Deputies Deasy and Mitchell's comments in the media

bunny shooter

Not only are we potential criminals. Now we're nasty potential criminals

I think the noose is tightening

Mr Deasy seems to have a hotline to "The Examiner"

I wonder if his knuckles being rapped by his party leader has upset him

The Gun nuts are being secretly organised from here too. Boards.ie shooting forum is a clandestine meeting place for a few hardcore gun nuts:)

It wasn't me!

Will the text of these abusive e-mails be made public? If the samples here are representative of the majority, Mr Deay needs a thicker skin. He's also inconsistent and mouthy, poor features in a politician. I don't expect he'll do anything solid, doubt anyone takes him particularly seriously.

rrpc

On the other hand, if people are sending abusive emails to Mr. Deasy or Ms. Mitchell, then they should realise that they are doing more harm than good.

Reasoned argument is the only way to overcome ignorance and misconception.

Sparks

If Deputy Deasy's getting abusive emails, he knows where the Gardai are, and shouldn't mind producing said emails.
Frankly, I think he read this thread and figured he'd get a dig in with the Examiner.
Letter sent to the Examiner's editor on this.

Our man in Havana

Sure it is only a local call from Deasy HQ to the The Old Crone of Academy Street.

Deasy does not know the meaning of abusive. Nothing that has been sent by me or anyone here would be even remotely abusive even to the most thin skinned.

Boards.ie shooting forum is a clandestine meeting place for a few hardcore gun nuts:)

We are now on the map.

Rew

If TD's were to write in to the papers with every nasty email/letter they go they would get nothing done... oh wait maybe thats what their doing...

Cann't imagine Deasy is going to be popular in Waterford after this, plenty of shooters down there.

Sika_Stalker

i must say they could have placed the artical abit better
rather then having it in between the articals '' why did the bold boys shoot mammy'' and '' children forcibly put into care to curb gang crime''
the media machine is working overtime:(

Sparks

After some discussion with them, sent this to the Sunday Business Post:

Dear Editor,
I read John Burke's article in November 16's edition of the Post with
some alarm. It stated that Gardai are powerless to impose restrictions
on the licencing of handguns. I was alarmed because this is not true.

The Superintendent applied to for a firearms licence is the persona
designata in Irish law. This fact, established by Dunne v Donoghue
(2003) in the Supreme Court, means that no person in Ireland - not the
President, not the Taoiseach, not the Minister for Justice, not the
Garda Commissioner, not the Seanad, not the Dail, and not any of the
courts - is allowed to direct a Superintendent to grant or to refuse a
licence. The decision is his and his alone to make - and he is bound,
by law, to refuse any such application if he feels it would represent a
threat to public safety or to the peace.

There have been court cases taken against Superintendents for refusing
licences in the past. Each and every single one of these cases was a
Judicial Review - where the court merely checks that the decision was
legal under the Firearms Act. In many cases, it was not - and in those
cases the Courts sole power is to direct the Superintendent to revisit
his decision. The Court cannot direct him to grant the licence. The
Superintendent is perfectly free to refuse the licence subsequently, on
different grounds. He cannot, for example, refuse a licence because it
was applied for on a Tuesday. He can, however, refuse it on the grounds
of public safety or on the grounds that the applicant has no secure storage
for the firearm, or any one of a number of different criteria which have been
in the Firearms Act since the founding of the state. That distinction is the
sole point of the judicial review cases which have been brought.

The Commissioner's comments that he is also powerless to issue
guidelines on licencing is also factually incorrect. He does have
this power, and has always had it. Indeed, the most recent guidelines
were issued to the Superintendents only this May, by the National
Crime Prevention Unit (which the Commissioner outranks) on the topic
of secure storage. What the Commissioner cannot do (and again, this is
established by the Dunne case) is to issue orders to a Superintendent
to grant or refuse a licence. Guidelines, however, he may issue at his
discretion. And that will be explicitly covered when the relevant section
of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 is commenced, which we expect to
happen shortly - but it is not required in order to grant him this authority.

Further, it should be pointed out that the Gardai, the Department
of Justice, the Irish Farmers Association, the National Association
of Regional Games Councils, the Irish Sports Council, the various
governing bodies of the shooting sports including the National Target
Shooting Association, Firearms dealers and other stakeholders in the
area of firearms law, all sit on the Firearms Consultation Panel
in order that concerns such as those reported can be dealt with in
an efficient, safe manner, with the benefit of enormous amounts of
technical knowlege brought to the table by the stakeholders involved.
It is difficult to see why, when such a powerful forum for resolving
these concerns is available, it is not being availed of by the Gardai
if they have such concerns.

