M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Cool Mo D

BluntGuy wrote: »

I really want to know how they came to the conclusion that a horrible 3-level roundabout stack with a proven record of failure would be better than the free-flow options? Especially when they have plenty of space to develop a proper junction. Like the WRC switch-over at Athenry, the junction is needlessly messy, convoluted and presents no long-term benefits.

Isn't this going to be Ireland's first stacked roundabout?

BluntGuy

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Isn't this going to be Ireland's first stacked roundabout?

It is, but our British cousins have been experiencing those diabolical creations for years and they almost never work even close to efficiently. And contrary to what the NRA might believe, they are a MESS to try and upgrade.

They say that traffic signals can be added to the junction in the future. What does that give you? A three-level Dunkettle. FUN thought I'm sure you'll all agree.

KevR

KevR wrote: »

The nearest permanent traffic counter to Galway City is on the M6 at Junction 19, on the mainline between the off-ramp and on-ramp. Therefore, no traffic leaving or entering at J19 is counted; unless there are counters on the slips which I have missed (doubtful!).

Embarassing but I did in fact miss the traffic counters on the ramps. Went over one on the Westbound on-ramp at J19 earlier today. I assume there are counters on all-ramps at all junctions in addition to the counters on the mainline between the off and on-ramps at each junction.

Will be interesting to see figures for traffic going to/from J19 and Doughiska.

Chris_5339762

KevR wrote: »

I think the M6/Bypass junction will be free-flow like the M4/M6 interchange at Kinnegead, although I am open to correction. There are good diagrams of it floating around somewhere...

Yup, this is whats planned -

Sponge Bob

I know that was what was planned Chris but now they gotta dig up a mile of it because THIS is what was built

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yup, this is whats planned -

Chris_5339762

Yup. But around that area there is a LOT of extra land taken so it shouldnt be too disruptive (if it ever happens )

At least the M6 Ballinasloe - Galway scheme has been properly futureproofed - wide median, extra land take for the bypass and crazy wide hard shoulders for the slip roads for the M17/18/6 junction.

Edit: and thats actually the revised plan, the original called for a dumbell junction of sorts, which was daft.

Sponge Bob

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yup. But around that area there is a LOT of extra land taken so it shouldnt be too disruptive (if it ever happens )

So why did they not run the eastbound lane of the current N/M6 along its proposed alignment after the GCOB is built and why is there no merge from GCOB east toward Doughiska either

They will have to dig the entire eastbound lane from Doughiska up for around half a mile ( at a location sw and s of the airport) and much of it for another half a mile at the merges.

Planks

dubhthach

Sponge Bob wrote: »

So why did they not run the eastbound lane of the current N/M6 along its proposed alignment after the GCOB is built and why is there no merge from GCOB east toward Doughiska either

Same reason they ended the road in a round-about at Doughiska or have designed the junction of the M6/M17/M18 as they have because it involves them having to do the least amount of thinking when it came to designing the road. It's fairly endemic in this country after all they removed the grade separated junctions from the M50 original design because it would save £25million. Sure why design/build a road thinking in the long term when you can appear to save money in the short term.

Sponge Bob

Shame their website is so inconsistent. That junction is a GSJ but you could go around the city from Doughiska without having to do a U turn at J19

http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/RoadsTransportation/RoadProjects/n6_outer/intermap.htm

Chris_5339762

Yeah whats on their website is definately the old version (stupid roundabout pile). Latest pcitures (taken from an M17/18 tender document that lumped in some ground investigations along the bypass route) is what will be built.

And you can still go around the city from the Doughiska end in the new design, the movement that is missing is Knocknacarra - Doughiska. But in any case, Glennascaul J19 is perfectly good for that. The new plan is much better.

Sponge Bob

The lack of a Bypass Eastbound towards Doughiska facility is rather stupid to my mind

Furthermore the EIS was carried out on the GSJ variant , the klutzes are leaving themselves open to a Sweetman challenge by removing that movement.

Chris_5339762

Looks to me like landtake is the same though, but I'm sure Sweetman will find a way to whinge and complain about it.

I reckon we should start up a group for Galway People Who Want The Bypass, then meet on a Saturday with shovels and start building it.

BluntGuy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The lack of a Bypass Eastbound towards Doughiska facility is rather stupid to my mind

I think we must have some kind of psychological fear of building proper trumpet interchanges between motorways/DCs because we just can't do it. This is CLOSEST I've seen to one, and that's only because it lazily includes the N6 outbound to bypass westbound movement.

antoobrien

BluntGuy wrote: »

I think we must have some kind of psychological fear of building proper trumpet interchanges between motorways/DCs because we just can't do it.

