M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

KevR

KevR wrote: »

I don't think we will ever see enough money from central government to really fix our transport problems. They will drip feed money for small patch fixes here and there.

What about a local sales tax and a city hotel tax?
This would have to be voted into existence by the people of Galway. (Obviously a master plan for transport would be needed before voting)
Funds would be ring fenced exclusively for the specified transport initiatives.

On the one hand, additional local tax might make Galway less competitive.
But our existing traffic woes are a huge disadvantage and (in my opinion) outweigh a very modest local tax.

Maybe Galway should take control of it's own destiny.
City Council and local elected representatives - they would need to step up big time.

https://la.curbed.com/2016/11/9/13573924/measure-m-los-angeles-public-transit-results

Tax is not applied in that manner in Ireland

Sam Russell

KevR wrote: »

I don't think we will ever see enough money from central government to really fix our transport problems. They will drip feed money for small patch fixes here and there.

What about a local sales tax and a city hotel tax?
This would have to be voted into existence by the people of Galway. (Obviously a master plan for transport would be needed before voting)
Funds would be ring fenced exclusively for the specified transport initiatives.

On the one hand, additional local tax might make Galway less competitive.
But our existing traffic woes are a huge disadvantage and (in my opinion) outweigh a very modest local tax.

Maybe Galway should take control of it's own destiny.
City Council and local elected representatives - they would need to step up big time.

https://la.curbed.com/2016/11/9/13573924/measure-m-los-angeles-public-transit-results

Galway does not have a sufficient population to get much local tax, outside of the Irish Water Local Property Tax, which is collected by Revenue. Even this can be reduced, but Galway have left it as is, but they could raise it by 15%. They could spend some on improving the bus service, but have not chosen to - maybe you should approach the City Councilors.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Galway does not have a sufficient population to get much local tax, outside of the Irish Water Local Property Tax, which is collected by Revenue. Even this can be reduced, but Galway have left it as is, but they could raise it by 15%. They could spend some on improving the bus service, but have not chosen to - maybe you should approach the City Councilors.

If Galway had to fund the Galway bypass it would take several years to fund the CPO and the bypass would have to be built as a tolled PPP to pay for it.

Galway should count their lucky stars that infrastructure deprived Dublin and Cork are continually funding their mega highway schemes.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Galway should count their lucky stars that infrastructure deprived Dublin and Cork are continually funding their mega highway schemes.

Careful now, that chip on your shoulder is showing through

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

Careful now, that chip on your shoulder is showing through

There's no chip on my shoulder. The M17/M18 has just been built and the N6 Galway RR and N59 Moycullen bypass will start in 2021/22. That's €1.2bn in transport funding, along with the current ongoing work by Arup in designing a new transport system for Galway post bypass.

To me, that's fairly respectable funding for Galway. Certainly no reason to be raising the issue of lack of funding.

I'm making the point that Galway trying to self fund its own transport projects would be totally unviable.

pat ticket

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Careful now, that chip on your shoulder is showing through

Its the truth though. There was some CSO stat from a few years ago showing that the Dublin region counties and Cork were the only ones contributing more then they were taking back, with the Dublin figure being massively lopsided iirc.

L1011

The idea that one area gets "too much" is what has lead to Cork being in a mess - after the cost of the tunnel and then later on the N28 DC, Kinsale roundabout and the East Cork Parkway in a short period of time it was effectively decided they had had too much and Sarsfield/Bandon (done now, I know), Dunkettle, the earlier ideas for the M28 and the North Ring were kicked down the road.

Galway needs the outer bypass and it also needs public transport works - a Renmore railway station for relatively cheap starters.

Bobeagleburger

Galway's traffic problem is an absolute joke these days.

By the time the ring road is built in 10 years it should be fun !

KevR

Sam Russell wrote: »

Galway does not have a sufficient population to get much local tax, outside of the Irish Water Local Property Tax, which is collected by Revenue. Even this can be reduced, but Galway have left it as is, but they could raise it by 15%. They could spend some on improving the bus service, but have not chosen to - maybe you should approach the City Councilors.

marno21 wrote: »

If Galway had to fund the Galway bypass it would take several years to fund the CPO and the bypass would have to be built as a tolled PPP to pay for it.