Finally, there are a number of counterpoints to the recent media
scaremongering on legally held firearms which must be made:

(*) The number of pistols licenced in Ireland per capita has fallen by 20% since 1971.
(*) Since 1971, our firearms laws have been tightened three times, making ours the most restrictive laws in the EU.
(*) Every single licenced firearm in Ireland is licenced to someone who was personally approved as safe to own and use that firearm by a Garda Superintendent.
(*) Garda Superintendents have exceptionally wide-ranging powers when it comes to granting or refusing licences. They can - and do - require gun safes, home inspections, house alarms, access to medical records, proficiency courses and membership of authorised firearms ranges.
(*) Firearms ranges are also inspected and authorised by the Gardai, to exceptionally high construction and safety standards. Many firearms ranges have spent tens of thousands of euros to come up to the Gardai requirements over the past two years.
(*) While there is a distinct difference in how many pistol licences are granted by different Garda Districts, this is caused by the requirement to be a member of an approved range - more licences are granted in areas closer to approved ranges.

Yours in Sport,

And this to the Examiner:

Dear Sir,
I read in today's Examiner that Deputy Deasy feels he has been the subject of hate mail from "hardcore gun enthusiasts". Firstly, I wish to point out that Deputy Deasy's comments in recent days have all but accused legitimate firearms owners of being responsible for the rise in gun crime in this country. He - and Deputy Mitchell - have both been called in by Deputy Kenny on this matter and instructed to attend a pistol range to learn what they're talking about. Here is the email we received from him on this:

Thanks. Charlie Flanagan is the Fine Gael spokesman on Justice. I fully understand your position. No statement has issued from the Fine Gael Front Bench about this.

I spoke to Dep Flanagan and asked that he and Dep Deasy attend at a pistol range and actually see just how regulated this sector is.

Hoping he can do so shortly.

Enda Kenny.

He is also meeting with the shooting bodies this week to further discuss the grossly offensive statements made by Deputies Deasy and Mitchell.

I'm personally rather annoyed that you printed the Deputy's comments without any right of reply from firearms owners. Last week, in response to Deputy Deasy's original comments which began all this nonsense, I sent you the following email, which remains unpublished and unacknowleged:

Dear Editor,
In recent weeks, Deputies Deasy and Mitchell and others have engaged in scaremongering on a widespread scale in the media (including this newspaper), saying that there has been a massive rise in the licencing of pistols, and attempting to link this alleged rise to the recent rise in levels of gun crime. As a licenced firearms owner, I wish to offer the following counterpoints:

(*) The number of pistols licenced in Ireland per capita has fallen by 20% since 1971.

(*) Since 1971, our firearms laws have been tightened three times, making ours the most restrictive laws in the EU.

(*) Every single licenced firearm in Ireland is licenced to someone who was personally approved as safe to own and use that firearm by a Garda Superintendent.

(*) Garda Superintendents have exceptionally wide-ranging powers when it comes to granting or refusing licences. They can - and do - require gun safes, home inspections, house alarms, access to medical records, proficiency courses and membership of authorised firearms ranges.

(*) Firearms ranges are also inspected and authorised by the Gardai, to exceptionally high construction and safety standards. Many firearms ranges have spent tens of thousands of euros to come up to the Gardai requirements over the past two years.

(*) While there is a distinct difference in how many pistol licences are granted by different Garda Districts, this is caused by the requirement to be a member of an approved range - more licences are granted in areas closer to approved ranges.

(*) In 2007 the Gardai, the Department of Justice, the Irish Sports Council, the governing bodies of target shooting sports, firearms dealers and other stakeholders, all came together to found the Firearms Consultation Panel under the aegis of the Minister for Justice. This groundbreaking body allows all parties to find safe, efficient, well-informed solutions to the concerns of those who use firearms and those who draft and those who enforce firearms law.

In short, the concerns that Deputies Deasy and Mitchell and others have attempted to raise are not based on facts or statistics or current procedures, and serve no useful function other than to scaremonger in the lead-up to the local elections. This is a shameful act on their part.

Yours in Sport,

As you can see, it addresses Deputy Deasy's comments. This email is typical of the emails the Deputy has received - if he feels that emails which point out that the facts don't support his concerns constitute "hate mail", I suggest he grow a thicker skin. If you wish to see more of the emails which were sent to him, they are available online here:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055416847

This is not the first time the Examiner has published erroneous material which portrays our sport in an unjustified and highly negative light. I was myself the subject of one such case two years ago, when you published a letter attributed to me which I had not written. I was assured at that time by yourself that the Examiner would always seek both sides of such stories, and we have always been available to discuss such matters with you; why are you now printing such erroneous nonsense without so much as reading the emails we send, let alone contacting us?