Might have something to do with the designer having read this page. In summary:

• Disorienting to navigate for those driving in the direction that uses the loop.
  
• Expensive to build in places with high land values, and leaves a redundant patch of land within the loop.
  
• Scaling down the interchange often results in a more dangerous interchange - the M6 at Stoke frequently suffers congestion from articulated lorries that have tipped over.

Lorries tipping over is a pretty good reason not to build this type of interchange, especially given the driving habits in this country (no that is not a comment on the driving skills of lorry/truck drivers, but all road users)

spacetweek

Sorry guys, you lost me there.

Have they revised the design from dumbells to freeflower, or vice versa?

Sponge Bob

maps/schematics back a page.

Chris_5339762

The current is the freeflower, old version is the roundabout pile.

Carawaystick

BluntGuy wrote: »

I think we must have some kind of psychological fear of building proper trumpet interchanges between motorways/DCs because we just can't do it. This is CLOSEST I've seen to one, and that's only because it lazily includes the N6 outbound to bypass westbound movement.

The N25/N28 is a DC-DC freeflowing interchange
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.880001,-8.420012&spn=0.003682,0.008819&t=h&z=17

Chris_5339762

Funny isnt it, especially when that descends into S2 about a mile down the road along the N28 I was always amazed that got a trumpet.

M2 has one http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=53.488467,-6.383593&spn=0.008975,0.027874&z=16

Sponge Bob

No excuse not to have one in Galway, this is the main exit for the City whether eastbound off the bypass or westbound from Athenry or Dublin.

L1011

The M2 has one for a pissant spur that runs to a five-arm roundabout with a bunch of fairly poor S2s, at that!

Sponge Bob

MYOB wrote: »

The M2 has one for a pissant spur that runs to a five-arm roundabout with a bunch of fairly poor S2s, at that!

It does , Yahoo Maps are always best for roads

http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=53.488369&lon=-6.38604&zoom=16

KevR

Just a traffic count from a few years back in case anyone has not seen it. It's from the Wolfe Tone Bridge in the South City Centre; from the year 2004 and backwards. My guess would be that the Wolfe Tone Bridge is the 2nd busiest bridge in Galway, after the Qunicentennial of course. The Salmon Weir is probably 3rd busiest and O'Briens Bridge is the least busy of the four bridges.

https://nraextra.nra.ie/trafficcounterdata/html/R336-01.htm

AADT of between 19,000 and 22,500. No doubt traffic levels have increased since 2004. My guess is that the Quincentennial carries at least twice as much traffic as the Wolfe Tone. Salmon Weir, at the very least 10,000-12,000 and O'Briens 7,000-9,000.
So possibly more than 85,000 crossing the river everyday. 3 of the bridges are in the City Centre, are quite narrow and have a poor surrounding road network. The Qunicentennial is a bit better although the Galway SC & Menlo Park roundabouts to the East and Seamus Quirke/Bishop O'Donnell to the West cause big problems.

murpho999

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It does , Yahoo Maps are always best for roads

http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=53.488369&lon=-6.38604&zoom=16

Don't find it the best, none of the new motorways are on it!

antoobrien

KevR wrote: »

O'Briens Bridge is the least busy of the four bridges.

In fairness O'Briens Bridge is nowhere near as busy as it was since Shop St. was pedestrianised (10 or so years ago I think).

antoobrien

There's a lively discussion happening on another thread starting here triggered by an online petition to get the support of the people of Galway for the bypass.

Sponge Bob

As I write this Dempsey is golfing in Georgia at our expense

It appears that my suspicions expressed in this post in january were correct ....but it is much worse than that

Basically the government can ask the EU to 'clarify' aspects of law and I was correct in that they go to the Supreme Court and that the Supreme Court sends an Article 267 Referral off to Brussels for clarification. The appeal is to be lodged before the summer and heard in the autumn.

IE the government appear to appeal against themselves, specifically about the Galway City Bypass

The problem is that Dempsey is letting Gormley write the menu. The greens have reamed the case with an enormous series of questions and interpretations of various habitat and strategic environment directives.

The Supreme Court is then expected to send this lot to Brussels in late 2010 and Brussels will sit on them for a year ( or two) while it considers the questions. The Supreme Court will hopefully only send one or two specific questions but Dempsey and Gormley would seemingly like them to send lots so that they can blame Brussels for every imaginable holdup between now and possibly as long as end 2012.