I quoted a post discussing public transport. I think the bypass is necessary and funding for this should come from central government (as per existing plans).

The bypass alone won't solve the problem. It will have to be supplemented by serious public transport improvements. Why not try to raise some extra funds locally to push some public transport improvements along?

The idea is that people would vote in a 30 to 40 year sales tax and city hotel tax.
Money would be borrowed to start projects in the short term. It would be paid back over 30 to 40 years.

marno21 wrote: »

Galway should count their lucky stars that infrastructure deprived Dublin and Cork are continually funding their mega highway schemes.

You are wrong. Looking at county-level revenue figures and county-level transport schemes is not relevant in a thread discussing Galway City transport problems.
Galway City definitely puts more into the pot than it gets back.

Galway is now connected to Dublin and Limerick by motorway. These are inter-urban motorways connecting entire regions. These motorways benefit many towns/cities. Let's not pretend that Galway City has exclusively benefited from these motorways.

Galway City has had no mega highway schemes. No significant transport investment in fact. No big spend to address transport problems within the city despite all the tax paid.

KevR

Deleted User wrote: »

Tax is not applied in that manner in Ireland

So?

We didn't used to have USC or LPT.

flatty

Is the bypass definitely going ahead??

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

There's no chip on my shoulder. The M17/M18 has just been built and the N6 Galway RR and N59 Moycullen bypass will start in 2021/22. That's €1.2bn in transport funding, along with the current ongoing work by Arup in designing a new transport system for Galway post bypass.

To me, that's fairly respectable funding for Galway. Certainly no reason to be raising the issue of lack of funding.

I'm making the point that Galway trying to self fund its own transport projects would be totally unviable.

There doesn't seem to be a hope of Dublin getting anything near that level of capital transport funding in the near future, despite being an urban region with about 15 times larger population. Luas Cross City cost €320m and the Phoenix Park Tunnel cost in the region €10. There's been a few new buses, trams and a couple of bridge renovations, level crossing closings etc. not adding up to very much. Galway is certainly doing very very very well with regard to capital investment in transport, compared to areas that need it more.

marno21

KevR wrote: »

I quoted a post discussing public transport. I think the bypass is necessary and funding for this should come from central government (as per existing plans).

The bypass alone won't solve the problem. It will have to be supplemented by serious public transport improvements. Why not try to raise some extra funds locally to push some public transport improvements along?

The idea is that people would vote in a 30 to 40 year sales tax and city hotel tax.
Money would be borrowed to start projects in the short term. It would be paid back over 30 to 40 years.




You are wrong. Looking at county-level revenue figures and county-level transport schemes is not relevant in a thread discussing Galway City transport problems.
Galway City definitely puts more into the pot than it gets back.

Galway is now connected to Dublin and Limerick by motorway. These are inter-urban motorways connecting entire regions. These motorways benefit many towns/cities. Let's not pretend that Galway City has exclusively benefited from these motorways.

Galway City has had no mega highway schemes. No significant transport investment in fact. No big spend to address transport problems within the city despite all the tax paid.

Money for PT would be allocated centrally by the NTA. In this case, Arup are working on a public transport concept for Galway post bypass. However, there are a few issues.

Where is Galway development going to be centred? Will we have a vibrant populous city centre or will everyone work in Parkmore and live in Knocknacarra or out the Monivea Road? There needs to be some sort of rigid development plan instead of the existing darts at a map approach.

In relation to the bypass, it's not really a city scheme. Someone living and working in the city won't benefit from it. It's a national scheme (N6) and needs to be developed correctly and not be riddled with development like the first city bypass.

If you think Galway hasn't got enough investment take a look at Cork.

KevR

marno21 wrote: »

Money for PT would be allocated centrally by the NTA. In this case, Arup are working on a public transport concept for Galway post bypass. However, there are a few issues.

