Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

riflehunter77

:mad::mad:

Rovi wrote: »

Some incredibly ill-informed 'debate' on the subject:

http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-marianfinucane-2008-12-14.smil

Needs RealPlayer, 'guns' segment begins at 36:50.


:mad:

I thought this was an april fools joke when I heard it NOT. Seriously doe lads they do not have a clue what they are talking about and thats the worrying thing about it that they are getting so much air time.They will be looking for a ban on kitchen knives next every household,chef,butcher watch out your next. Marian Finaucane you are joke with no cop on at all. They dont know there arse from there elbow :mad::mad::mad:

José Alaninho

Rovi wrote: »

Some incredibly ill-informed 'debate' on the subject:

http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-rte-marianfinucane-2008-12-14.smil

Needs RealPlayer, 'guns' segment begins at 36:50.


:mad:

I had never really lost faith until now. We're doomed...

Sparks

Wow. And I thought TDs were ill-informed...

Rew

Has to be against some broadcasting rule or soemthing!

Grizzly 45

marian@rte.ie If you would like to express your disapproval to her.:(

rrpc

I heard that yesterday as well, but I have a differnt slant. This is what happens when you have a Minister and numerous other politicians etc. continually mentioning licensed firearms owners in the same breath as criminals. The distinctions become blurred and every mistake whether intentional or no becomes fact and jumbled up in people's minds.

You heard effectively a cross section of people outside the whole ambit of either shooting or politics parrotting the things they have heard or read over the last month or so as fact. When that information was wrong in the first place, then how surprised should we really be to hear the unbelievable leaps of logic that were broadcast yesterday?

Hivemind187

Rew wrote: »

Has to be against some broadcasting rule or soemthing!

Talk to the station. They allowed the connection to be drawn - and agreed with - that "these guns are coming in with drug shipments".

Make enough noise you might get them to retract it on air or at least an aknowledgment that it was straying into an area of conversation that they were not informed well enough about to make such statements.

National broadcaster after all.

packas

Sparks wrote: »

From today's Irish Times Magazine:

All shooting is from a static position, there is no movement with loaded firearms. Nobody is allowed to walk around carrying guns on their hips, although people tend to believe what they see on TV in action movies," says Barry

A very positive article but with the comments above is Kieran suggesting that using a holster is bad? Surely keeping your unloaded gun in your holster while you replace/patch targets is good practice. That way you know exactly where it is. Why can't all discplines support each others sport? Why go out of your way to make statements like that. Come on lads we all need to work together here:mad: Just because Olympic style shootnig doesn't use holsters doesn't mean that all sport shooting disciplines don't use holsters.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they shot 1500 in Fermoy. Doesn't 1500 uses holsters & movement (standing to kneeling)?

Bananaman

Let us just be glad that a VERY good piece was published in the press.

PR was obviously at play here and what was deemed to be of the best effect was utilised in the space given.

I competed in, and made myself available for RO duties, in the International in Fermoy this last summer.

A Fantastic facility and a great event - something we can all be proud of. The Local Gardai, in uniform, were in attendance and by all accounts were extremely happy, not just with the safety standards but to see Ireland taking medal after medal and cup after cup.

Remember who reads this thread and stop providing them with soundbites which they will use out of context.

B'Man

macnas

Agreed B'man. Well done to all at Fermoy, it's great to see how a well run and safe club can have a positive PR effect.

Sparks

packas wrote: »

Just because Olympic style shootnig doesn't use holsters doesn't mean that all sport shooting disciplines don't use holsters.

Packas, just to clarify, Kieran Barry isn't NTSA, he's NASRPC (sporting rifle & pistol).

packas

Hi Sparks. Thanks for the clarification. The intent was not to have a dig at any organisation. To be honest I'm really not concerned which discipline he's a member of I simply wanted to make the point that all disciplines should stand united.

FutureGuy

My dad regularly frequents the Fermoy range and has been shooting for 50 years. It's a disgrace to think that he wont be able to enjoy one of the only hobby he truely enjoys.

A shame

rrpc

packas wrote: »

All shooting is from a static position, there is no movement with loaded firearms. Nobody is allowed to walk around carrying guns on their hips, although people tend to believe what they see on TV in action movies," says Barry

A very positive article but with the comments above is Kieran suggesting that using a holster is bad? Surely keeping your unloaded gun in your holster while you replace/patch targets is good practice. That way you know exactly where it is.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not 'having a go' at anyone's sport or the way they run it.

I've shot rifle in Fermoy, and the rule there is that you don't leave the firing point unless your rifle has the bolt removed and has been confirmed in that condition by the RO. They relax that rule for target rifle (single shot) if there is a breech flag in the breech (because in a lot of cases, the bolt isn't removable without changing the cheek piece position which can be a pain).

In view of that, Kieran is probably only stating the safety rule for his range. He's quite within his rghts to set more stringent safety rules as he and his committee sees fit. You can argue that a holstered pistol is just as safe, but unless the range officer follows each competitor individually to make sure that condition doesn't change between firing point and target line then it can't be considered as safe as leaving the pistol on the firing point under the control of the RO.