But my understanding is that Dempsey has completely keeled over to Gormley and that the questions put to the Supreme Court for referral will be far more wide ranging than a few grey areas that came up in the planning of the Galway Bypass.

Hopefully the Supreme Court tells Gormley and Dempsey to bugger off on most of these questions

?Cee?view

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The problem is that Dempsey is letting Gormley write the menu. The greens have reamed the case with an enormous series of questions and interpretations of various habitat and strategic environment directives.

BA**ARDS

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Hopefully the Supreme Court tells Gormley and Dempsey to bugger off on most of these questions

I share your hope, but I wouldn't put money on it.

Sponge Bob

If anybody knows Grealish tell Grealish to ask this parliamentary question of Gormley.

"Why is the department of the environment bringing a court case against itself to the supreme court on the Galway Bypass and when will this case be heard?"

You could always ask O Brolcháin to ask the exact same question of Gormley in the Seanad

?Cee?view

SpongeBob,

If it's something you can share, what's your source for this latest info on Gormless and Dempseys' machinations?

Thanks,

C'view

Sponge Bob

Frank Fahey sent a long recent letter from Dempsey to Fahey around the FF Cumainn and it leaked.

?Cee?view

Fair dues to Frankeen. I was never previously a fan, but he seems to be doing his level best with this one. It's a pity that some of the other local TDs and councillors don't step up to the plate on this one as well.

Chris_5339762

Frank is doing it all purely for his own votes and to impress people into voting but he is the only one actually doing anything remotely positive.

?Cee?view

Agreed. He is of course doing it for himself.

But I find his approach less nauseating than the ecomentalists approach who seem to want us to believe that they're doing it all for us :rolleyes:

O'Brolchain (Green Senator) who is vehemently against progress in Galway (as the bog cotton would be damaged by the Bypass - can they not transplant a bit?) now proposes damming the Corrib to create "Green" Energy" (whatever the hell that means). Maybe the bypass could be routed over his dam:D

Sponge Bob

churchview wrote: »

Fair dues to Frankeen. I was never previously a fan, but he seems to be doing his level best with this one. It's a pity that some of the other local TDs and councillors don't step up to the plate on this one as well.

Frankeen is pinging letters over and about. That is all. He is not _doing_ anything except transmitting the latest excuses to Galway. The latest excuse is that it will be sent to Europe.

I understand it cannot EVEN go to the Supreme Court until Dermot Ahern changes the practice rules of the Supreme Court or something along those lines. Then the dept of the Environment can take itself to the Supreme Court and flagellate itself in public and hope the Supreme Court takes pity on them and refers to Brussels.

If the Supreme Court refuses....and they are entitled to...Gormley will refer the matter by another means anyway although that is constitutionally fraught and will merely mean that Gormley will spend a year getting 'advice' or some such BS.

Remember that in Irish law they are clear to build the eastern half today from the N59 to the Airport but simply won't find the money to do it !!!! It's just that Dempsey and especially Gormley want to dick around legally in Brussels instead of finding the money and building that part of the bypass.

If the Supreme Court agrees to refer then the matter will lie around Brussels until at least this time next year and probably until after the 2012 election.

Back in Dempseys lap the redesign of the western section in Tonabrocky is progressing splendidly NOT, no new routes are being evaluated at present and no new EIS is being planned. The Bypass is unfunded in 2010.

Tell Frank to tell Dermot Ahern to get the finger out if you see him, that would be a start

Right now we are 2 years away from issuing a TENDER on the Galway Bypass and at least 3 years away form diggers a digging. Fact.

Fahey is hoping nobody notices, especially with an election coming up.

Fahey got rid of that website of his http://www.isupportthebypass.com/

Remember that one ??

?Cee?view

Sponge Bob wrote: »

He is not _doing_ anything except transmitting the latest excuses to Galway. The latest excuse is that it will be sent to Europe.

So is the letter Fahey (or whoever) leaked, just Dempsey's excuses to Fahey. Is Fahey taking him to task on any of these do you know?

Sponge Bob

churchview wrote: »

So is the letter Fahey (or whoever) leaked, just Dempsey's excuses to Fahey.

Precisely. Fahey is free to write to Gormley too but never does. Fahey could take a delegation with him to meet Gormley. I am sure 1000's of Galway people would happily give out to Gormley and the greens for being morons were they asked to help.

Is Fahey taking him to task on any of these do you know?

Nope. At this moment in time Dempsey is free to build the east/north section of the bypass but Fahey is constantly trying to obfuscate that with a 2 step BS exchange between him and Dempsey.

