Irish Times reports that all pistols are to be banned

Sparks

Tribunius wrote: »

Frankly thats not really any of the general publics business.

Really? Because, you know, we did pay for them...
TW's not talking about personal property there, but state property.

The department of justice.

I don't think it's quite that simple. The firearms in question are Garda property, same as the uniforms, cars, etc. Yes, the funding comes from the state, but the Department doesn't actually own it.

Unknown. Unlikely to be many if any for that matter.

We keep hearing of at least five in one year; remember, we're talking about firearms stolen from Garda custody as well as actual Garda firearms. And given that there's a total of 27 listed as stolen since 2005, including air pistols, stun guns, paintball markers, etc, etc, the numbers are so small that every one counts.
Besides, isn't that just what the Minister said himself a few days ago?

I would imagine that it is up to the person who is issued it to keep an eye on it.

While it's issued to him/her, yes. What about the rest of the time?

Tribunius

Sparks wrote: »

Really? Because, you know, we did pay for them...
TW's not talking about personal property there, but state property.

Well true as that is, what does it matter? If its not public knowledge already there is probably a reason. Its the same with the DF if its not already out there then its operational information and the general public does not need to know.

Sparks wrote: »

I don't think it's quite that simple. The firearms in question are Garda property, same as the uniforms, cars, etc. Yes, the funding comes from the state, but the Department doesn't actually own it.

Well it works that way in the dept of defence (army, navy, air corp & civil defence) and I can't see them being all that different.

Sparks wrote: »

We keep hearing of at least five in one year; remember, we're talking about firearms stolen from Garda custody as well as actual Garda firearms. And given that there's a total of 27 listed as stolen since 2005, including air pistols, stun guns, paintball markers, etc, etc, the numbers are so small that every one counts.
Besides, isn't that just what the Minister said himself a few days ago?

I can see your point.

Sparks wrote: »

While it's issued to him/her, yes. What about the rest of the time?

It would be locked away in an armoury somewhere. Bare in mind these places are pretty well secured. Only a limited number of people even have access. The keys are signed in and out by one of those few people. Then any item let alone a firearm is signed out by a person. Details such as serial number, date, time, persons name, who authorised it, garda number etc are recorded.

macnas

Tribunius wrote: »

Well true as that is, what does it matter? If its not public knowledge already there is probably a reason. Its the same with the DF if its not already out there then its operational information and the general public does not need to know.

Sandbag logic.:rolleyes:

rrpc

macnas wrote: »

Sandbag logic.:rolleyes:

+1

I've yet to see a government department or other state body publish embarrassing information about themselves.

It usually takes the Comptroller and Auditor General to winkle these things out and publish them.

Or the odd* enterprising journalist with a FOI request.




*very odd

Grizzly 45

Sparks would be right on the figures of how many Gardai are firearms qualified,but how many have the actual authorisation ticket to carry at any given time would be proably a lot lower.

Sparks

They're certainly lower at the moment Grizzly, since the Gardai don't have a training range!

PJ Hunter

Sparks wrote: »

They're certainly lower at the moment Grizzly, since the Gardai don't have a training range!

I have heard Garda assigned to the President have to rely on civilian pistol ranges to practice.

TargetWidow

There was some European study that gave very high estimates for the number of illegally held handguns I stumbled across recently. I'll go dig it up again. Seriously lads.... two thirds of the Gardai are qualified to carry a handgun? I thought it was a predominantly unarmed force and that was why they had applied to have new powers to carry mace etc?:eek:

A few of the Gardai around my way shouldn't have batons never mind handguns. One Detective in particular is famous for sticking his (hangun:D) into interviewees mouths during questioning. And target shooters are the problem?!

Tribunus I always take issue with the old "none of the public's business" shtick. It usually disguises truths that would upset the applecart. And it brings out the terrier in me!:D

Sparks

TargetWidow wrote: »

There was some European study that gave very high estimates for the number of illegally held handguns I stumbled across recently.

150,000 illegally held firearms IIRC.
Can't remember the reference though

Seriously lads.... two thirds of the Gardai are qualified to carry a handgun? I thought it was a predominantly unarmed force and that was why they had applied to have new powers to carry mace etc?:eek:

No, it's an unarmed force during ordinary deployment; only in cases where an incident is underway that requires it can they sign out a pistol, if I remember the rules correctly. I think the mace thing was due to mace (and pepper spray and stun guns and so on) all being prohibited weapons under the law.

