcuking sand,these people pass over,above and past at least 8 countries before they get here...and why? a deaf,blind man could tell you that.

He makes great points, posts like yours backing it up makes it hard to agree with him! 8 Countries! :eek:

markesmith wrote: »

Actually lads & ladies, after a brief scan through this:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055458119

I've decided that devil's advocate is a dangerous game.

We're a peripheral country, and have had a fairly homogenous population for a long time.

When people come in with other languages, religions and/or skin colours, it's bound to create a bit of tension.

That can be glossed over when everything's going well and we all have a bit of money.

When things go downhill, scapegoats are always sought. And we Irish love a scapegoat.

So I agree with the OP - the recession will make Irish people more racist.

Yep, I agree, Us Irish are too thick to learn from other countries mistakes! I'm Racist I know!

not yet wrote: »

How in the name of christ can a country of 4.4 million people take in almost 1 million people in the space of 10 years. No other country on earth has taken in almost 25% of it's population in a short space of time.

8 Countries, 1 Million, were do you get this stuff from?

not yet

300,000 poles another 150,000 from latvia etc, 150,000 chinese(on education visas) 50,000 indian nationals, 20,000 pakistanis. and yeah before you ask I made them up, the real figure is 1/4 that...

That before you add in the nigerians etc.

Now, most if not all of these people send home a % of their wage each week....so tell me, how can a country survive when billions of euro are taken out of it's economy over a period of time.

Mena

not yet wrote: »

Now, most if not all of these people send home a % of their wage each week....so tell me, how can a country survive when billions of euro are taken out of it's economy over a period of time.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that most of not all send a % of their wages home? As an example, I've been in Ireland for eight years now, and not sent a single cent back, as far as I recall.

Motley Crue

The_Minister wrote: »

I've certainly noticed that people are beginning to become resentful of foreigners in recent weeks, and many people seem to feel that they should "all go home". I was actually treated to a conversation where the other party was complaining about "the blacks", and how "none of them work".

Im suprised more people don't read history books.

In 1929 when the Great Depression happened in America the KKK re emerged in their 2nd formation. Some of their literature at the time pointed at the black population having been the cause of the Despression.

When Hitler came to power, he may have been the only one who wanted to kill the Jews, but he wasnt the only one who wanted to remove their money and power....many people felt impoverished because they saw wealth when they had none. Fear swept over the people, as it did in 1929, and they turned to radical thinking such as racism and elected and supported people as such.

History is dotted with examples where radical change leaves people afraid and fearing the worst, looking for someone to blame, and turning to racist groups as a means for their outbursts. Even Ireland has its own factions of the KKK im sorry to inform you....its not something that could never happen here...and its up to the individual to stop the racism by effectively judging their own behaviour

Please click here but be advised

Degsy

You know racism applies not just to white people too?
http://www.blackpanther.org/

not yet

Mena wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think that most of not all send a % of their wages home? As an example, I've been in Ireland for eight years now, and not sent a single cent back, as far as I recall.

My brother has 2 polish guys working for him, both have brought home on average 12-15k per year over the past 5 years. They also say that most of their friends do something simular.

Mena

not yet wrote: »

My brother has 2 polish guys working for him, both have brought home on average 12-15k per year over the past 5 years. They also say that most of their friends do something simular.

Fair enough, my experience is however in the opposite direction.

janullrich

As one person said there has been 1m people come in almost and no we did not look to the future when opening our borders. It is also a fact that most Poles and Eastern Europeans have sent back more money then have invested in Ireland apart for paying their rent. It is also fact as can be seen by Blanchardstown Social Welfare Office on any day during the week that it is very easy for Nigerians to get welfare for themselves and God knows how many kids they have. These are facts not rasism. The problem with the Irish is that they let the borders open to every tom, dick and harry with feck all checking up on who they are. Only now I notice that the border control is tightning up at Dublin Airport without just waiving them through. Apart time I say.

