Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

RayCun

mithril wrote: »

How about 2:3x:xx for the marathon? The pattern of improvement in your times suggests it's a possibility with another season of training?

Janey mack, does he not get a week to rest on his laurels before being driven back out to do more training?

Krusty_Clown

mithril wrote: »

How about 2:3x:xx for the marathon? The pattern of improvement in your times suggests it's a possibility with another season of training?

I don't really think so mithril. I don't think the body would hold up to that kind of punishment. I've had to increase my mileage for every new PB, and this season has seen a lot of repeat visits to the physio and persistent niggles.

Krusty_Clown

tisnotover wrote: »

Can you list for us what ure progression has been again for your last few marathons, thanks!

Here's my marathon progression (from another thread):
Longford Marathon August 2008 - 3:25 (40 mpw)
Berlin Marathon September 2009 - 3:00 (50 mpw)
Barcelona Marathon March 2010 - 2:55 (59 mpw)
Berlin Marathon September 2010 - 2:48 (63 mpw).

I've run some other marathons, but they were either pacing, or training runs. I also ran Dublin two months after my first marathon in Longford, and took three minutes off my PB, which I didn't bother to list, as it wasn't a separate training phase.

Seres

RayCun wrote: »

Janey mack, does he not get a week to rest on his laurels before being driven back out to do more training?

sucess never sleeps :pac:

mithril

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I don't really think so mithril. I don't think the body would hold up to that kind of punishment. I've had to increase my mileage for every new PB, and this season has seen a lot of repeat visits to the physio and persistent niggles.

I was expecting a response closer to what RayCun provided.

But if you want to discuss it seriously, niggles are part and parcel of competitive athletics, and you don't seem too badly impacted. When you have to stop training for weeks, then it's a concern; if you have to shuffle an occasional hard and easy day, then it's something you accept. Moving away from marathons to either concentrate on PBs at shorter distances, or alternatively tackling ultras, both will expose you to at least as much stress if you want to compete at an equivalent level.

1. You are probably at the limit of what a packaged program like P&D can provide. Would you consider getting personalized coaching? Alternatively, you could get LT and V02 accurately measured and build a better program around this which would give you a better return on your training effort.
2. 60 miles is still quite low for the level you are at. You are supposed to improve linearly up to 70 miles, and after that its up to you how far you want to take it.
3. Give up the regular beer sessions.

Do all 3 of these and you should take out 2:40 next year.

BeepBeep67

Hi Krusty after having some time for reflection on your fanstastic achievement, what do you feel were the most important elements of the plan?
What would you carry forward and anything you would drop/change?

• Key Session (interval, tempo, hills, or?)
• Key LSR (distance and placing within schedule)
• Taper
• Pre marathon races
• Diet / Nutrition
• Shoe choice
• Other

Tnx
Dom

Abhainn

KC I kept progress of you on the live tracker untill 35k. I could no longer delay my scheduled long run any further:)
Knowing you finish strong I was fairly sure you would get your 2:48, and you did just that. What can I say? Perfectly planned and executed. Congrats

Krusty_Clown

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Hi Krusty after having some time for reflection on your fanstastic achievement, what do you feel were the most important elements of the plan?

Hi Dom, firstly I don't see the achievement as that fantastic at all. No false modesty here, It's another 7 minutes taken off of my PB, just like anyone taking a similar amount of time off of their PB, and didn't really come at a significantly higher price, other than having to run extra miles (an extra 70 miles over the same period in my last training phase) and higher intensity training (faster). I did take a moment to relish my time after crossing the finish line, as a year ago I would never have dreamed of breaking 2:50 (or 3:00 for that matter), but when you go from one marathon to the next and chip away a few minutes each time, it's just a logical progression, rather than any amazing achievement. 'Amazing' is an adjective that should be reserved for those who are breaking new ground, like taking 20-30 mins off a PB, or recording a very fast first marathon. Seres pointed out that my report came across more like a 10k. The truth is that I now see a marathon in the same way that I used to see a 10k race a few years ago.

What would you carry forward and anything you would drop/change?

Here's my training calendar for the last few months, from the initial 10k right through to the last week. That's a total of 20 weeks training, covering 970 miles. The blanket answer is that I would carry all of it forward, and would follow a very similar program again, because I know it works for me.

I would start with a 6-8 week 10k training program (something that Tergat had previously advocated), including the tempo runs, 400m intervals and 1km hill repeats. I added the hill repeats to the program and extended the long runs to get ready for the marathon program. It was a tough 8 weeks, but it got me more than ready to launch into a program that starts with 50 mpw, and 15 miles w/8 miles @ PMP, so you really have to be ready for it.

Then I would shift into a similar marathon plan, that starts as it means to go on, with solid PMP runs, tempo runs, moving into Vo2max 5k runs, and either run progression runs, or try to finish all of my long runs fast (at or close to PMP).

Would I follow a P&D program again? I don't really see any reason not to (using it as a template). I'm not sure that an internet based 1-1 plan would suit me any better (it would suit me fine, but would it be any better?), so the only logical alternative would be to go the club route, and hope that I'd get the attention I needed, and with a 2:48, which is probably median standard in a club, I'm not sure that I would. Half of the battle with marathon training is finding a program/style that suits you (and doesn't kill you). I'm lucky enough to have found one that gives me consistent gains, without having to hit very high mileage. I've never run with a club other than Boards AC buddies though, so I could be a bit naive in terms of the potential gains.

