M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

mysterious

I Kinsaled the two roundabout section into one Kinsale interchange. There is planety of land adjacent and gives a distrubutor road to alllow local traffic to still get from either junctions.

I will then post the second bridge crossing.

Anyway if they can do this in Cork, I cant see why they can do it here. I think the outer ring is a complete waste of money. Barna does not need a motorway to the N6.

?Cee?view

This below is the latest on galwaynews.ie. It gives me even less confidence that this will go ahead as soon as its needed when I see Dempsey involved!



GOVERNMENT SEEKS EU RULING ON OUTER CITY BYPASS

January 26, 2010 - 8:25am The Government wants the European Court of Justice to rule on Galway's Outer city bypass.
In a letter sent to Galway West Deputy Frank Fahy last Friday, Transport Minister Noel Dempsey said the State supports a referral of one of the legal challenges to the bypass to the European Court of Justice.
Minister Dempsey says this is the best way to get legal certainty on the interpretation of the EU Habitats Directive.
The Minister also says the European Commission has expressed serious concerns with An Bord Pleanála's interpretation of the Directive.

?Cee?view

mysterious wrote: »

I think the outer ring is a complete waste of money. Barna does not need a motorway to the N6.

Any morning, Monday to Friday, sit in the traffic coming in the Kingston Road and then see if you'll still believe this statement. Traffic volumes on this road are ridiculous.

Also, and this may shock you, there is civilisation to the west of Barna. Have you ever heard of those mythical people who inhabit areas called the Gaeltacht? They have industries which need road networks. There's a place called Rossaveel where fishing is very important and which requires a modern road network. There are also rumoured to be islands off the west coast called the Aran Islands which contribute to an industry called tourism where thousands of people go there and back (mainly by road to Rossaveel) every day. Udarás na Gaeltachta apparently encourage companies to set up west of Barna as well. All of these contribute to road usage, and all are currently funnelled directly through residential areas (Kingston, Knocknacarra, Taylor's Hill, Salthill, Claddagh, Newcastle etc. etc.).

D.L.R.

churchview wrote: »

Any morning, Monday to Friday, sit in the traffic coming in the Kingston Road and then see if you'll still believe this statement. Traffic volumes on this road are ridiculous.

Also, and this may shock you, there is civilisation to the west of Barna. Have you ever heard of those mythical people who inhabit areas called the Gaeltacht? They have industries which need road networks. There's a place called Rossaveel where fishing is very important and which requires a modern road network. There are also rumoured to be islands off the west coast called the Aran Islands which contribute to an industry called tourism where thousands of people go there and back (mainly by road to Rossaveel) every day. Udarás na Gaeltachta apparently encourage companies to set up west of Barna as well. All of these contribute to road usage, and all are currently funnelled directly through residential areas (Kingston, Knocknacarra, Taylor's Hill, Salthill, Claddagh, Newcastle etc. etc.).

You're only undermining your own points with that tone. As for the dire need for infrastructure in your area, join the queue mate.

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

I think the outer ring is a complete waste of money. Barna does not need a motorway to the N6.

It needs to be built. I think the worst part is actually getting to the R336 as you have to navigate though the streets of the city centre to access it. It's a very busy road which is not suprising seen as it is one of the main roads out of the city. Therefore it has to be included in the bypass, there is no point swinging the bypass as far as the N59.

Seriously this is not a waste of money, Galway city has very poor road infrastructure in general compared to other cities in the republic. Limerick will have a full dual bypass by June this year. To go with that the main routes are utterly shocking exiting the city the N84, N59 and yes the N17 at Claregalway. To think you presume Galway will survive on at-grade roundabouts with 1hr long traffic queues for the forseeable future is quite staggering.

Btw The barna bypass isint full dual AFAIK. 2+2 or S2 should be ok past the An Cheapach junction

?Cee?view

D.L.R. wrote: »

You're only undermining your own points with that tone. As for the dire need for infrastructure in your area, join the queue mate.

Problem is I'm in the queue for well more than a decade...mate!