ShooterSF

thelordofcheese wrote: »

because if i'm going to run away from persecution, i'm going to run as far as i fucking can, i'm not going to pop into the country nextdoor.

If you have to ability to not be cynical and think that's the legitimate reason I 'll at least say I admire your views. However I don't agree that it's the reason. Unless these people are really paranoid or powerful enough to be worth chasing all the way to Ireland I don't buy that reason. Maybe my opinion of human nature is a bad reflection of myself though.

Mena

janullrich wrote: »

It is also a fact that most Poles and Eastern Europeans have sent back more money then have invested in Ireland apart for paying their rent.

Can you back this up, since you claim it as fact? I'd be very interested to see the source. Thanks.

janullrich wrote: »

It is also fact as can be seen by Blanchardstown Social Welfare Office on any day during the week that it is very easy for Nigerians to get welfare for themselves and God knows how many kids they have.

If they have been working in Ireland and paying PRSI they are fully entitled to claim welfare. What's the problem here?

Degsy

Mena wrote: »

If they have been working in Ireland and paying PRSI they are fully entitled to claim welfare. What's the problem here?

Because the chances are they havnt been working and paying PRSI.
If you want to work here..apply for a work permit.
if you want to claim benefits..apply for asylum.

Mena

Degsy wrote: »

Because the chances are they havnt been working and paying PRSI.
If you want to work here..apply for a work permit.
if you want to claim benefits..apply for asylum.

What makes you say that? From what I have seen many non-nationals have been made redundant/lost their jobs. They've paid their PRSI and are thus entitled to the benefits.

I'm not saying there's no welfare fraud, but all I can see here are gross generalisations and people jumping to assumptions without knowing the facts.

Degsy

Mena wrote: »

What makes you say that? From what I have seen many non-nationals have been made redundant/lost their jobs. They've paid their PRSI and are thus entitled to the benefits.

I'm not saying there's no welfare fraud, but all I can see here are gross generalisations and people jumping to assumptions without knowing the facts.

Its YOU who doesnt know the facts.
The fact that something like 38% of nigerians were in receipt of welfare payments was a public talking point a few months back.
Migrant workers who have lost thier jobs(as oppsed to asylum seekers),dont tend to claim benefits,they tend to head off home or somewhere else where there are jobs.
Not only is there not "no welfare fraud"..there's a huge problem with foreign people engaging in it.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-welfare-cheaters-who-tried-to-beat-the-system-62263.html

http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/08/nigerian-embassy-in-dublin-says-that.html
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3035&Itemid=38

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=FAJ20080220.xml&Ex=All&Page=2
http://migration.ucc.ie/cdvec.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79369741.html

UP TO 600 children arrived unaccompanied in Ireland last year in what has
been described as a modern-day slavery racket.

The children arrived as asylum seekers from West Africa, mainly Nigeria,
and immigration officers suspect they are part of a social welfare scam.

The children are then passed around to different people who present them to
the social services to claim child benefit. By pretending to be single
parents, they can claim almost 10 times more from the State than childless
immigrants.

The State pays out e8,000 per year in child benefits and it is suspected
that the children may be used to collect welfare checks for different
people.

markesmith

I'm reading a book on the Roma Gypsies at the minute, it talks about all the persecution they got when the Iron Curtain fell down. Some of them had been settled in the area for 400 or more years.

When there's a big change, people's attitudes tend to harden. Javaboy recalled the Depression of 1929 as a good mining ground for the KKK, and the Fascists and Nazis certainly made political capital on it.

I think that recession will have an effect on our attitudes towards outsiders. It will be the same the world over, I'd imagine.

You only need look back through this post, every 3rd or 5th post is venturing outside the PC bracket.

But my point is that the PC culture has essentially ruined any debate about this. You can't talk about "a foreigner" without eyes narrowing.

But with unemployment rising, our priority really should be Joe down the road who just lost his job, and has three young kids to feed. He's just sold his car for peanuts, he can't sell his house, he's not sure if the next paycheque will be in, and all he hears is bad news about the future.

In those circumstances, you can see how the inhumane treatment of a young Islam women at the hands of her mother in might fall down his list of priorities.

And that's all I have to say abou that!

Hank Scorpio

i have absolutely no problem with foreigners who come over here, work hard at there job and respect the fact that there here

I do have problems with people who are here solely to milk the system for whatever they can, be it people who are in college solely for grant money and such things

Degsy

markesmith wrote: »

You only need look back through this post, every 3rd or 5th post is venturing outside the PC bracket.

But my point is that the PC culture has essentially ruined any debate about this. You can't talk about "a foreigner" without eyes narrowing.

But with unemployment rising, our priority really should be Joe down the road who just lost his job, and has three young kids to feed. He's just sold his car for peanuts, he can't sell his house, he's not sure if the next paycheque will be in, and all he hears is bad news about the future.

In those circumstances, you can see how the inhumane treatment of a young Islam women at the hands of her mother in might fall down his list of priorities.

And that's all I have to say abou that!

Its usually people like students and the bewildered who hold those sorts of views,bandying the word "racism" about every couple of minutes and believing the cock and bull stories of con artists from abroad.
The simple fact is that they dont have enough life experience to see through the lies,the cons and the scammers.
When they eventually start work and start paying taxes,they'll begin to care more about what thier money is spent on.

markesmith

Degsy wrote: »

Its usually people like students and the bewildered who hold those sorts of views,bandying the word "racism" about every couple of minutes and believing the cock and bull stories of con artists from abroad.
The simple fact is that they dont have enough life experience to see through the lies,the cons and the scammers.
When they eventually start work and start paying taxes,they'll begin to care more about what thier money is spent on.

Dunno if you're having a go on me with that quote mate, but I'm in my 30s, own business, blah blah. I've had enough life experience to be able to call a spade a spade (so to speak).

The post above yours, by nuxx - that's essentially my viewpoint. He said it more succinctly than I ever could.

Mena

Degsy wrote: »

Its YOU who doesnt know the facts.
The fact that something like 38% of nigerians were in receipt of welfare payments was a public talking point a few months back.
Migrant workers who have lost thier jobs(as oppsed to asylum seekers),dont tend to claim benefits,they tend to head off home or somewhere else where there are jobs.

That's fine, what I was saying, and if you read my post again, is that people are seeing "foreigners" in the dole queue and jumping to the conclusion that they are scamming the system. There's no way in hell they can know this, it's simply a gross generalisation.

The rest of your post has nothing to do with my response. As I said, I am well aware that there is widespread abuse of the welfare system, by nationals and non-nationals alike.

Degsy wrote: »

Not only is there not "no welfare fraud"..there's a huge problem with foreign people engaging in it.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-welfare-cheaters-who-tried-to-beat-the-system-62263.html

http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/08/nigerian-embassy-in-dublin-says-that.html
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3035&Itemid=38

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=FAJ20080220.xml&Ex=All&Page=2
http://migration.ucc.ie/cdvec.htm

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-79369741.html

UP TO 600 children arrived unaccompanied in Ireland last year in what has
been described as a modern-day slavery racket.

The children arrived as asylum seekers from West Africa, mainly Nigeria,
and immigration officers suspect they are part of a social welfare scam.

The children are then passed around to different people who present them to
the social services to claim child benefit. By pretending to be single
parents, they can claim almost 10 times more from the State than childless
immigrants.

The State pays out e8,000 per year in child benefits and it is suspected
that the children may be used to collect welfare checks for different
people.

sozbox

nuxxx wrote: »

i have absolutely no problem with foreigners who come over here, work hard at there job and respect the fact that there here

I do have problems with people who are here solely to milk the system for whatever they can, be it people who are in college solely for grant money and such things

Yes because the college grant is so huge, much better than say, getting a job!

There's no such thing as being in college solely for the grant money. If you don't pass the year you lose the grant so thats good for one year, sounds like a great plan.

gurramok

Mena wrote: »

Can you back this up, since you claim it as fact? I'd be very interested to see the source. Thanks.

Here, happy reading. http://www.baltictu.net/php/news1.php?fn_mode=fullnews&fn_incl=5&fn_id=80

In 2007, Latvian nationals, working in Ireland, transferred EUR 84 million (LVL 59 million) to Latvia, and EUR 39 million (LVL 27 million) so farin 2008, The Sunday Times reports.

According to the Ireland Central Statistics Office, last year, immigrants from Eastern Europe, working in Ireland, sent home three times more money than in 2006 – the sum exceeded EUR 1.5 billion last year.

The Polish community sent home EUR 1.3 billion (LVL 0.9 billion) through banking channels last year. But this does not cover the total amount remitted because not all money transfers are officially recorded. Western Union, a money transfer company, will not divulge the sums it handles.

The Bank of Lithuania said immigrants in Ireland had remitted EUR 136 million (LVL 96 million) last year, around EUR 28 million has been sent to Lithuanian bank accounts so far this year.

The Sunday Times reports that many immigrants are spending only a small proportion of their earnings in Ireland, instead using their wages to support families at home.

Experts have given their opinion to the newspaper that the trait that guest workers earn money in Ireland, but spend it in other countries, could have a negative impact on Ireland's economy.

As reported, according to the estimations, made by the Latvian Embassy in Dublin, currently there could be around 30,000 to 40,000 Latvian nationals working in Ireland, however, it is complicated to come up with precise figures. Less than 30,000 Latvian nationals have received Irish social insurance numbers.

herya

gurramok wrote: »

According to the Ireland Central Statistics Office, last year, immigrants from Eastern Europe, working in Ireland, sent home three times more money than in 2006 – the sum exceeded EUR 1.5 billion last year.

I wonder what's the total amount of money spent by the Irish on Spanish property, NY shopping, Caribbean cruises and Tenerife weddings? TBH that's where the real money transfers abroad are.

thelordofcheese

herya wrote: »

I wonder what's the total amount of money spent by the Irish on Spanish property, NY shopping, Caribbean cruises and Tenerife weddings? TBH that's where the real money transfers abroad are.

Don't forget galloping up north to do the shopping.

Plug

Im standing by my guns, the eastern european people have helped fcuk up this country money wise.
They send most of the money home, spend very little and 200000 are working here. Imagine if the irish people had 200000 extra jobs:)

IRELAND FOR THE IRISH!!!

gurramok

herya wrote: »

I wonder what's the total amount of money spent by the Irish on Spanish property, NY shopping, Caribbean cruises and Tenerife weddings? TBH that's where the real money transfers abroad are.

You'll find the money spent on property which probably makes up most of what Irish people spent was borrowed.
I back this up with a fact(yes:), from Economics forum) that 80% of Irish private debt is mortgage related.

NY shopping should of been clamped down on via customs checking what travellers had over the years but oh no, nothing was done to hurt the middle classes who did that type of shopping.

Degsy

gurramok wrote: »

You'll find the money spent on property which probably makes up most of what Irish people spent was borrowed.
I back this up with a fact(yes:), from Economics forum) that 80% of Irish private debt is mortgage related.

NY shopping should of been clamped down on via customs checking what travellers had over the years but oh no, nothing was done to hurt the middle classes who did that type of shopping.

You will also be aware of the considerable number of irish idiots who re-mortaged thier homes to purchase "investment" properties in bulgaria,dubai and cape verde.
The true extent to which these people have been ripped-off wont emerge for a while untill they start trying to sell in large numbers only to find no re-sale market at all.
In some cases people havnt even had thier property built,they were happy to part with deposits only to have the agents do a runner with thier money.

OPENROAD

Plug wrote: »

Im standing by my guns, the eastern european people have helped fcuk up this country money wise.
They send most of the money home, spend very little and 200000 are working here. Imagine if the irish people had 200000 extra jobs:)

IRELAND FOR THE IRISH!!!

And would you say England for The English, America for the Americans,Australia for the Australians ?