TargetWidow

Found it, I knew I had used it in an earlier quote.....
Number of illegal firearms in Ireland many of which (according to the good minister himself!) are handguns because those pesky deer rifles and sawn off shotguns are just no good for holding up Post Offices anymore since handguns became "fashionable" amongst crims!;)

TargetWidow wrote: »

The Small Arms Survey which was conducted in 2007 by researchers at the Graduate Institute of International Studies in Geneva and which was published in the latter half of last year, but not widely reported at the time....
" But the Garda Síochána’s most serious concern is not “traditional gun ownership, but an invasion of handguns and automatics smuggled in from Europe”, the survey points out.

Illegally held, unlicensed firearms are estimated to number at least 150,000, and this figure “could be considerably higher”, the survey says. Of greatest concern are the weapons in the hands of criminal gangs, many of which are semi-automatic pistols and submachine guns. “They have fuelled unprecedented, murderous rivalries among drug gangs,” the survey states.

Citing work from other researchers, it adds: “Small arms proliferation appears to be an unexpected consequence of integration into a border-free Europe, leaving national leaders and law enforcement officials struggling to cope.”

The survey acknowledges the three-fold response of the authorities here: the crackdown on smuggling; the 2006 amnesty for illegal firearms and an increase in the number of gardaí. (Source Irish Examiner 02/06/2008)". Check it out here...
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/06/02/story64050.asp

newby.204

if only the general media made this info freely available to the general public!!! oh and the occasional TD got up off his or her overweight arse and took the time to research their own policies properly haha
maybe this info should be given to minister ahern and senator de burca!!

TargetWidow

PJ Hunter wrote: »

I have heard Garda assigned the President have to rely on civilian pistol ranges to practice.

Well... they won't be practising here...

" Board shoots down plan for a Limerick underground gun range
Published Date: 13 December 2008 By Anne Sheridan
PLANS to build what would have been the country's first underground shooting range in Dromin Athlacca have been turned down by An Bord Pleanala.
Local resident Anthony O'Connor applied for planning permission this March to develop the firing range, estimated to cost in the region of €50,000, on an area of almost 700 square metres at Raymondstown.

The facility was being geared for use by local people licensed to hold firearms, and a number of gardai were also said to have supported the venture, having expressed interest in becoming members.

However, the development was refused planning permission by Limerick County Council in May after 13 local people lodged submissions out of concern over the impact the facility would have on their area, and some feared that it might attract criminal gangs.

"I am an elderly man living very close to the address of the proposed shooting range.

" I am afraid of that fact that guns are being stored close to my home. I would be afraid that criminals would be attracted to the shooting range," read one submission. In a Sunday newspaper in May Mr O'Connor denied claims that the shooting range would attract every criminal from Limerick, and said it would not be "some kind of John Rambo operation".

However, residents were also concerned about the effect the shooting range would have on livestock and bloodstock.

In his appeal to An Bord Pleanala, Mr O'Connor stated that, for medical reasons, he needs to work from home.

He said membership of the club would be limited to 18 people and it would only operate three days a week and not after 9pm.

He also argued that target shooting was an Olympic sport and "in fact, it's the oldest sport in the modern Olympics".

"The rules for operating the facility are strictly governed by the International Shooting Sport Federation.
In all the times we have been shooting using outdoor areas, there has never been a single injury on the ranges," he stated.

Four submissions were lodged with An Bord Pleanala regarding the controversial development, which one resident said had attracted an unwanted level of media attention.

An inspector with An Bord Pleanala who examined the site in September said they did not consider it incredible that the development was intended for local use and in association with Olympic training, but its overall conclusion was that the "applicant's case is not sufficiently convincing to warrant a grant of permission".

In rejecting the application, the board said it was not satisfied that there was a requirement for this development to be located in this rural area, and "is not satisfied that the development is intended entirely for private recreational usage".

The board stated in its report that the proposed development would be contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area, and furthermore would be prejudicial to public health, as they had concerns that the development may have interfered with the operation of the existing septic tank in the area.

In refusing planning permission, the council had said that such commercial developments should generally be located in or near settlements where all necessary infrastructure had been provided.

If planning were granted, the council had claimed, it would contravene the County Development Plan of 2005."
Limerick Leader

Grizzly 45

Be careful of the small arms institute in Geneva! They are remarkably anti gun in some of their statements.So it could be taken up either way,by whomever is trying to argue their point of view.

Re the Limerick range,
What exactly has that got to do with the Gardai practising on civvie ranges??

TargetWidow

Thanks Grizzly. I did wonder as to who exactly these people were and what their credentials are for performing this kind of study. Who would have paid to have that research done, I wonder, because he who pays the piper......;)

rrpc

TargetWidow wrote: »

Well... they won't be practising here...

" Board shoots down plan for a Limerick underground gun range
Published Date: 13 December 2008 By Anne Sheridan
PLANS to build what would have been the country's first underground shooting range in Dromin Athlacca have been turned down by An Bord Pleanala.
Local resident Anthony O'Connor applied for planning permission this March to develop the firing range, estimated to cost in the region of €50,000, on an area of almost 700 square metres at Raymondstown.