You're proabably right about my tone though. I'm sick to the teeth of various nimbys (not including you in this...I've no idea of your take on the bypass) spouting rhetoric and ignoring the facts.

I note that the points (whatever about the tone) have apparently been ignored by the poster whom I quoted.

Sponge Bob

churchview wrote: »

January 26, 2010 - 8:25am The Government wants the European Court of Justice to rule on Galway's Outer city bypass.
In a letter sent to Galway West Deputy Frank Fahy last Friday, Transport Minister Noel Dempsey said the State supports a referral of one of the legal challenges to the bypass to the European Court of Justice.
Minister Dempsey says this is the best way to get legal certainty on the interpretation of the EU Habitats Directive.
The Minister also says the European Commission has expressed serious concerns with An Bord Pleanála's interpretation of the Directive.

The good news is that it allows the NRA to get on with the redesign/eis/cpo from the N59 to the R336 assuming that Dempsey funds the redesign/eis/cpo and that he has not cancelled it on his list of 94 cancelled projects that he told nobody about yet.

This 'referral' process can take 6 months (at best) but usually takes 2 - 3 years. It can only be done in 6 months if Dempsey/Gormley/Our judges state that it is urgent.

It involves a member state covering its ass by asking for an opinion under what is called an Article 234 or Article 68 procedure. To confuse matter further I believe that since we voted for Nice ( or was that Lisbon) this has become known as an Article 267 procedure.

Note that the referral is based on "one of the legal challenges" and this is most likely the Gormley/NPWS challenge rather than the Sweetman case being referred.

I suspect that the Judge in the High Court has to do the referral. If not then it would be Gormley ( in charge of planning) or the Attorney General on his behalf.

?Cee?view

Thanks for all that detail Sponge Bob.

Not a hope that Gormley will do anything to help (on pretty much anything, not just this road:D). He's already thrown his oar in with those who are objecting to this project regardless of any duty to act ministerially rather than for narrow sectional interests.

Unfortunately our hope seems to lie with Dempsey who hopefully will be pushed by Fahey or possibly Geoghegan Quinn?

Great that a section can go ahead straight away (unless Dempsey has bowed to pressure)

Sponge Bob

churchview wrote: »

Great that a section can go ahead straight away (unless Dempsey has bowed to pressure)

None of it can go ahead except maybe for the section from Furbo to the junction at Barna Golf Club. That would be a start

The western 'Tonabrocky' section was chucked by the Bord Pleanála last year and needs a redesign ( funded by Dempsey) . Lazy Galway journalists would be advised to write to Dempsey to ensure that is funded and that the redesign is submitted to an Bord Pleanála this year if required.

In fact the redisgn in Tonabrocky should be complete unless it was one of the 94 cancelled road projects in the programme for Government back in October. Dempsey also need to fund an EIS and some CPO work, has he done that by any chance ???

The eastern section, from Glenlo Abbey to the Airport is the one being referred to Europe for an opinion. That will take until September 2010 minimum ....judges need holidays too...and a Court opinion is unlikely this year unless the Court is told that the matter is "Urgent"

Do you trust Dempsey Cowen Fahey Gormley or any combination of that lot to clearly inform the European Court that their opinion is "Urgent" because I certainly do not

Absent such a categorisation from the Irish government the European Court will most likely take 2 years to deliver its opinion.

If that delayed opinion is unfavourable the eastern section is back to the drawing Board in 2012 some time and thereafter to a 1 year EIS and Then CPO / Bord Pleanála _again_ in 2015 or so.

?Cee?view

Sponge Bob wrote: »

None of it can go ahead except maybe for the section from Furbo to the junction at Barna Golf Club. That would be a start

The western 'Tonabrocky' section was chucked by the Bord Pleanála last year and needs a redesign ( funded by Dempsey) . Lazy Galway journalists would be advised to write to Dempsey to ensure that is funded and that the redesign is submitted to an Bord Pleanála this year if required.

In fact the redisgn in Tonabrocky should be complete unless it was one of the 94 cancelled road projects in the programme for Government back in October. Dempsey also need to fund an EIS and some CPO work, has he done that by any chance ???

