Garda vs Integra

Gavin

Trojan911 wrote: »

Qualified in what? Vehicle pusuit? Is He/She? You do not have to be a Garda to grasp the seriousness or potential dangers of a high speed pursuit.

True. Which was my point.

Many, many fabulous years in the Met, learning many skills, including vehicle pursuit. Your opinion is stemmed from same? You've been there? or just from what you see & hear on the telly/internet and then speculate?

I'm an uninformed rube I'm afraid. oh wait a sec

You do not have to be a Garda to grasp the seriousness or potential dangers of a high speed pursuit.

A totally innocent person is dead. All for what? Not only is it risky but dangerous.

That was an unfortunate accident which seemingly was due to poor equipment maintenance.

Are all vehicle pursuits really necessary ? When & Where do you draw the line? Do we have to wait for more innocent fatalities?

My point is that this judgement was obviously made by the Gardai given the information available to them and their awareness of the environment. Information that you and I don't have so second guessing is just that, guessing.

Given that there were 7 cars involved, I can only assume that someone of reasonable seniority was aware and chose to allow the chase to continue. Would that be the case ?

brayblue24

I have lurked on this since the start but feel I must now add my tuppence worth.

Properly trained Garda drivers are trained to be alert to all road conditions and possibilities. Successful completion of the training course is rated highly enough to suffice as entry to the Institute of Advanced Motorists without the need to take their separate tests. That is why I have such a problem with "Chief's Permission", a situation where the holding of a full driving licence allows one to drive a patrol car in emergency situations. It is a cheap alternative to proper training and is unfair on the driver and their observer and also to the general public. As long as those drivers were qualified drivers then have no doubt they are skilled, competent drivers.

As an earlier poster said it was not the Gardai who chose to drive that route-it was the driver of the Integra.

Other posters wake up and smell the roses as Verb says. Those UK and US shows are EDITED. The same could be done here in a production room.

Most likely nobody here (myself included) knows what that Integra did but if that pursuit was allowed to continue then it was not a minor matter. The policy in place is stringent regarding pursuits and any driver of a patrol car who chooses to ignore a direction to cease in a pursuit is leaving themselves wide open-in a major way.

Those Garda detractors posting (you know who you are) I ask you this- if the driver of that car had raped or murdered a member of your family would you have any problem with that pursuit or would it suffice if instead the car crew told you they had an idea who he was and instead they would arrest him maybe after the weekend? No, I didn't think so.

Trojan911

Verb wrote: »

That was an unfortunate accident which seemingly was due to poor equipment maintenance.

The collision was the result of the condition of the tyres, the condition of the road surface and the speed at which the patrol car was travelling at. Source

Verb wrote: »

Given that there were 7 cars involved, I can only assume that someone of reasonable seniority was aware and chose to allow the chase to continue. Would that be the case ?

It would appear so. But the questions that spring to my mind would be,

1. Out of all those vehicles in pursuit, how many drivers were qualified to engage?

2. Why were so many vehicles engaged in that pursuit?

3. Where was the helicopter?

We all want AGS to do a great job, but as correctly pointed out in a previous post, more training, money & equipment is needed to accomplish this.

Relevant

Trojan911 wrote: »

3. Where was the helicopter?

On another call, undergoing maintenance, grounded due to weather, pursuit may have been close to airport and as such in a no fly zone...

bunk

Trojan911 wrote: »

It would appear so. But the questions that spring to my mind would be,

1. Out of all those vehicles in pursuit, how many drivers were qualified to engage?

2. Why were so many vehicles engaged in that pursuit?

3. Where was the helicopter?

We all want AGS to do a great job, but as correctly pointed out in a previous post, more training, money & equipment is needed to accomplish this.

before i go any further, i am a member and i have the standard car course done, so here it goes.

1. more than likely none, wether they have courses done or not, there is no pursuit training given whatsoever in the standard or advanced course, there is a completly seperate course for pursuit training mainly for specialist units.