Got a phone call from Anthony the other day saying he's not giving up and he's looking across the border into Cork now for an old industrial building to convert.

He's determined to succeed and hopefully he will.

rrpc

TargetWidow wrote: »

There was some European study that gave very high estimates for the number of illegally held handguns I stumbled across recently. I'll go dig it up again. Seriously lads.... two thirds of the Gardai are qualified to carry a handgun? I thought it was a predominantly unarmed force and that was why they had applied to have new powers to carry mace etc?:eek:

The small arms survey 2007:

“Despite restrictions, Ireland is not unarmed: shotguns are relatively common. Garda spokespersons said that their 2006 amnesty was based on the assumption that the rate of public gun ownership in Ireland is roughly the same as in Britain (Connolly, 2006), but the number of licences suggests that legal ownership is considerably higher. In England and Wales there are 1.5 million licences for individual gun owners, one for every 28 residents (Ellis and Coleman, 2006). It has been reported that Ireland issued 209,000 firearm licences in 2004, one for every 19 residents (O’Keeffe and Hogan, 2004). Unregistered weapons are estimated to number at least 150,000, and this figure could be considerably higher, for a total of at least 360,000 firearms in civilian control.”

I wrote to them pointing out the errors in that paragraph in August last year. Never got a reply, this is what i said:

The figures quoting the number of licences are misleading because in Ireland each firearm is licensed, whereas in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland it is the owner that is licensed. In cases of multiple firearm ownership, the number of licences does not equate to the number of licensed firearms.

Secondly, in Ireland all air powered firearms above 1 joule in energy (anything above airsoft effectively) are also licensed, as are starting pistols (blank firing) and veterinary humane killers. These ‘firearms’ are not licensed in the United Kingdom.

TargetWidow

TargetWidow wrote: »

Four submissions were lodged with An Bord Pleanala regarding the controversial development, which one resident said had attracted an unwanted level of media attention.

In rejecting the application, the board said it was not satisfied that there was a requirement for this development to be located in this rural area, and "is not satisfied that the development is intended entirely for private recreational usage".

In refusing planning permission, the council had said that such commercial developments should generally be located in or near settlements where all necessary infrastructure had been provided.
Limerick Leader

Grizzly - just that the one of the main problems affecting all shooting sports at the moment (ie adverse and ill-informed media coverage) is one of the things that seems to have affected this application and secondly puzzlingly, An Bord Pleanala seem to think now that target ranges are better suited to more built-up less "rural" areas ????? I'd like to know what the Supers in the built up areas would make of this?

Tribunius

macnas wrote: »

Sandbag logic.:rolleyes:

Really. Well then lets see then. Going on the assumption that that anything the that is bought with state money should be public knowledge lets see what I'd like to know.

How many say pistols do the gardai/df have, where are they stored, whats the layout of the building they are stored in, what security arrangements are in place to protect them etc etc etc.

State money pays for all this so going on your logic the public should know eh?:rolleyes:

Sparks

And why not? If the security of these things is purely dependant on noone knowing details like that, we're stuffed already because this is Ireland. We've never been able to keep secrets longer than the first trip to the pub :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

TW,
Thats just a snapshot of comments from the press.Dont ever expect a full,detailed indepth discussion of a matter in a short article.There is a load more to that story than just those points made.The actual problem I belive there is more related to traffic and parking than a few nutters objecting on totally spurious and vexing grounds.

Rew

I wonder are these in the 1200 figure:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/soldier-to-be-disciplined-after-pistol-goes-missing-1582880.html

I think the atricle is incorrect though I belive weapons were stolen from stores and a soldier blamed for passing them to the IRA.

hk

Rew wrote: »

I wonder are these in the 1200 figure:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/soldier-to-be-disciplined-after-pistol-goes-missing-1582880.html

Doubt it, would not be reported stolen to gardi unless it happened within the state, rather a military court of enquiry will be held into the circumstances

murph226

haha I was on the Aisling when that Steyr went into the drink:D,
faulty sling:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

So thats four offical firearms missing and accounted for???.
One a year..Thats pretty exellent going BTW for our IDF.

Manic Moran

Have established two-way comms (as opposed to a pro-forma letter) with one of the TDs.

Am I correct in saying that the legislation (or instrument, whatever, I can't recall) which defined restricted firearms (including handguns, right?) and restricted the issuance of licenses for such to Phoenix Park instead of the varying whims of the local superintendants has been delayed, not passed, not implemented, or some such thing of that nature?

I seem to recall something of that sort of thing, but can't quite find it after a quick search.

NTM

rrpc

Manic Moran wrote: »

Have established two-way comms (as opposed to a pro-forma letter) with one of the TDs.