The eastern section, from Glenlo Abbey to the Airport is the one being referred to Europe for an opinion. That will take until September 2010 minimum ....judges need holidays too...and a Court opinion is unlikely this year unless the Court is told that the matter is "Urgent"

Do you trust Dempsey Cowen Fahey Gormley or any combination of that lot to clearly inform the European Court that their opinion is "Urgent" because I certainly do not

Absent such a categorisation from the Irish government the European Court will most likely take 2 years to deliver its opinion.

If that delayed opinion is unfavourable the eastern section is back to the drawing Board in 2012 some time and thereafter to a 1 year EIS and Then CPO / Bord Pleanála _again_ in 2015 or so.

You're not painting a pretty picture . By the sound of things, this could take another ten years at least if things don't go well. Mutton Island all over again, except that this time the town will be choking in traffic rather than drwoning in sh1t! All because of a lunatic fringe element.

I've no confidence in "our" politicians to get this sorted, and there won't be much pressure on them to do so as Galway journalists only seem able to redeliver the latest soundbites from the anti-road crowd, without pointing out why the road is needed or gauging the opinion of people who are directly effected.

Thanks again.

Sponge Bob

churchview wrote: »

I've no confidence in "our" politicians to get this sorted, and there won't be much pressure on them to do so as Galway journalists only seem able to redeliver the latest soundbites from the anti-road crowd, without pointing out why the road is needed or gauging the opinion of people who are directly effected.

Galway journalists typically pull themselves together about 10 minutes before copy deadlines and paste a press release into their copy. Frank Fahey will ensure he emails it in 11 minutes before copy deadline

I could be wrong but I reckon this is what the waffling between Dempsey and Fahey is about.

The Lisbon Treaty is ACTUALLY called the Treaty on the functionning of the European Union ( TFEU) since our recent referendum.

The full text of Article 267 (was 234) reads.

Article 267
(ex Article 234 TEC)
The Court of Justice of the European Union shall have jurisdiction to give preliminary rulings
concerning:
(a) the interpretation of the Treaties;
(b) the validity and interpretation of acts of the institutions, bodies, offices or agencies of the Union;
Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to give judgment, request
the Court to give a ruling thereon.

Where any such question is raised in a case pending before a court or tribunal of a Member State against whose decisions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court.

If such a question is raised in a case pending before a court or tribunal of a Member State with regard to a person in custody, the Court of Justice of the European Union shall act with the minimum of delay.

My reading is that an appeal is made to the Supreme court first (no mad rush appealing there if you are Gormley) and the Supreme Court THEN kicks it off to Brussels under article 267. It is akin to the Irish "Case Stated" manner of referral.

It may not be classified "urgent" as nobody is in custody. Here is an example referral which took the best part two years to process and which is analagous to what I am talking about.

Alternatively the matter may be referred by Dempsey/Gormley/Attorney General to the EU Commission who may refer the matter to the ECJ under Article 258 for a decision. That used to be known as an Article 226 Procedure by the way

This would take even longer because it would require Gormley to seek and receive an opinion after which the Commission refers the matter to the ECJ and the 2 year clock starts then. I suspect that a deliberate attempt to prod an Article 258 referral out of the commission would be unconstitutional at least in spirit and therefore consider the Article 267 procedure to be the more likely outcome once an appeal to the Supreme Court is actually made that is.

Article 258
(ex Article 226 TEC)
If the Commission considers that a Member State has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties, it shall deliver a reasoned opinion on the matter after giving the State concerned the opportunity to
submit its observations.

If the State concerned does not comply with the opinion within the period laid down by the Commission, the latter may bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union.

HTH

( Even if you are a galway journalist reading this )

?Cee?view

Whatever about the journalists, I hope Galway's councillors and our national respresentatives read what you've just written. I'm confident that the vast majority of them wouldn't have much of a clue of what you've written and I'm also confident that most civil servants would struggle to provide them with such a succinct analysis.

Thanks again.

Personally EU Law always puts me straight to sleep, but I may have to increase my caffeine intake and read up a bit if it'll help in some small way to understand what they (our representatives) are at, or not at!

?Cee?view

mysterious wrote: »

Give me a break. In the diagram above, I just removed two roundabouts to make a Kinsale type interhcange and a distrubuter road to separate local traffic. A bridge further upstream and widening of the existing road to Barna.

I'm sorry but Barna and the Wesht does not need a full blown motorway. A town the size of Galway wouldn't even get a motorway in the first place.

And there is very liittle civilzation west of Galway to need this kind of white elephant road scheme. It is very damaging to the sensistive environment of the Gaeltacht region.

They can upgrade the existing bypass. There is planet of land, and there is a wide median in some parts also.

There is no chance in hell this road will get the go ahead in its current form. If it does go ahead it will most lilkey scaled down and incoporated into the existing bypass in some way.

1. There is no existing bypass.

2. Barna and the "Wesht" as you put it certainly do not warrant a Motorway. None is proposed.

3. The population of between 20,000 to 22,000 in Knocknacarra alone might disagree with your assessment that a bypass isn't needed.

4. If sustainable public transport, and a safe cycling network is to be established, the car must be removed for city and residential areas unless it is accessing rather than traversing those areas.

Sponge Bob

churchview wrote: »

2. Barna and the "Wesht" as you put it certainly do not warrant a Motorway. None is proposed.

Barna had AADT of 14k in March 2007 which was only slightly less than Adare with AADT 16k in March 2007.

Both roads are busier in summer. While it is almost as deserving as Adare of a motorway I do not think one should be built either.

Unlike Adare it directly serves a nearby port that carries almost 8k persons a week on average and an airport too but most of those people travel by bus. It would be possible that more persons transit Barna every day than do Adare and it would be probable that per person movements are identical.

Yet to listen to some of the squealing in this forum about Adare you would think Adare was as busy as Claregalway which is twice as busy as either Adare or Barna is.

Needless to say I very much look forward to this recently promised map of the 'new' new bridge in Galway

KevR

I'm in the IT Building in NUI Galway and can see out onto the Quincentennial Bridge. It has been like a carpark since 4pm and will stay that way until at least 6:30pm when it will start easing, probably won't be free-flowing until 7pm at least. Same chronic congestion every single day.

I usually walk home from college at 7:30/8pm and the Seamus Quirke & Bishop O'Donnell are always still bumper to bumper at that stage. Most days the Seamus Quirke & Bishop O'Donnell will not clear all day from once morning rush starts until well after evening rush (basically avoid from 8am until 8pm).

When I was working in Athlone, it was never worth my while leaving work before 6pm as I would hit bad traffic in Galway and it would take forever to get across the city. Some Friday's I just couldn't sit in the office on my own with everyone else gone home so I'd leave at 4pm and without fail, I would get to Oranmore in an hour and a half and it would take another hour to get from Oranmore to Westside. Absolute torture!

There aren't any working permanent traffic counters in Galway City but there was an extensive traffic survey done a few months back. I'd love to see the figures; I might email Galway City Council when I get a chance to see if they are releasing the figures.

Sponge Bob

KevR wrote: »

There aren't any working permanent traffic counters in Galway City but there was an extensive traffic survey done a few months back. I'd love to see the figures; I might email Galway City Council when I get a chance to see if they are releasing the figures.

I remember it late 2009 , it was bloody massive in scale. It may have been related to the bypass redesign around Tonabrocky so the NRA may also have the data.

KevR

Yeah, it was really extensive. Interesting though that the Seamus Quirke/Bishop O'Donnell didn't have a traffic count done on it given the notorious congestion and that it is a road which has been pushing for an upgrade for a long time.

The nearest permanent traffic counter to Galway City is on the M6 at Junction 19, on the mainline between the off-ramp and on-ramp. Therefore, no traffic leaving or entering at J19 is counted; unless there are counters on the slips which I have missed (doubtful!).

Sponge Bob

I thought they did all the ingress and egress routes to SQR and they can derive the SQR stats which are well over 25k AADT if not 30k AADT I should think from that.

KevR

Sponge Bob, I think you're right about them doing all the roads leading into/out of the SQR. However, I could get home to Highfield Park from the Quincentennial Bridge via the SQR without passing over any traffic counters after the one on the bridge*. Think it was the same if you were going to some parts of Shantalla and some other estates in Westside also. They should be able to get a fair idea of Seamus Quirke Bishop O'Donnell traffic levels though.


*The traffic counter on the Rahoon Road was the wrong side of the entrance to Highfield to count me. They couldn't just move to the other side though, they really would have needed one each side of the entrance to catch everyone. Same goes for Shantalla and the other estates.

L1011

And I'm going to be genuinely affected by it tomorrow, having to fight my way from NUIG to Oranmore at lunchtime...

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Barna had AADT of 14k in March 2007 which was only slightly less than Adare with AADT 16k in March 2007.

Both roads are busier in summer. While it is almost as deserving as Adare of a motorway I do not think one should be built either.

Unlike Adare it directly serves a nearby port that carries almost 8k persons a week on average and an airport too but most of those people travel by bus. It would be possible that more persons transit Barna every day than do Adare and it would be probable that per person movements are identical.

Yet to listen to some of the squealing in this forum about Adare you would think Adare was as busy as Claregalway which is twice as busy as either Adare or Barna is.

Needless to say I very much look forward to this recently promised map of the 'new' new bridge in Galway

Adare has higher volumes than that, and it also has a higher volume of H.G.Vs.

Btw its 2010 not 2007.

Adare serves larger popualations than Barna. Adare is national primary route, Barna is a commuter tourist route. The traffic generated at Barna is 80% commuter traffic going from Barna to Galway. After barna it dies down to 7,000 a day.

There is no comparison.

1000s of cars take backroads around Adare to avoid queses, just as they did with Kildare, Traffic in Kildare only peaked 19.000 a day, in the year of the motorway opening it shot up to 25,000 and now 33,000 a day.


Same with Enfield had 21,000 a day.
The motorway now has 24,000 A.a.d.t with 8,000 avoiding the toll. So thats now 32.000 cars.

Basically bottleneckks always have a large volume of traffic avoiding the road because of tailbacks.

Adare is going to be motorway since its already DC volumes and will connect to the M20 anyhow.

?Cee?view

mysterious wrote: »

I do and i can see the alignment of the road, and i'm doing an estimate better than you ever will.:P

I see your still begruding that I can come up with solutions.

I divide my time between central Dublin and the Kingston Road in Galway. My "agenda" on this subject is that I'd much prefer if there was the ability to travel from Galway to Dublin without going through Galway, particularly as Galway is the only town on this whole route that isn't bypassed. This would save me a considerable amount of time, and on a less selfish level would obviously help thousands of others and encourage trade.

Additionally I hate to see my home town destroyed by traffic which could be alleviated by a bypass.

Now, you've ignored me so far mysterious, but could you explain this?

What's your agenda here; do you have an agenda; or is your intention merely to obfuscate and irritate?

KevR

KevR wrote: »

I'm in the IT Building in NUI Galway and can see out onto the Quincentennial Bridge. It has been like a carpark since 4pm and will stay that way until at least 6:30pm when it will start easing, probably won't be free-flowing until 7pm at least. Same chronic congestion every single day.

When I was leaving college just after 7pm, Westbound traffic was backed up the whole way across the bridge and back to the Galway Shopping Centre Roundabout!! Eastbound traffic was free-flowing by that stage though.

MYOB wrote: »

And I'm going to be genuinely affected by it tomorrow, having to fight my way from NUIG to Oranmore at lunchtime...

Don't know if you're familiar with NUIG at all but best of luck trying to find a parking space unless you get here very early in the morning. Also, be careful where you park as the clampers are very strict.

L1011

KevR wrote: »

Don't know if you're familiar with NUIG at all but best of luck trying to find a parking space unless you get here very early in the morning. Also, be careful where you park as the clampers are very strict.

I know Galway very well, its actually not NUIG I'm going to, somewhere right beside it instead. But I've got to go to NUIG often enough!

Sponge Bob

The Galway Independent indicates that the government is most likely angling for a supreme court case. Not a bad article by Indo standards. I cannot see how any contract could be signed before 2011 now.