2. from my experience it seems to be the more the merrier when it comes to pursuits, there is no set procedure for initiating or calling off pursuits, its at the members discretion unless the inspector from control terminates the pursuit.

3. i was'nt there so dont know. but i believe theres still are only 2 helicopters and definatly one plane for the whole country, also how long had this chase been going on when this was filmed, how long did it last after, it can take approx 20 minutes to get the helicoptor up and to your position at best and thats when its available.

not havin a go, just my two cents on the questions you asked.

Trojan911

brayblue24 wrote: »

Most likely nobody here (myself included) knows what that Integra did but if that pursuit was allowed to continue then it was not a minor matter.

Define minor. What, in your opinion, would give grounds for this particular pursuit?

brayblue24 wrote: »

Those Garda detractors posting (you know who you are) I ask you this- if the driver of that car had raped or murdered a member of your family would you have any problem with that pursuit or would it suffice if instead the car crew told you they had an idea who he was and instead they would arrest him maybe after the weekend? No, I didn't think so.

Ok, now flip the coin over to the other side. A member of your family is knocked down by a Garda car responding to, what I would describe, as a minor call & subsequently dies as a result of it. Oh and by the way, they were going to the wrong address, and it wouldn't have happened if they had been given the correct address.

Are you saying you wouldn't question this and demand answers. No, I don't think so.

I'm not having a pop but think about it. What justifies this type of driving?

brayblue24

1. It's not my call to define "minor" that's why the Inspector in control is on the money he/she is

<SNIP>

As regards having a pop no problem, I believe you have a point to make and it's your call how you make it. Your posts are relevant and accepted by me as such. No offence taken here mate.

Trojan911

brayblue24 wrote: »

1. It's not my call to define "minor" that's why the Inspector in control is on the money he/she is

2. I won't speak of that collision here or elsewhere and I don't think it's appropriate for anybody else to do so either as it is my understanding that it's not dealt with yet. I am, however, open to contradiction on that. Either way I consider it as appropriate to talk about that as I do when anybody is killed by way of a traffic accident where I wasn't there to witness it first hand.

As regards having a pop no problem, I believe you have a point to make and it's your call how you make it. Your posts are relevant and accepted by me as such. No offence taken here mate.

No prob, what I have sourced re the death is already in the public domain and was used as an example of what can & did happen and very well may happen again in the future.

However, the questions still stand to yourself and others (if you wish to answer them), what, in your opinion, would give grounds for this particular pursuit?

What do you feel justifies several police vehicles both marked & unmarked, driving at speed, through a residential estate during the afternoon?

The previous responses are interesting on what people think from both sides of the fence.

Turner

In the last few years (2-3) i know personally of approx 5 deaths that ocurred during garda pursuits. All of which the escaping driver or passengers were the ones killed.

If the media dont get a hold of the fact the gardai were in pursuit the gardai are not very quick to release it. They have to now inform the Garda Ombudsman however but they are not obliged to release it to the media.

Family members always want to keep it quiet as well. Unless a reporter happens to stumble into the public inquest in the coroners court it normally gets kept firmly swept under the carpet by the family.

Pursuits are very dangerous, we are just lucky in this country that due to the high level of training that our trained garda drivers get we have seen very few civillian deaths. Although they are not trained in pursuit scenarios they are trained to keep their vehicle on the road and know their limits and follow until the escaping driver is identified or crashes.

In reality Gardai on Chiefs permission are not allowed engage in pursuits, although it is not law it is a disciplinary offence should something go wrong and somebody innocent gets injured or killed.

brayblue24

Personally I am hugely reluctant to use lights and sirens for reasons of safety and always have been. I do not engage in pursuit of stolen vehicles. I would pursue a car that had been involved in a serious criminal act and by that I mean robbery, serious assault etc or others of that gravity. It's not worth it to anyone otherwise. That's my opinion anyhoo.

Hope that answers, Trojan.

Eru

Trojan911 wrote: »

Really, with that type of reply it does not surprise me the AGS comes under so much criticism. You don't appear to grasp the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by all involved.