Why can't all discplines support each others sport? Why go out of your way to make statements like that. Come on lads we all need to work together here:mad: Just because Olympic style shootnig doesn't use holsters doesn't mean that all sport shooting disciplines don't use holsters.

And maybe if you realised that each range can and do have their own rules, and that those rules are agreed by the members, it's completely their own business what they demand of the people who want to shoot there.

And to echo what Sparks said, to the best of my knowledge there has been no ISSF (or Olympic if you must) pistol competitions in Fermoy yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought they shot 1500 in Fermoy. Doesn't 1500 uses holsters & movement (standing to kneeling)?

On that basis, silhouette, prone rifle, three positional rifle and in fact pretty much any discipline involves movement of some kind or other on the firing point. I think he's referring to movement beyond the firing line.

But all of this misses the point completely in that we have at least got some positive coverage of our sport. I have yet to see an article written on shooting either positive or negative that didn't have some form of inaccuracy or other.

packas

Yes it is a positive article. Don't want to take from that at all. It's fantastic they got the press & politicans involved. They should have gotten that girl to pose with Glock. God knows the Glocks & all centrefire pistols used for target shooting could do with some positive press at the minute :D

With regard to moving with a laoded firearm. I don't know of any discipline that allows you step outside the firing line while loaded. That would be totally unaccetpable.

BTW I know a member of Fermoy & he informed me that they use holsters. That's why I picked up on that & I thought it strange for him to state they don't. But as you said it's possible it was a mistake.

As you say RRPC we need more of this positive press.

Rew

They talked about what they do in their club and your also readling alot in to a quote in a news paper that may or may not be correct or in context. We have bigger fish to fry then each other.

rrpc

packas wrote: »

BTW I know a member of Fermoy & he informed me that they use holsters. That's why I picked up on that & I thought it strange for him to state they don't. But as you said it's possible it was a mistake.

It depends entirely on how they are used. The article and the quote weren't specific. For example they may be used on the firing point but nowhere else.

Bananaman

If you wish to know what Fermoy do then enter their next competition.
Do not speculate on it here when you do not know.

They have many throughout the year including a number of Internationals.

Same applies to any club/range.

If there is nothing which prevents you from doing so then enter the competitions, experience the discipline(s), learn from the experience, adopt the positive points in your own club and range.

I have never yet met a shooting discipline, that I am allowed to, that I did not compete in. Some, such as the prone rifle, is not for me (they won't allow me to make a hollow in the floor) but virtually everything else I love. What I can do I do in my own club but make it my business to compete and help wherever I can.

Too many back seat drivers on here.

Go support your sports and you will know what is involved in them.

Nuf Said.

B'Man

LB6

well put!

Kryten

Just to clarify a little. Yes holsters are used in PPC1500 Shooting. No firearm is placed in a holster until actually on the firing line. It will always be unloaded. On the load signal the magazine is placed on the gun. Condition 3 for the practical guys. On the start command the firearm is removed from the holster, round chambered and the particular practice started. On the position changes the gun is empty and the slide back. You reload and continue once in the new position. As for patching targets, you are still in the controlled area of the firing line.

Definitely, noone walks around with a gun in a holster, in Fermoy, so Kieran is correct.

Dvs

Perhaps the people that are going to great lengths,
Making sure to clarify here,
And through the media that their shooting discipline has no movement, or does not involve the use of holsters, ought to stop and think for a moment.

All the shooting sports disciplines involve firearms.

All the shooting sports disciplines have their own strict safety procedures, which obviously work for their own discipline, Illustrated by the lack of sport shooters or spectators turning up at A+E departments with gun shot wounds.


All the shooting sports disciplines involve different methods of carrying your firearm while on the range that obviously work for their own discipline, Illustrated by the lack of sport shooters or spectators turning up at A+E departments with gun shot wounds.


All the shooting sports disciplines involve movement with a loaded firearm,
Lets not debate the amount of movement, it only makes you appear less intelligent and more disingenuous.

No shooting discipline that I am aware of encases the shooter in a contraption that stops them from moving anything but their trigger finger before introducing the firearm into the equation.

A great deal of movement may not be required for your discipline, but the potential for any amount of movement exists.

It is only the shooter abiding by the aforementioned discipline specific safety procedures, that controls this and it obviously works for each discipline, Illustrated by the lack of sport shooters or spectators turning up at A+E departments with gun shot wounds.

Hunting with firearms involves movement with a loaded firearm,
Not even on a range with range officers, out in the great outdoors, with only the individual sport shooter in control of their actions and yet, the lack of hunters or members of the public turning up at A+E departments with gun shot wounds caused by hunters.


All this posturing about how your discipline is so much safer than another,
Or we don't do this or that like those other shooting sports,
Demeans both yourselves and our common sport.


Dvs

Jacobo

Dvs: what we are trying to argue is that we don't behave like cowboys or gangsters, as some people want to portray us.