Where is Galway development going to be centred? Will we have a vibrant populous city centre or will everyone work in Parkmore and live in Knocknacarra or out the Monivea Road? There needs to be some sort of rigid development plan instead of the existing darts at a map approach.

Yes, absolutely. A master plan is needed.

My suggestion of people voting on additional local consumption tax is based on the assumption that a master plan would be in place for transport and city development/growth. People would need to know what they are getting if they are voting to pay more tax.

marno21 wrote: »

If you think Galway hasn't got enough investment take a look at Cork.

Indeed, Cork has also suffered from huge under-investment in transport . I never said Cork or Dublin were rosey! It is ok to discuss transport for Galway, Cork or Dublin in isolation - it doesn't have to transcend into "well Cork has really bad transport so nothing should be done about the obvious transport problems in Galway".

I'm actually of the opinion that a great job has been done on inter-urban travel. Dublin is now connected to all regional cities by motorway which is fantastic. It doesn't just benefit private motorists - for example, there is a really good express bus service between Galway and Dublin now.
Limerick and Galway have recently been connected by motorway which is also fantastic. Hopefully, the Limerick to Cork motorway will be built ASAP. We will then have Galway - Limerick - Cork well connected.

Transport within all of our major urban areas has long been woeful.
Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway all need significant improvements. The current situation makes Ireland as whole less competitive. Not to mention, people's quality of life.

It's actually strange that we can do such a good job connecting towns and cities to each other while at the same time transport within the same towns and cities is dreadful.

hans aus dtschl

KevR wrote: »

It's actually strange that we can do such a good job connecting towns and cities to each other while at the same time transport within the same towns and cities is dreadful.

We didn't though.
We didn't do a good job connecting towns and cities to each other, plural. The money ran out. Cork is connected to Dublin only. Waterford is connected to Dublin only.

Limerick and Galway are the lucky regional cities who have two interurban routes.

Galway does obviously have transport issues particularly in the inner urban area but the regional infrastructural spend to date has been heavily in Galway's favour, whilst there's "not enough money" for other areas which should "be grateful for what they have".

With that said, I fundamentally agree with a portion of local tax being diverted to local public transport, as long as it's done as transparently as possible. So your point stands imo

what_traffic

marno21 wrote: »

In relation to the bypass, it's not really a city scheme. Someone living and working in the city won't benefit from it. It's a national scheme (N6) and needs to be developed correctly and not be riddled with development like the first city bypass.

Its not even a bypass, and the vast majority of it is to be built within the City Boundary. What is proposed is a City Ring Road/ Orbital Ring Road.

KevR

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

With that said, I fundamentally agree with a portion of local tax being diverted to local public transport, as long as it's done as transparently as possible. So your point stands imo

That would be key.

marno21

More bureaucracy holding up the new N6.. no planning submission until mid 2018

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/97123/ring-road-planning-application-will-not-be-ready-until-mid-2018

Middle Man

marno21 wrote: »

More bureaucracy holding up the new N6.. no planning submission until mid 2018

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/97123/ring-road-planning-application-will-not-be-ready-until-mid-2018

A few larges businesses (including multi-nationals) need to threaten to pull the plug - it's the only way to get things done in this country IMO.

marno21

Update from the Project.. Scheme to be submitted to ABP in Q1 2018, pending Governmental approval: http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/phase-3/bulletin-14-update-of-project-timeline-12122017/

I also note the use of the phrases "motorway order" and "protected road order". This would appear to me that the N6 element of this scheme could be M6 and the remainder to Barna would be a protected road (no motorway restrictions but there would be restrictions on access etc.. basically no shopping centres)

Unfortunately, it would be better if the scheme was proceeded as HQDC and redesignated motorway during the construction phase. This was done with many of the now opened motorways, most recently the N11 Arklow-Rathnew scheme. The practice of building them on a motorway order first came about with the M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy scheme which has attracted quite a large "anti-motorway" brigade, who seem to be happy with a "dual carriageway", even when told repeatedly that a motorway in this instance is a dual carriageway with blue signs and no bikes.