Im sure you have much more experience and training in high speed driving

Trojan911 wrote: »

That pursuit should have been limited to two vehicles with the deployment of the helicopter to monitor from the sky & direct other vehicles to areas where stinger could be deployed or where it could be stopped safely away from a residential estate. If the helicopter was not available then the pursuit should have been called off in the interests of safety to all, IMEO.

Good call, let criminals do what they want. Only stop decent drivers who arent breaking the law. Crime would go way down, well actually it wouldnt just recorded arrests and prosecutions would.

What about armed suspects? Allowed go on their merry way if they ignore our polite requests to hand over the weapon?

You obviously dont recall the high court decision that Gardai are responsible for ensuring peoples safety from criminals once they become aware of criminal activity. Or in fact, professional negligence.

Trojan911 wrote: »

This unacceptable incident cost a person their life when it involved a speeding patrol car, which was going to the wrong address.

Whats the address got to do with anything? And if you recall, it was the state of the vehicle and not the driver that was blamed.

As for your question, how in gods name are we supposed to know why a criminal is fleeing from us? It could be because his tax is out or because hes a wanted IRA man smuggling drugs and guns to Limerick. We dont know until afterwards

Eru

Trojan911 wrote: »

Many, many fabulous years in the Met, learning many skills, including vehicle pursuit.

How long have reserves being given advanced driver training?

donvito99

flyton5 wrote: »

christmas eve would be an excellent idea....im not sure the residents of rathgar would be too happy thou as they depend on the guards in rathmines to control the mini riots falling out of a certain pub...after the past pupils of a certain school have a few too many and decide to take up irish dancing on cars...

Which pub, I live in da area, The Rathmines inn, Tramway, Days Hotel, Slatterys?

Traumadoc

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You obviously dont recall the high court decision that Gardai are responsible for ensuring peoples safety from criminals once they become aware of criminal activity. Or in fact, professional negligence.

I think the point is that by engaging in a high speed chase, the police are putting peoples lives in danger.

It is a difficult call, but that is why many police forces around the world have banned or restricted them.

http://www.kristieslaw.org/

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Good call, let criminals do what they want.

They appear to be doing just that anyway.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Whats the address got to do with anything?

Read the article carefully again.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

And if you recall, it was the state of the vehicle and not the driver that was blamed.

Interesting point. Was the officer driving a defective vehicle then? Was it not inspected by the officer prior to signing it out for the tour of duty?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

As for your question, how in gods name are we supposed to know why a criminal is fleeing from us? It could be because his tax is out or because hes a wanted IRA man smuggling drugs and guns to Limerick. We dont know until afterwards

The questions were:

What, in your opinion, would give grounds for this particular pursuit?

What do you feel justifies several police vehicles both marked & unmarked, driving at speed, through a residential estate during the afternoon?

Not: Why was that car apparently fleeing from AGS?

Eru

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think the point is that by engaging in a high speed chase, the police are putting peoples lives in danger.

It is a difficult call, but that is why many police forces around the world have banned or restricted them.

http://www.kristieslaw.org/

I dont see that on that website or the sites that this one links to.

No one wants us to chase criminals? Fair enough but I want you all to remember this when a criminal that could have been caught isnt and goes on to commit crime and hurt innocent people.

In fact I see Trojan has just followed up by stating criminals are running around freely but yet, has posted multiple times condeming Garda efforts to apprehend a criminal. You sir, are a hypocrite

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

How long have reserves being given advanced driver training?

How long have you been in charge of flipping the eggs in the catering dept? Actually no, clarify your last as it makes no sense.

Satan Polaroid

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I dont see that on that website or the sites that this one links to.

No one wants us to chase criminals? Fair enough but I want you all to remember this when a criminal that could have been caught isnt and goes on to commit crime and hurt innocent people.