G17

My emails were to a senior FG person asking about the official party line in light of the comments.
He didn't see any problem with the mails or the points I'd raised; he acknowledged receipt and forwarded them for comment to the 2 deputies (I'm still waiting).

So that rules me out as a hate mailer too.

bunny shooter

I am still awaiting replies to mine

Vegeta

bunny shooter wrote: »

I am still awaiting replies to mine

Me too, no replies yet

Rew

Fair play Sparks, both are very good letters.

Our man in Havana

Charlie Flanagan replied to me with a "I am looking into it."

tonysopprano

Olivia Mitchel --Reply and counter-reply sent back
Paschal Donoghue --Investigating, will get back to me
Billy Timmins -- Thank you for your email!!!!
Charles Flanagan x2 --Thinks media misrepresented it. Not convinced of link
between legal and illegal firearms. Wants to meet
shooters and work it out.

Out of 57 emails sent to personal address and 1 to Fine Gael and 1 to Fine Gael Press Office

Grizzly 45

Well, I think that is very slanderous of Mr Deasy/ Mrs Mitchell.And unless he/she produces to the Gardai or Boards.ie or makes public these "hate emails" I will consider that he is slandering a group of people,and I challange him to produce them here in a public forum or the papers,without pertinent details as to who sent them.That he can send to the Gardai.Otherwise maybe we should consider a group challange to him/her in the courts for slander.:mad:

Sparks

It's libel not slander. And it's nearly impossible to prove libel against a group. I'd just ignore Deasy and stop sending him emails (well, except to politely pre-decline him for your vote, obviously) and instead email the newspapers and media instead. You're not going to change Deasy's mind, since it's quite likely he's only saying things to get attention ahead of the elections next year anyway. "Deasy, MEP" may well be all that's running through his head when he says these things.

Grizzly 45

Yup,right there Sparks re slander/libel!:).
But otoh Re group libel,supposing he said that travellers are all likely to comit crimes,because a few asked him for a coupla bob like.Wouldnt that be considerd a libellous statement or group libel???Surely,sauce for the goose and all that?

BornToKill

All these emails and letters to the editor are a mistake. Although each may be technically correct on minor points, we are only playing into the hands of those who want to highlight the issue for their own purposes and the longer this 'debate' continues the more pressure for something to be done.

dresden8

BornToKill wrote: »

All these emails and letters to the editor are a mistake. Although each may be technically correct on minor points, we are only playing into the hands of those who want to highlight the issue for their own purposes and the longer this 'debate' continues the more pressure for something to be done.

I'd offer a different theory.

These lads saw a soft target to show they were "tough on crime". We need to show these lads the soft option ain't so soft. Kick us and we'll bite their b@lls. Electorally speaking.

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

All these emails and letters to the editor are a mistake. Although each may be technically correct on minor points, we are only playing into the hands of those who want to highlight the issue for their own purposes and the longer this 'debate' continues the more pressure for something to be done.

I'd agree if all that those responsible (ie, Deasy and Mitchell) wanted was press space, but in their field as well as ours, there really is such a thing as bad press, and when a lot of people write into the newspapers pointing out that they're talking through their hat and discredit them, that's good from the point of view of our sport. It's also a good opportunity to educate the undecided majority about what our sports are, what they do, and how safe they are. And we'd be fools to turn down such an opportunity.

I've already heard of some figures in our sport saying that this sort of grassroots thing is bad because folk aren't singing the same hymn - well horse hockey to that. What our sport needs more than any other thing - more than money, more than organisation and blazer and big dinners, more than harmony between groups, more than ammunition and targets - is for those people who actually take part in the sport to get up off their arses and actually do something to contribute to the community they get so much from. I'd prefer it was to organise matches and help run the sport, but if all it is is writing to the editor when a paper publishes an attack on our sport, I'll take that and be glad of it. Besides - and I'm speaking from experience on this one - without the grassroots, the NGBs and other bodies can't claim to represent anyone at all, and the louder the grassroots, the easier the NGB's job.

The sport may not be about noise, but the way the cards have been dealt to us, the sport won't survive without the noise, at least for the moment.

dimebag249

Okeeey. Sorry if a reply similar to this's been posted, I haven't gone over all the posts from the last few days. I got this from John O'Mahony T.D., Fine Gael spokesperson for sport.

[dimebag249]

My apologies for the delay in responding to your e-mail regarding the
private possession and use of firearms

The numbers of hand guns being licensed is a matter of some concern but
there is no hard evidence to suggest a link between crime and the use of
guns. I believe the law should be reviewed to ensure consistency among
superintendents and the courts as regards the criteria for the issue of
licences. I have been in contact with some of the national sportin g gun
clubs and they have shown careful regard for the manner in which their
equipment is used. If there was any evidence to show that lawfully held
guns are being abused, stolen or in any way connected to organised crime I
would be most concerned. The problem currently lies with illegally held
firearms and guns illegally imported from Russia and Eastern Europe often
times with consignments of drugs and guns which were formerly used by
terrorists in Northern Ireland.