Thanks to John Gormley for all he and misc Green idiots like Catherine Connolly (no mistake) and O Brolacháin have done and for all the information his own staff leaked to Sweetman too.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/orange-light-for-outer-bypass/

The council and the National Roads Authority see this as an issue of competency for An Bord Pleanála; the National Parks and Wildlife People see this as an issue of competency for the European Commission,


"Deputy Fahey added "My worry is it now has to go before the Supreme Court. If they decide to take the case that will take time. Inevitably it will be referred to the ECJ. I feel they are ways to avoid that and that is my main priority.

antoobrien

mysterious wrote: »

Adare serves larger populations than Barna.

If the bypass was just about Bearna then you might have a valid point. But it's about moving large volumes of people around Galway city from both inside AND Outside the city area.

Lets take actual (i.e. NRA) figures - Adare carries about 15500 vehicles on average per day for 2009. Claregalway (not the village, somewhere around the central tavern before the N63 junction) takes on average about 23500 vehicles.

Not all of this traffic is going to the eastern half of Galway (hence the reason I spent 4 years cycling from Briarhill to NUIG, taking on average 25 mins less than by car and that was up to 2002). We have no accurate figures for what happens inside and the City Council (who ran the traffic survey before christmas) have not released the figures for internal traffic patterns in Galway, so from here we have to use common sense & guesses.

I'm going to say that the combination of the N/M6 carries at least as many vehicles into the Doughiska area - so we'll be conservative and say 23,500. The Monivea road is generally bumper to bumper for an hour or so in the morning - we'll call it 7,500 seeing as there will be some people moving away from both the N17 & N/M6 at this pont as well. I've no knowledge of the Headford road so I'll guess at 5,000 vehicles approaching Tirellan.

That makes the approaches to the eastern side of Galway carrying (conservatively IMO) an approx average of 60,000 vehicles per day. Given the state of the Quincentennial bridge I'm going to guess at approximately 1/3 traffic attempting to cross Galway city from east to west.

To my mind these figures (granted mostly guesses, but none of the anti bypass crowd are willing to actually use evidence to make a case for not building a new road & bridge) justify the proposed new traffic distribution system that the bypass and it's accesses will supply.

And lets not forget that over half the population of galway lives west of the corrib. If they don't have to fight for limited road space with the people from North East & South Galway, South Mayo & North Clare - who will use the road to get out of the center of Galway ASAP - their journey times, and quality of life will be vastly improved.

And also one the environmentalists don't want to mention - removing cars from gridlock reduces pollution & CO2 emissions.

KevR

A couple of summers ago when I was working in Ballybrit, I would sometimes be asked to work 2 shifts in the one day. The first shift would end at 4pm and the second one would start at 6pm. I wasn't able to go home between the 2 shifts because I wouldn't have made it back in time for the second shift because of the traffic. It's not even 5 miles (8km) and is do-able in 10-15 mins when there is no traffic.

And before anyone says anything - yes I could have cycled 20 miles and worked 2 long shifts but, unfortunately, I'm not superman. I cycled most of the time when only working one shift.

Tech3

Mod Note:

Right this thread has gotten rather ugly over the last 2 pages. Any more baiting or insulting of a poster will result in a weeks holdiay from Infrastructure just like what Mysterious is after recieving today. Some posts will be removed also.

Edit: I have deleted posts to bring this thread back to the high standard it was beforehand. Can we discuss the matter in a more peaceful manner from now on, thanks.

antoobrien

According to the advertiser the Gort to Tuam road should be completed in 2014. Hopefully the bypass will be on the way at that stage or Eastern Galway city will be an even bigger mess than it already is

?Cee?view

antoobrien wrote: »

According to the advertiser the Gort to Tuam road should be completed in 2014. Hopefully the bypass will be on the way at that stage or Eastern Galway city will be an even bigger mess than it already is

Am i right in thinking that if the bypass isn't completed, then all the Limerick/Cork/Shannon etc. traffic will very efficiently be funnelled into the Doughiska roundabout as well rather than seperately coming in via Oranmore?