In fact I see Trojan has just followed up by stating criminals are running around freely but yet, has posted multiple times condeming Garda efforts to apprehend a criminal. You sir, are a hypocrite

Can't anyone question Garda strategy or behaviour without you throwing the toys out of the pram?

We will never learn unless we can take on board constructive criticism, analyse it and see where we can improve.

oeb

Jumping in a little bit late in this thread, but some of the naivety of some of the people in this thread seems shocking. If this scum bag in the integra had avoided the pursuit (because AGS had lets say refused to follow him into the estate for safety reasons), and he had proceeded to knock down a child, or shoot someone half an hour later, you would be the exact same people coming here and posting: "Why did they not follow him, this person is dead because they don't do their job properly, waste of tax payers money blah blah blah blah".

The AGS in Ireland are understaffed, they are illequipped and they do not have the same level of training (re:persuit etc) as some of the other police forces around the world, but they are a government agency, and they have to rely on government funding for these things. And of course, if the government decided to drop another billion on the AGS you would be the same people in here whining about how teachers are getting fired when another billion is being wasted on the AGS.

Where does all this come from? Do you feel that you are victimised by the guards or something? These lads are only doing their jobs. The vast majority of garda that I have met in the past have worked hard at breaking their balls for eejits who seem to think the cops are the ones to worry about. Show a bit of respect, and have a bit of faith that someone who does this for a living probably has a bit better judgement in most scenarios like this than some random bloke on the internet.

But of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure the next crime that is stopped by the actions of AGS (That meets your standards of course) will see you all rushing here to post big long threads about how good they are at their jobs, and how they should all get medals.

They do a thankless job lads.

Eru

oeb wrote: »

Jumping in a little bit late in this thread, but some of the naivety of some of the people in this thread seems shocking. If this scum bag in the integra had avoided the pursuit (because AGS had lets say refused to follow him into the estate for safety reasons), and he had proceeded to knock down a child, or shoot someone half an hour later, you would be the exact same people coming here and posting: "Why did they not follow him, this person is dead because they don't do their job properly, waste of tax payers money blah blah blah blah".

The AGS in Ireland are understaffed, they are illequipped and they do not have the same level of training (re:persuit etc) as some of the other police forces around the world, but they are a government agency, and they have to rely on government funding for these things. And of course, if the government decided to drop another billion on the AGS you would be the same people in here whining about how teachers are getting fired when another billion is being wasted on the AGS.

Where does all this come from? Do you feel that you are victimised by the guards or something? These lads are only doing their jobs. The vast majority of garda that I have met in the past have worked hard at breaking their balls for eejits who seem to think the cops are the ones to worry about. Show a bit of respect, and have a bit of faith that someone who does this for a living probably has a bit better judgement in most scenarios like this than some random bloke on the internet.

But of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure the next crime that is stopped by the actions of AGS (That meets your standards of course) will see you all rushing here to post big long threads about how good they are at their jobs, and how they should all get medals.

They do a thankless job lads.

Thats my point. No one is being constructive just naive.


Trojan,
You were a reserve in the MET. I was under the belief that reserves do not drive.

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Trojan,
You were a reserve in the MET. I was under the belief that reserves do not drive.

Sweeping statement, can you back that up with proof?

Traumadoc

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I dont see that on that website or the sites that this one links to.

No one wants us to chase criminals? Fair enough but I want you all to remember this when a criminal that could have been caught isnt and goes on to commit crime and hurt innocent people.

I said it was a tough call, there are lots of times when garda cannot apprehend criminals, ( look at all the media comments about Limerick)but you nearly always get them in the end.
You do have a duty to protect the innocent. It is a balance.
If no one is in control of a 25 car chase who decides it is too dangerous to continue, or do you feel it is never too dangerous?

metman

Traumadoc wrote: »

If no one is in control of a 25 car chase who decides it is too dangerous to continue, or do you feel it is never too dangerous?

Pursuits are tightly controlled here for the reasons raised in this thread. More often than not we'll let a suspect vehicle go rather than putting other road users or pedestrians at risk.