Am I correct in saying that the legislation (or instrument, whatever, I can't recall) which defined restricted firearms (including handguns, right?) and restricted the issuance of licenses for such to Phoenix Park instead of the varying whims of the local superintendants has been delayed, not passed, not implemented, or some such thing of that nature?

I seem to recall something of that sort of thing, but can't quite find it after a quick search.

NTM

It's a little more complicated than that Manic. The section giving effect to restricted firearms (2006 29) has been commenced; and the statutory instrument (SI 21/2008) defining what is a restricted firearm has been signed in.

However, section 30 which replaces section 3 of the 1925 act and which introduces the 'restricted firearm' to the licensing regime has not been commenced, because the same section also introduces the three year licence which can't be implemented for technical reasons yet (the computer system blew up ).

We're waiting for that technicality to be overcome before any of it really can become law. Before the next renewals is the best guesstimate at the moment.

CJhaughey

From the Sunday Business Post

Garda Inspectorate head backs ban on handgun ownership
Sunday, December 28, 2008 By John Burke
Kathy O’Toole, the head of the Garda Siochana Inspectorate, has lent her support to proposals by justice minister Dermot Ahern for a ban on private handgun ownership.

O’Toole, a former police commissioner in Boston, said she would ‘‘absolutely’’ support a total ban on handguns, based on her experience of murders in the US which were related to the theft and misuse of legitimately owned guns.

Earlier this month, Ahern said he would introduce legislation next year that would lead to a complete ban on the private ownership of handguns. The minister’s move came after the shooting dead of Shane Geoghegan in Limerick, in a case of mistaken identity.




The number of handguns in private ownership has risen from zero in 2004 to more than 1,800 at present, after a number of gun owners challenged the prohibitive application of firearms legislation by gardai involved in licensing guns.

O’Toole, who was appointed chief inspector of Garda Siochana Inspectorate by former justice minister Michael McDowell in 2006, said that her experience of private handgun ownership, while working as a police officer in the US, had been extremely negative.

‘‘I have always been anti-handgun,” she said. ‘‘I’ve had to respond to those horrific calls of teenagers shot and killed or injured in inner-city neighbourhoods. I think any major city police chief in the US would be [anti-handgun].”

O’Toole said the debate on handgun ownership did not arise in the US, where the right to bear arms is protected by the constitution, subject to qualifications of public safety. However, she cautioned about relying on the argument that most gun owners are law-abiding.

‘‘A lot of guns that are used in the commission of crime in the States - and I suspect that trend will develop here, if there aren’t controls - are guns that are stolen from their rightful owners,” O’Toole said in an interview in the end-of-year edit ion of the Law Society Gazette.

Ahern is liaising with the gardai, senior officials in his department and other interested parties about the handgun issue, and has indicated he may make allowances for those involved in sporting pistol shooting.

The National Association of Regional Game Councils (NARGC), the main firearms lobby group in Ireland, has consistently argued that legally held handguns do not pose a risk to public safety.

The NARGC has lent financial and legal support to gun owners who have successfully challenged the state on gun licensing.

Grizzly 45

Abit of internet research on CI[?] former police comissioner Kathleen O Toole's career in Boston doesn't make for inspiring reading on either solving crime,running the Boston PD, or that gun control works very well in Boston.Or that Boston PD is a much liked organisation in Boston.

Plus issuing police officers with "less lethal" pepper ball firearms and not training them in their use is not too good an idea either.
Especially when one kills a 19 year old college kid in a baseball riot:(.

Going too OT this is;But for those intrested Google Kathleen O Toole and Boston gun control to read on this.
Boston Phoenix is a good source on this.

We are NOT in America for a start,so trying to compare like and like is again impossible.

What kind of logic is this?
A lot of guns that are used in the commission of crime in the States - and I suspect that trend will develop here, if there aren’t controls - are guns that are stolen from their rightful owners,” O’Toole said in an interview in the end-of-year edit ion of the Law Society Gazette.

How do you become less law abiding if your personel property is stolen???Either in the US or here in Ireland????not being a lawyer,but ,I was under the understanding that theft was a crime,where the person stolen from was the aggreived party ???

Nor does it look like CI O Toole is up on our firearms acts either... We have more "controls" here onn
firearms aqusition,possesion and purchase,that would classify as totalitarian in the US ,and have got most American gun owners out marching fully armed on Washington DC


BUT maybe she can inform usall here how really evilll the Glock is;after all Boston PD use it as a duty side arm.:rolleyes:

Meyer

Frankly this is none of her damn business and it exceeds her job description if she is making those comments using her official title as "Chief Inspector of the Garda Inspectorate".

macnas

Got a phone call this morning from a local TD, he was replying to my email about 'fire alarms', had to laugh.