Kind regards,


John.

Rock on John. I generally vote FF, but if people were to contact John and tell him that they appreciate has rational, calm approach to the issue, it might do more good than writing to an idiot politician pointing out how wrong they are...

Vegeta

dimebag249 wrote: »

Okeeey. Sorry if a reply similar to this's been posted, I haven't gone over all the posts from the last few days. I got this from John O'Mahony T.D., Fine Gael spokesperson for sport.




Rock on John. I generally vote FF, but if people were to contact John and tell him that they appreciate has rational, calm approach to the issue, it might do more good than writing to an idiot politician pointing out how wrong they are...

Thanks Dimebag, can he be mailed at the usual john.omahony@oireachtas.ie type address

Veg

dimebag249

Well Vegeta, yeah, the reply I got from him was from john.omahony@oireachtas.ie though in this case I think I'd originally just e-mailed some info@fg.ie or somesuch.

It actually felt better to write to a politician to thank them for doing something right than to tell some thick that Glocks can't shoot down 747s or whatever. Probably makes the politician feel better too, more open to the issue in question maybe...


Anyway Pat Rabbitte wasn't as helpful:

[dimebag249]

The Labour Party has no objection to firearms being used for sporting purposes and such like so long as they comply with a rigorous licensing system.

Regards

Pat Rabbitte

I guess a body could read that anyway they wanted to.

PJ Hunter

any pistol shooter able to win a medal for Ireland2012

Oleksandr Petriv of Ukraine competes during Men's 25m Rapid Fire Pistol Final of the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games Shooting event in Beijing, China, Aug. 16, 2008. He won the gold medal in the event. (Xinhua/Li Ga)

Sparks

You ask that like it was an easy thing...
In short, for 25m, no. We'd need someone who was putting in 560s now and a budget to send them off to season them for 2012. For 10m, we're closer, but not quite there. We could field maybe three shooters, four at a stretch, who'd place well, but medalling would be unlikely this time around (most medallists in shooting are not at their first games, but their second or third).

But then, that's the Games for you - getting there is hard enough, but then you walk into the shooting hall and there are over six thousand people watching you and the other 99 shooters; then you walk into the finals hall and grand there are only 2,500 people watching, but now it's only you and 7 others, and there are cameras watching your face for the crowd and your target is up on the other big screen over your head.
Pressure isn't a big enough word really

Kryten

As a result of occasional training, no coaching, and for some of us, not quite ideal range facilities to practice on, some of us are getting low 500's and one guy a 539 in practice in 25m pistol. With more intensive training and coaching combined with diet and exercise, 560 is certainly possible, prior to 2012. No guarantee of getting to the olympics though. The selection process is very tough, as places are limited.

Sparks

Kryten, you don't quite understand me - we'd need to have people who were comfortably hitting 560 today (it's a six-year training programme to get to the games for the first time). Especially as the discipline they'd be competing in is somewhat different to the standard pistol we're shooting so much of at the moment. Standard pistol's easier for ranges to set up on, but it's not in the Games, it's in the World Championships. The Games has Rapid-Fire Pistol (men only, five seperate targets), Ladies Sport Pistol (standard pistol but for women), 50m Pistol (men only) and 10m Air Pistol (men & women).
Selection is indeed exceptionally tough - to get into the games you have to earn a quota place - effectively by winning a world cup. We couldn't just nominate people to go. We've gotten "wildcard" places in the past - places where a quota place wasn't going to be used by the country that won it can be returned to the IOC, who will issue them to nations they feel have a worthy case for such an exception. It's possible we might get one for 2012 given the proximity of the event, but it's not something you can predict ahead of time.

rrpc

Apart from the fact that nothing we're doing at the moment is actually an Olympic event.

There are only three .22 pistol events at the Olympics: 50m Free Pistol, 25m Women's Pistol (precision/rapid) and Men's rapid fire pistol.

We have done the precision/rapid in Rathdrum, but there's a slight gender issue we have to get over first.

Rovi

rrpc wrote: »

There are only three .22 pistol events at the Olympics: 50m Free Pistol, 25m Women's Pistol (precision/rapid) and Men's rapid fire pistol.

We have done the precision/rapid in Rathdrum, but there's a slight gender issue we have to get over first.

Here you go-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery

You have four years, everything should be healed up nicely by then.

chem

I put myself forward for the 25M. Here is me training for the Men's rapid fire pistol.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHUc_eHmAPg

I think I even hit the paper once:pac: