N24 Limerick-Waterford upgrade

spacetweek

Tremelo wrote: »

I heard today that the EIS for the Pallasgreen to Cahir scheme has been released. I'm going to try to get a copy.

I am seeing this more and more as a really crucial scheme and indeed a surrogate in the medium term for the M20.

On the existing N20, commuters to Limerick from Croom and commuters to Cork from Mallow inwards are both using the good parts of the road. It's only the central section of the N20 that is the only really bad part. It's longer, but an N24/M8 routing would suffice for many years.

Master and commander

one word - pipe dream.

This will never happen, not enough traffic to justify it not to mention no money. It will be fine if it gets a resurface here and there every few years.

Amtmann

I firmly believe that it will happen. It'll cost about 250 million to 300 million, will bypass 5 settlements including Tipp town, Bansha, and Oola, and will save lives. Just Google n24 fatality and you'll see Pallasgreen mentioned more often than is healthy. It carries a fair AADT and is highly strategic. This is one of the top ten schemes in order of priority imo.

Once permission is granted, it could even be built piecemeal.

Amtmann

OK, so I acquired the document in question. It's not an EIS, but a scoping document for the EIS, which is at an advanced stage.

Here is the map of the route, from west to east:

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The M8 is incorrectly labelled in photo 6.

Amtmann

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veryangryman

A good read Tremolo

But I think that the fact that this is local to you is making you more optimistic than you would otherwise be.

I think that the development of Rosslare as a port and the upgrades of N25/N11 and even some of the roads from the Welsh Ports to M4 before this is considered a priority.

If we got all that, then you can seriously consider using the route as Galway/Limerick/Midwest areas ticket to London/Channel Tunnel.

Probably not in our lifetimes. Id love to be wrong.

Amtmann

You could be right about my location affecting my perspective (even though I am now based in Cork again full-time). However, I still place this scheme in the top ten, behind some of the schemes you mentioned and behind the Galway Bypass and the N28. But it's still a critical scheme. I believe it will be built because it is of national importance, linking as it does more than one region (and arguably three).

Chris_5339762

I've never driven the road, but I cant help but think 2+2 with various compact GSJs is overkill. 2+2 it may well be worth building, but spending the cash on GSJs I think is overkill. Roundabout junctions would do for all these - there simply wouldnt be enough traffic for ANY of these roundabouts to get badly congested.

Amtmann

They look like LILOs to me. This scheme will connect with the dumbbell interchange at Cahir, and the 2+1 Cahir Bypass.

I think that LILOs are preferable to roundabouts. A 2+2 with appropriate restrictions could be given a speed limit of 120km/h at some point in the future. I doubt if you could have that with roundabouts. Also, in general, I think it's best to keep traffic moving. But in terms of this scheme, I have no great preference either way to be honest. Either junction option would be an astronomical improvement on the current set-up.

L1011

UK allows 112km/h with roundabouts. 120 wouldn't be going insane...

Wild Bill

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've never driven the road, but I cant help but think 2+2 with various compact GSJs is overkill. 2+2 it may well be worth building, but spending the cash on GSJs I think is overkill. Roundabout junctions would do for all these - there simply wouldnt be enough traffic for ANY of these roundabouts to get badly congested.

Bit of perspective here. The difference between roundabouts and GS junctions to this scheme would be what? €30 million?

That's about 0.0015% of our current annual overspend (expenditure-tax revenue)!

Or about 0.000375% of the minimum we tossed into the banks in a few hours one night in September 2008, without any analysis, any information, any long debates and trainspotting arguments about roundabouts!

Frankly, worrying about minor "over-specification " on fairly moderate infrastructure projects is akin to focusing on a scratch on the back of your hand while your carotid arteries are severed and pumping blood.

There is something surreal about it. :cool:

Amtmann

I believe that until schemes like the N24 are done, it is premature to speak of us having a world class road network.