Dempsey funded no work whatsoever on the bypass in 2010 and Fahey is scrambling around trying to hide that and make himself look good too

?Cee?view

Makes my blood boil!

antoobrien

http://www.galwaynews.ie/12197-chief-justice-speed-hearing-city-bypass

The county council has applied to have hearings expedited to speed up the planning process.

From the article: “No date for hearing has been set, but what he did do is set out a timetable for preparation for the hearing, which allows the appellant lodge books of appeal.

That allows three weeks for the appellants (from mid-March) and a further two weeks for the respondents [the County Council and National Roads Authority]. (more in the connacht tribune from Thurs 8 April).

Hopefully this will cut out a few months of wrangling and get this where it needs to be - either Europe (where it's likely to go) or on track for development and planning of the western half of the bypass (which ABP rejected).

Chris_5339762

If I was in charge I'd start building the approved section TOMORROW (money would be found) with the unapproved section starting as soon as is humanly possible (with EIS etc sped up massively and any oral hearings ASAP).

I think if the government got the finger out it would be possible to have the road finished and open by the Ocean Race 2012, but we know THAT wont happen.

L1011

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

If I was in charge I'd start building the approved section TOMORROW (money would be found) with the unapproved section starting as soon as is humanly possible (with EIS etc sped up massively and any oral hearings ASAP).

I think if the government got the finger out it would be possible to have the road finished and open by the Ocean Race 2012, but we know THAT wont happen.

Considering we only got the expidited N7 widening and Rxxx realingment/Lxxxx resurfacings for the Ryder Cup finished by the thing being delayed an entire year due to 9/11, this, unfortunately, is fantasy in Ireland

123easy

I predict the Galway Bypass will be open to traffic in 2022. Apparently Peter Sweetman will be cutting the tape at the opening ceremony flanked by An Taoiseach Frankeen

KevR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzemTC_JsGU&feature=player_embedded

Cringeworthy Fianna Fail propaganda but interesting all the same with some City business leaders backing the bypass. The air shots really don't do the nightmare traffic justice either - were clearly filmed at a time when traffic was pretty light. If you use the bird's eye view on Bing Maps you will be able to see the extent of traffic problems on some roads a lot better than the above video.

Amtmann

Why are FF campaigning for the bypass? They actually, run the country, don't they?

Chris_5339762

Its pure vote-grabbing by Fahey.

yermanoffthetv

Furet wrote: »

Why are FF campaigning for the bypass? They actually, run the country, don't they?

Not really, thats done by the EU now:pac: The money is gonna have come from EDB, maybe theyre campaigning to them!

antoobrien

Furet wrote: »

Why are FF campaigning for the bypass? They actually, run the country, don't they?

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Its pure vote-grabbing by Fahey.

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Not really, thats done by the EU now:pac: The money is gonna have come from EDB, maybe theyre campaigning to them!

FF (yes they are the government) are the only party that have attemtped to do anything about this. I've never heard anything from FG, the Greens (O'Brollochain) and Labour have had councilors (the Connolly sisters) and local election candidates (the local an taisce mouthpiece ran in '99) actively opposing the bypass.

It may be votegrabbing but basically this is a call to arms of the people who want to see this happen to silence what, and i agree with this, frankeen believes to be the vocal, millitant, very minor minority of the people of Galway.

Maybe it's time for the the people of galway to take this out of the hands of the politicians. It's been going on for over 10 years and all we've gotten is objections and people claiming cynicism of the government TDs and councilors (who are the only ones i've heard attempting to support this).

antoobrien

http://www.galwaynews.ie/12924-date-set-supreme-court-challenges-outer-city-bypass

Peter Sweetman's case and a second case by Hands Across the Corrib against An Bord Pleanála will be up for mention before the Chief Justice on Thursday. [20/5]

The Supreme Court will then hear Mr. Sweetman's case on June 2nd and the second case on June 10th.

Hopefully this will get things going where they need to go, even it it only results in it being referred to Europe.

antoobrien

There has been a facebook page added to get people to show support of the bypass http://www.facebook.com/pages/Support-the-Galway-City-Outer-Bypass/112770645431558

If you're on facebook, register your support, if not tell your friends

?Cee?view

antoobrien wrote: »

There has been a facebook page added to get people to show support of the bypass http://www.facebook.com/pages/Support-the-Galway-City-Outer-Bypass/112770645431558

If you're on facebook, register your support, if not tell your friends

Done and I've sent an invitation to over 100 others.