Traumadoc

I have seen three accidental GSW in the last 2 years. one shot by a fellow hunter (pellet) one accidental discharge of his own gun, one lady hit by shot in the backside skin not broken.

Dvs

Traumadoc wrote: »

I have seen three accidental GSW in the last 2 years. one shot by a fellow hunter (pellet) one accidental discharge of his own gun, one lady hit by shot in the backside skin not broken.

Hello Dr,
Given that you have first hand knowledge,
for comparison perhaps you might tell us the amount of people you have seen in A+E with injuries that occurred while taking part in other sports over the same period?

Dvs.

Grizzly 45

And possibly,injuries sustained from weaponary other than firearms over a given time period.
IE anything that could happen to anyone out for a peaceful night out,Would be handy to know too.

Traumadoc

I would see a lot more fox hunting ( falls from horses) injuries , a lot more motorsport, a lot more motorbike , a lot more quad bike and a lot more trampoline ( including fatalities) I could go on........ from what I see shooting sports is one of the safer ones.
Sure there are more people killed angling every year.

sfakiaman

Traumadoc wrote: »

I would see a lot more fox hunting ( falls from horses) injuries , a lot more motorsport, a lot more motorbike , a lot more quad bike and a lot more trampoline ( including fatalities) I could go on........ from what I see shooting sports is one of the safer ones.
Sure there are more people killed angling every year.

I would imagine, with the exception of motorbike and angling, there are more people actively involved in sport shooting than any of the above.

TargetWidow

I read elsewhere on boards today that there are over 4,000 hanguns in Ireland (including the 1800 pesky licenced ones) when you count those held by members of the Gardai..... That figure cannot be right. That assumes that there are 2,200 handguns in the hands of Gardai for work purposes.

Now before I start here, I do realise that there are many fine upstanding members of the Gardai who are involved in target shooting and I have no bone to pick with them. I do however know personally of a few members of the force who have handguns and do not use them for target shooting. They simply have them because their job description allows or requires them to. (2,200 of them if another poster is to be believed!) Considering that according to the most recent figures on the Garda website there were only 12,265 members of the force as at Dec 2005, and that 9,815 were of the rank Garda that leaves 2450 members of sufficiently high rank to hold a handgun "in the line of duty". I'm not clear exactly on whether Sergeants are allowed handguns, but if they are not then you can deduct another 1,926 members of the force from that figure leaving you with a mere 524 Gardai of sufficiently high ranking in 2005 to be allowed to have a handgun for work purposes. That knocks the wind out of the 2,200 theory unless they have 3 or 4 each!

So four interesting questions I would like local reps (if they read this) to ask in Parliamentary questions (and which I am asking all my local reps to ask...)
1. Exactly how many members of the Gardai have handguns, for work purposes (detectives are allowed to carry them on their person if I'm not mistaken when on duty), or for reasons other than target shooting?

2. Who actually owns and paid for said handguns?

3.What precautions are required of them in terms of secure storage, membership of an authorised range or other authorised place to use it (Since the Phoenix Park Garda range has been closed for some time due to safety problems!!) and all the other hurdles that licenced handgun owners have to jump?

4.Of the recorded stolen handguns to date, how many were held by members of the Gardai. Are there any which cannot be accounted for? What procedures are in place to ensure that they are regularly counted?

Again to reiterate before I finish, I am only interested in putting a little more scrutiny on the entire picture regarding handguns in Ireland and am not seeking to reflect negatively on the Gardai, I just think that the entire picture should be shown while we're all looking at it and the finger is being pointed rather too much at sporting enthusiasts.

Sparks

TW, as I understand it, a lot more Gardai are qualified to use firearms than we'd normally assume - they don't carry them round on duty, but can sign them out from the station if it was called for. Something like two thirds of the Gardai are qualified to do this. And I understand that there's an enormous number of sig-sauer pistols procured for the Gardai for that purpose (but in storage owing to the closure of the garda training range). 4,000 might not be a bad estimate.

As to the 4,000 pistols in Ireland bit, in 2006 a senior Garda source told the Guardian that there were around 5,000 pistols held illegally by criminal gangs - I'd guess that figure's gone up a bit by now...

Tribunius

TargetWidow wrote: »

1. Exactly how many members of the Gardai have handguns, for work purposes (detectives are allowed to carry them on their person if I'm not mistaken when on duty), or for reasons other than target shooting?

Frankly thats not really any of the general publics business.

2. Who actually owns and paid for said handguns?

The department of justice.

3.What precautions are required of them in terms of secure storage, membership of an authorised range or other authorised place to use it (Since the Phoenix Park Garda range has been closed for some time due to safety problems!!) and all the other hurdles that licenced handgun owners have to jump?

They go through initial firearms training. Every year they are required to re qualify. They use DF ranges.

4.Of the recorded stolen handguns to date, how many were held by members of the Gardai. Are there any which cannot be accounted for? What procedures are in place to ensure that they are regularly counted?

Unknown. Unlikely to be many if any for that matter. I would imagine that it is up to the person who is issued it to keep an eye on it.

Oh the DF has a few thousand lying around aswell.