There's precious little in the way of high quality connections between the motorways at all. A dualled N24 would be an excellent addition to the network with truly national significance.

charlemont

Nice work Tremelo,
With regards to Junction ten on the M8, It appears from the map the junction layout will change from a dumbbell to a single large roundabout which proves the junction should have had a better design, Personally I like it the way it is now but it will cost a wee bit to upgrade and lots of disruption too.

The route itself is good, Iv noticed the Monard area will see significant road changes, Just hope the road from the church to the garage doesn't become a rat run.

A roundabout should have been included on the N74 for the 2 LiLos to join as it would improve traffic flow at what will quiet likely be a busy junction as this will be the new entrance to Tipp Town.

charlemont

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've never driven the road, but I cant help but think 2+2 with various compact GSJs is overkill. 2+2 it may well be worth building, but spending the cash on GSJs I think is overkill. Roundabout junctions would do for all these - there simply wouldnt be enough traffic for ANY of these roundabouts to get badly congested.

Try driving it before you knock it, I promise you its a route you wont ever want to drive again.

Amtmann

charlemont wrote: »

A roundabout should have been included on the N74 for the 2 LiLos to join as it would improve traffic flow at what will quiet likely be a busy junction as this will be the new entrance to Tipp Town.

It will, and from the N24/N74 junction to Tipp Town it will be completely inadequate. That section is extremely narrow, incredibly bendy, and is littered with private entrances on the bendy bits. For the sake of two kilometres, they should realign the N74 as well.

I anticipate lots of objection from the burghers of Tipperary as they seek a second junction for the town. One will be perfectly adequate; but the N74 needs to be fixed for those 2km in my opinion.

charlemont

I'm not trying to contradict you but have a wee zoom in where the N24 and N74 meet, The LiLos appear to join the N74 as T junctions unless there is to be two small roundabouts there.

Yes, The road to Tipp is atrocious there and your right some upgrade of the N74 should be done.

One junction should be enough for the town, Hopefully the moaners wont be out in force like Buttevants were about the M20, Actually the original N8 action group was shortened to NAG, That says it all really.

Tragedy

I drove the N24 recently, and other than some badly potholed sections don't get what's so terrible about it? Not trolling, not saying the scheme isn't needed or anything, just curious what makes it such a bad road as is.
Also did 1,000 miles from Dublin to Waterford, Waterford to Cork, Waterford to Ballybunnion, Ballybunnion to Cork and all over North/Western Waterford and North Cork. The N24 was a beautiful road compared to most of the ones I drove :P

Amtmann

charlemont wrote: »

I'm not trying to contradict you but have a wee zoom in where the N24 and N74 meet, The LiLos appear to join the N74 as T junctions unless there is to be two small roundabouts there.

They do, but I'm still counting at as only one 'junction' - i.e. on theoretical N24 signage, there would be only one numbered exit for Tipp. It'd be like the Roscrea exit on the M7 - two T-junctions make up junction 22.

Amtmann

Tragedy wrote: »

I drove the N24 recently, and other than some badly potholed sections don't get what's so terrible about it? Not trolling, not saying the scheme isn't needed or anything, just curious what makes it such a bad road as is.
Also did 1,000 miles from Dublin to Waterford, Waterford to Cork, Waterford to Ballybunnion, Ballybunnion to Cork and all over North/Western Waterford and North Cork. The N24 was a beautiful road compared to most of the ones I drove :P

From Cahir to Tipp Town there is only one place to overtake safely, and almost the entire distance is full of private entrances. It is extremely bendy, crosses a railway line via a narrow, bendy, treacherous bridge, and if you are caught behind a lorry or tractor, you will be there for a long time.

Tipperary town is choked with traffic and requires relief.

Tipperary to Limerick junction has very poor sightlines and has one dangerous humpback bridge that makes it unsafe for pedestrians and cyclists.

There is a stretch where you can overtake between Limerick Junction and Ballykisteen, but the private entrance to Ballykisteen itself can make this unsafe.

Between Ballykisteen and Monard the road is very narrow and bendy and fatalities have occurred.

Monard to Oola is straight and grand, apart from the private accesses.

Oola Bridge is 19th-century and inadequate, and dangerous for pedestrians.

The section between Oola and Pallasgreen is very mixed. You can overtake on some sections, but on others you daren't - particularly close to the infamous 'Brooks Bridge'.

The scheme endeth west of Pallasgreen, but from Pallasgreen to the M7 the road is dangerously over capacity with an obscenely placed petrol station and dual carriageway traffic volumes whizzing by. The scene of many a fatality. This part will be replaced by the Ballysimon to Pallasgreen scheme.

I drove to UL four days a week from Cahir from September 2010 to April 2011. The journey took anywhere from 55 minutes to 1h 25 minutes, depending on whether or not I was stuck behind a lorry. I saw two head on collisions and several minor crashes. The present alignment simply isn't fit for purpose, and I suspect AADT would be higher if not for the crappiness of the route.

Tragedy

How is that different to almost any N road though? I couldn't find AADT figures, and the one time I used it it was busy in fairness, so I won't argue against traffic dictating a new 2+2. However the talk about the road being terrible just makes me think those people haven't driven anywhere else in Ireland to be honest.

Amtmann

Tragedy wrote: »

How is that different to almost any N road though? I couldn't find AADT figures, and the one time I used it it was busy in fairness, so I won't argue against traffic dictating a new 2+2. However the talk about the road being terrible just makes me think those people haven't driven anywhere else in Ireland to be honest.

I've driven more than most.

The nature and frequency of the railway bridges alone make it a very distinctive National primary road. It's also an interurban (Limerick to Waterford) and it connects 3 motorways, arguably 4 if you include the M18, which it provides access to.

Very few other n-roads are as strategic, and it was rightly recognised as such in NDPs and in Transport 21.

Tragedy

Tremelo wrote: »

I've driven more than most.

The nature and frequency of the railway bridges alone make it a very distinctive National primary road. It's also an interurban (Limerick to Waterford) and it connects 3 motorways, arguably 4 if you include the M18, which it provides access to.

Very few other n-roads are as strategic, and it was rightly recognised as such in NDPs and in Transport 21.

Is it any worse than the N80? Or the N72? Or the N20? Or the N62? Driven them all and I don't see how it is. I could mention a lot of N roads from Cork/Kerry, but as they don't link Motorways/cities I won't bother.

It's also rather facile to argue that it connects the M9/M8/M7. Sure, it does, but the vast majority of drivers using the interurban motorways will never use an orbital route from the end of one Motorway to the end of another. It's a good thing to have, but it's not as incredibly important as some seem to try make it out be.

As I said, if it has the capacity that a 2+2 is needed, then by all means, they should build it - but having driven it and the majority of other N roads in Cork/Kerry/Waterford and a good few more around Ireland, a lot of the comments about how poor a road it is on this thread come across as hyperbolic and locals arguing that their local road is the worst in Ireland.

touts

This road should be a critical element of the national infrastructure as it allows freight from the entire western seaboard to access Rosslate port. Certainly it's upgrade should be a higher priority than the proposed motorway to bring fans from Cork to Limerick for Munster matches.

However the reality is this will not happen for 20-30 years. The money isn't there. This isn't an EIS it is a scoping document for the EIS. No doubt the EIS will be dragged out for 2-3 years. Then planning permission starts and it will be bombarded with objections to protect farms, snails and viking toilets. A transport department with an instruction not to spend money will have no motivation to deal with these objections in a speedy fashion. Then by the time the whole thing is ready to go in 10 years if the money isn't there (and by all accounts it won't be) then the government minister can simply reset the whole project by saying it should be a motorway and instructing his department to go back to the drawing board and come up with an "future proof" design that will be better value for money in the long term. Shift the route slightly to require a new EIS and get in more objections and bang there goes another 10 years.

Amtmann

Tragedy wrote: »

Is it any worse than the N80? Or the N72? Or the N20? Or the N62? Driven them all and I don't see how it is. I could mention a lot of N roads from Cork/Kerry, but as they don't link Motorways/cities I won't bother.

N20: No. N20 takes priority (obviously).
N72/N62: Are national secondaries, not primaries, and there's a school of thought that favours detrunking the N62 altogether. Not comparable in the least.
N80: see below

It's also rather facile to argue that it connects the M9/M8/M7.

No one argued anything of the kind, because there is no need to argue it: It does connect these roads, albeit the termini of two of them.

Sure, it does, but the vast majority of drivers using the interurban motorways will never use an orbital route from the end of one Motorway to the end of another. It's a good thing to have, but it's not as incredibly important as some seem to try make it out be.

The majority won't; but driving patterns are likely to change somewhat if good connections between the motorways are established (I still think that a midlands corridor - i.e. N80 or similar - would be a fantastic addition to the network down the line to provide superb connectivity between the motorways).

In addition, if the M9 stimulates additional economic activity in Waterford, then an economically stronger Waterford can engage more with an M7-enhanced Limerick via a dualled N24. I think you are not giving due consideration to the fact that the N24 connects the cores of two regions and provides access to the west from the south-east. This is what separates it from your N71s, N72s, N73s, and N62s.

As I said, if it has the capacity that a 2+2 is needed, then by all means, they should build it - but having driven it and the majority of other N roads in Cork/Kerry/Waterford and a good few more around Ireland, a lot of the comments about how poor a road it is on this thread come across as hyperbolic and locals arguing that their local road is the worst in Ireland.

No one said it's the worst road in Ireland. Whatever about hyperbole, that's a strawman statement. Most roads in Cork and Kerry are not interurban. You compared the N62 and N72 to the N24, which is inappropriate. Compare like with like, and consider multi-region connectivity, population, and economic activity at either end of any proposed scheme. The N24 scores highly on all counts - N72 and N62 do not.

Also, I could be wrong, but are you implying that all n roads in the southern half of the country are equally meritorious? For example, what is the point of rhetorically asking if "the N62 is as bad"? (Actually, it's better from Thurles to Roscrea, not that it matters). I'm wondering if your angle is that the N24 shouldn't go ahead of the national secondaries that you mentioned (or that none at all should proceed. I'm not sure what your point is, except maybe that you're being contrarian for the sake of it).

Well, it will go before them because it should (and not only that, but because there are no comparable N72/N62 upgrades in the pipeline because they're not warranted). But an upgraded N24 should come in behind the M20, N28, N22 NRR, and several others.

In any case, as was inevitable, this thread has been blown off course by people bleating about road x being worse than road z. This is a thread about a particular scheme and that scheme's design. Multiple other threads exist in the forum where scheme priority is discussed. I personally find it a tedious exercise, if only because it's been done to death here already.

Tragedy

Tremelo wrote: »

N20: No. N20 takes priority (obviously).
N72/N62: Are national secondaries, not primaries, and there's a school of thought that favours detrunking the N62 altogether. Not comparable in the least.
N80: see below

Takes priority for what? I haven't argued priority anywhere. I also don't see how two N roads condition in Ireland isn't comparable.

No one argued anything of the kind, because there is no need to argue it: It does connect these roads, albeit the termini of two of them.

It's facile because saying that makes it sound more important than the actual reality of it is.

In addition, if the M9 stimulates additional economic activity in Waterford, then an economically stronger Waterford can engage more with an M7-enhanced Limerick via a dualled N24. I think you are not giving due consideration to the fact that the N24 connects the cores of two regions and provides access to the west from the south-east. This is what separates it from your N71s, N72s, N73s, and N62s.

What? Seriously, what are you even talking about now?
If the M9 stimulates additional economic activity in Waterford, then Limerick, which has been enhanced by the M7 will engage more with Waterford because...what? I study Economics and even I'm lost at what you're trying to argue here.

No one said it's the worst road in Ireland. Whatever about hyperbole, that's a strawman statement. Most roads in Cork and Kerry are not interurban. You compared the N62 and N72 to the N24, which is inappropriate. Compare like with like, and consider multi-region connectivity, population, and economic activity at either end of any proposed scheme. The N24 scores highly on all counts - N72 and N62 do not.

What? I was talking about the quality of the road based on posts by quite a few users on this thread arguing that the N24 was in a terrible state and my having driven it recently. Why are you talking about multi-region connectivity, population and economic activity?

Also, I could be wrong, but are you implying that all n roads in the southern half of the country are equally meritorious? For example, what is the point of rhetorically asking if "the N62 is as bad"? (Actually, it's better from Thurles to Roscrea, not that it matters). I'm wondering if you're angle is that the N24 shouldn't go ahead of the national secondaries that you mentioned (or that none at all should proceed. I'm not sure what you're point is, except maybe that you're being contrarian for the sake of it).

Meritorious of what? Read what I wrote above.

Seriously, your essay-like reply to criticisms I never made really does make me think you're another "my local road is more important and in a worse state than anyone elses local road". No other way to explain your rabid defense against criticisms/opposition I never made.

First post:
"Not trolling, not saying the scheme isn't needed or anything, just curious what makes it such a bad road as is."

touts

Set priority based on infrastructural benefit. The N24 opens up Rosslare port to exporters along the western seaboard thus providing an alternative to the overcrowded Dublin port. Other N roads linking two medium sized Irish country towns mainly for commuters would be a lower priority.

Amtmann

Tragedy wrote: »

What?

I'm not engaging with you any more.

touts

Tragedy wrote: »

First post:
"Not trolling, not saying the scheme isn't needed or anything, just curious what makes it such a bad road as is."

During the day you are lucky to reach 80kph on it on the best parts and for many stretches (Bansha-Tipp) it is dangerous to do that speed even if there is not a truck ahead of you. Some segments are so dangerous they are already limited to 50kph (coming near Cahir). It is regularly closed with fatal accidents. Some of the bridges on it are apparently structurally dangerous (e.g. Oola) and work to stabilise them seems to be slow at best. There is at least one other bridge on it that is almost 50-60 degree turn and only wide enough to take two cars so god help you if you meet a wide load. Pallasgreen, Monard, Oola are extremely dangerous for locals trying to cross the road. Traffic coming into Tipp town is regularly backed up a mile or more back to the Dunnes roundabout. This has created a large number of lethal rat-runs along country lanes surrounding the town.

I'm sure many other routes can cite similar issues but I doubt many will be worse than the N24.

Amtmann

Tragedy wrote: »

What? I was talking about the quality of the road based on posts by quite a few users on this thread arguing that the N24 was in a terrible state and my having driven it recently. Why are you talking about multi-region connectivity, population and economic activity?

I'll answer this. Because those are the benchmarks against which 'quality' is judged - i.e. is a road fit for purpose and does it provide an acceptable level of service given what it is required to do. Frankly I don't know how a conversation about roads can proceed without reference to connectivity, population, and economic activity.

The conversation is decontextualised otherwise, e.g. there's a bend on the L-road outside my front door that's worse than any bend on the N24. Therefore the N24 is of higher quality than the L-road, except that there's never been a fatality on the L-road, there's no congestion on it, and journey times along it are consistent. It is fit for purpose and its quality is adequate. The N24 is superior in purely physical terms, but because it is not fit for purpose, its 'quality' is diminished.

spacetweek

touts wrote: »

Set priority based on infrastructural benefit. The N24 opens up Rosslare port to exporters along the western seaboard thus providing an alternative to the overcrowded Dublin port. Other N roads linking two medium sized Irish country towns mainly for commuters would be a lower priority.

Agreed. The N24's strategic importance (Limerick-M8-Waterford and in a larger sense, Rosslare Port-Shannon) has been demonstrated over and over. That's why I don't share your pessimism about viking toilets. I see this scheme happening within 10 years at most.