Time will tell.

spacetweek

It always amazes me how easy it is to fool people this way. The same trick works wonders in the UK. Propose a motorway, watch 10 years of legal and enviro action hold it up. Build an "expressway-standard dual carriageway", no problem.

Limerick74

Submission to ABP in February according to https://www.rte.ie/news/connacht/2018/0123/935319-galway-bypass/

marno21

Good. Reasonably on time in that case - hopefully be ready to go in 2021.

Galway County Council - the lead agency for the project - says it has been designed to be robust enough to withstand any possible challenge.

I would hope so. Between the challenge to the last project and the expected challenges to this it would want to be.

Middle Man

marno21 wrote: »

Good. Reasonably on time in that case - hopefully be ready to go in 2021.



I would hope so. Between the challenge to the last project and the expected challenges to this it would want to be.

The Field mentality is certainly alive and well...

what_traffic

Middle Man wrote: »

The Field mentality is certainly alive and well...

No its not.
I doubt you would be so dismissive if your home was one of the 50(40 demolished + 10 uninhabitable) that are proposed to be demolished for this Urban Expressway/City Ring Road.
This ABP submission date of Feb 2018 is way behind schedule because they have to engage with all these homeowners and there family's. If it was just a bunch of fields the ABP submission would have been submitted 18 months ago.

Zzippy

what_traffic wrote: »

No its not.
I doubt you would be so dismissive if your home was one of the 41 that are proposed to be demolished for this Urban Expressway/City Ring Road.
This ABP submission date of Feb 2018 is way behind schedule because they have to engage with all these homeowners and there family's. If it was just a bunch of fields the ABP submission would have been submitted 18 months ago.

We were sale agreed on one of those houses before it emerged that the road would affect it. I feel very sorry for the lady living there, she's a widow who wanted to downsize and move nearer kids/grandkids, now she's already been stuck there 3 years longer than she wanted, and faces several more before CPO goes through. In the meantime property prices where she wanted to move have gone through the roof. We dodged a bullet by sheer luck but for people in that situation it's truly horrible.

Middle Man

what_traffic wrote: »

No its not.
I doubt you would be so dismissive if your home was one of the 41 that are proposed to be demolished for this Urban Expressway/City Ring Road.
This ABP submission date of Feb 2018 is way behind schedule because they have to engage with all these homeowners and there family's. If it was just a bunch of fields the ABP submission would have been submitted 18 months ago.

If it’s my home, once they make good and that the scheme is highly beneficial to the area or that it is of strategic importance (regionally or nationally) then I’d just move on. We can’t be too selfish...

Donegal Storm

Middle Man wrote: »

If it’s my home, once they make good and that the scheme is highly beneficial to the area or that it is of strategic importance (regionally or nationally) then I’d just move on. We can’t be too selfish...

Easy to say from your comfortable position. If I found out tomorrow that the home that's been in my family for generations was to be bulldozed for a bit of tarmac I'd certainly make sure to explore every avenue to find an alternative.

If there's no alternative and I'm suitably compensated then fair enough but you can't blame people for wanting to keep their homes

what_traffic

Zzippy wrote: »

We were sale agreed on one of those houses before it emerged that the road would affect it. I feel very sorry for the lady living there, she's a widow who wanted to downsize and move nearer kids/grandkids, now she's already been stuck there 3 years longer than she wanted, and faces several more before CPO goes through. In the meantime property prices where she wanted to move have gone through the roof. We dodged a bullet by sheer luck but for people in that situation it's truly horrible.

Ya heard similar story's like this from the previous "Galway City Outer Bypass/GCOB" proposal as well but this was in the main for land, not peoples homes. (8 homes were proposed to be demolished for the GGOB; 50(40 demolished + 10 uninhabitable) are been proposed for the Galway City Ring Road/Urban Expressway)

Cookiemunster

Homes and businesses get CPOed on every major road scheme. Galway isn't unique to this process. The designers try to avoid this as much as possible, but there's only so far you can go, so some people are always going to be put out.