On account of the dangers involved, even response trained drivers can only engage in the initial phase of a pursuit and must call for specialist pursuit trained drivers to take over. If none are available, a pursuit will be called off. If the air support unit is available it will take control of the pursuit as 'ground commander' and can downlink footage of the pursuit to the Yard where it will be up to the Duty Inspector there to make a decision as to whether to allow the pursuit or terminate.

I can't comment on the pursuit shown in the footage, as I wasn't privy to the circumstances, but such high-speed 'car-chases' can be granted permission to continue pursuit, it all depends on the circumstances.

deadwood

Trojan911 wrote: »

Really, with that type of reply it does not surprise me the AGS comes under so much criticism. You don't appear to grasp the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by all involved.

I grasp the seriousness of my job every day I go into work to police a large area, on my own, day and night equipped with less than a security guard in a decent shopping mall.

I grasp the seriousness every time I attend a traffic collision, where idiots like these guys wrap themselves around a tree or hurt an innocent bystander. I grasp the seriousness of these situations when I have to knock on a strangers door to tell them their child is in a hospital or morgue.

I grasp the seriousness of confronting drunken yobs while the nearest help will take the longest 10 minutes you will ever sweat, realising the yobs are equipped better than me.

Unfortunately, there is always someone who, with no knowledge of the complete story, will jump at the chance to criticise us. These are often the same people who will complain most about inaction, depending on their audience.

I post here to interract with other members of Emergency Services, who deal with the wrong end of this great nation every day instead of doing a better paid, safer and easier job that might mean i'll get to spend a Christmas day with my child some day.

If I make an innapropriate comment, the mods and other E.S. members will clip my wings.

I'm happy to discuss cetain matters with anyone and I encourage healthy debate. I think it is important, especially, to involve the public in our discussions. A little levity doesn't hurt.

Now, you've made me go a whole post without a smart comment. Happy?

Trojan911

deadwood wrote: »

Now, you've made me go a whole post without a smart comment. Happy?

Why should that make me happy? Good to see you can actually be serious and great to see you doing so much grasping. Keep it up.

metman

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think the point is that by engaging in a high speed chase, the police are putting peoples lives in danger.

It is a difficult call, but that is why many police forces around the world have banned or restricted them.

http://www.kristieslaw.org/

Doc, I am familiar with the kristieslaw site and here, as you say, some forces have curtailed pursuits and even 999 response on blues and twos for the reasons raised on that site. These forces are, however, by far in the minority.

In my view, to remove pursuits as a tactical option in the policing armoury is to effectively surrender the roads to mobile criminals and would do nothing more than encourage even more to chance their arm at playing cat and mouse with roads policing units.

As the police, we have a sworn duty to confront and tackle criminals, and this includes on the roads. Provided checks and balances are in place, as outlined in my previous post, I do not see why pursuits cannot continue to be used successfully as a tactic in apprehending those who display abject contempt for other road users and law abiding people in general.

I think a ban on police pursuing criminals would give out the wrong signal and ultimately result in more harm than it would prevent.

flyton5

This trojan guy is getting on my wick.....seems to be posting just to get a rise out of particular people.....seems to me that he has a problem with the guards and is looking for any excuse to have a go....maybe he could clarify if he thorougly inspects his car every time he decides to drive it.....maybe he could get off the 'garda bashing' band wagon and do something constructive with his time......unfortunately the guards cant do anything these days without people deciding that it's been done wrong....these armchair warriors will always see better ways of doing a guards job or see ways of criticising them for doing their job....bit of a catch 22 if you ask me......

btw....Trojan.....whats your problem with AGS?? could clear up quite a few things.....

deadwood

Sorry for getting back on topic (who, me?).

Reading back there, a few posts enquired why the Helicopter wasn't deployed in this pursuit.
Was this in the vicinity of the airport?

Jemmy

ok not quite clear, sorry but what is the AGS?

djtechnics1210

Plus helicopter takes a long time for to get on scene if it is in Baldonnell