• Key Session (interval, tempo, hills, or?)
  >> Yes! All of them! The 400m intervals @1 mile pace really pushed the barriers for me, but it was the tempo runs (6 miles @6min/mile) and 5k intervals that helped solidify those faster paces, and make them feel more normal. The two races (10mile and 10k were also very important sessions, from a confidence perspective.
• Key LSR (distance and placing within schedule)
  >> The 30 mile marathon was a bad idea. I know that know, and probably wouldn't do it again (but a 26.2 mile marathon would have been ok!). I followed P&D's guidance for the pmp runs, but followed my own guidance for non-PMP runs, and ran longer and more 20+ mile runs. I finished them all at a fast pace, and this proved hugely beneficial in Barcelona and Berlin. Sticking to the P&D PMP runs was important from a discipline perspective.
• Taper
  >> P&D doesn't really feel like a proper taper. You never really feel that rested as you maintain the quality. I mean a 10k race, followed by an 18 mile run the next day is tough. Three days later, you run 3x1 mile intervals @5K pace. Tough! but the mileage drops steadily, so you are recovering without noticing it.
• Pre marathon races
  >> Like I said, these are critical, from both an endurance and confidence perspective. Endurance, because they are all twinned with a long run the next day and confidence, as they help to confirm your target race pace.
• Diet / Nutrition
  >> Very important. I eat very healthy all of the time (munching on couscous with sweetcorn, chicken and courgette at the moment), but healthy doesn't have to mean that it tastes bad. I love cooking, so would only cook healthy food if it tasted good too. Sometimes fat is healthy too. I love beer (and other bad habits), but gave it all up for most of the second half of my training program. You just have to make some sacrifices.
• Shoe choice
  Mizuno Waverider (neutral / cushioning) for training and the marathon, Mizuno Precision for racing/intervals/tempo. Considering buying some Mizuno Musha for racing at the moment. The Mizunos are all very light, very cheap and very comfortable.
• Other
  I always start my training plan a week early, so I can take a week off for holidays, injury, work etc. something always comes up. The last few times it's been holidays, but the break has served me well (though I always run on holidays too).

Sorry, I obviously like the sound of my own voice (keyboard?).

Krusty_Clown

mithril wrote: »

I was expecting a response closer to what RayCun provided.

All well made points mithril and to be honest my response was indeed a cop-out as the idea of even thinking about training at the moment is vomit inducing. The limp is mostly gone, but the aches are still there and for the next while, I want to rekindle the joy of running; I want to head into the hills, and run naked with the pie-balds. Too much?

If it were just about the running, then I would be gung ho, and jump into the next challenge as soon as I was able, but life gets in the way. So for the time being, I'll take a step back, concentrate on my family, my new job (starting next week) and some more enjoyable running. Within a couple of weeks I'm sure I'll be chomping at the bit again. But you'll have to pry that last beer from my cold dead hands.

BeepBeep67

Thanks - Detailed logical response as always - you could sell that on the interweb ya know

Regarding joining a club, the primary benefit for you would be finding a club with serveral 2:4X runners and doing your quality sessions with them could push your intensity up a notch - I always found quality sessions easier mentally with a group. Actually doesn't need to be club, could be an opportunity for DCM for example the 2:30, 2:45. 3:00 group training sessions.

BeepBeep67

BTW - the last 9 days of your taper is missing from your link.

Krusty_Clown

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

BTW - the last 9 days of your taper is missing from your link.

Fixed!

Sadly I lost my Garmin HRM, probably on the weekend of the Dublin Half Marathon. Tried to buy one in Berlin but to no avail. As inaccurate as it was, it would at least have given me some more guidance on how I ran the race in Berlin and what I had left in the tank. It's like watching a football match in a stadium. It frustrates me that I can't go back and watch the replay of the critical moments.

dermCu

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Mizuno Waverider (neutral / cushioning) for training and the marathon, Mizuno Precision for racing/intervals/tempo. Considering buying some Mizuno Musha for racing at the moment. The Mizunos are all very light, very cheap and very comfortable.

If the Musha seem just a little too flat you could have a look at the elixir 5. They are more or less the same weight but with more cushioning on the elixir - just my opinion when I tried them both out.

By the way well done on the small matter of your recent marathon, great stuff.

Krusty_Clown

Thanks dermCu. They sound a little like the over-pronator version of the neutral Precision. I tried on the Musha at the Berlin expo, and they felt like a really comfortable (very light) fit, but they were looking for €100, which seemed way over-priced for a shoe which doesn't have a particularly long life. I wouldn't mind having a pair for very intensive interval sessions, or tackling 'the mile' if I ever get around to it.

myflipflops

1. You are probably at the limit of what a packaged program like P&D can provide. Would you consider getting personalized coaching?.

I was going to post something like this. IF (massive if, I know the level of time and effort that's required) you wanted to go quicker, an experienced coach would be great for you. Someone like Dick Hooper in Raheny would suit you down to the ground.

You clearly have work ethic for marathons and I suspect there is a decent amount of raw ability there too that will allow you to go quicker. You posted in another thread (about goals??) that training with McMillan elite and running 2.30 would be amazing. Running in the 2.30's is a distinct possibilty for you.

pgmcpq

Sorry ... late arriving but this is an interesting topic. Couple of questions I'd like to throw out.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I've had to increase my mileage for every new PB,

Is increased mileage necessary ? Reading around has given me the (happy) impression that improvement can come with repeated training cycles. So, while there may be better alternatives in an ideal world, if you repeated the P&D plan with adjusted paces (5k, tempo, pmp) you could still progress. Or do you feel that after a number of training cycles the marginal benefit just tails off.

Would switching from P&D to another "equivalent" plan yield results. I just wonder if simply changing training up, changing the pattern of stresses would of itself lead to improvement ? To some degree this is what the 10k training program has done (although the main aim was very different).

Krusty_Clown

pgmcpq wrote: »

Is increased mileage necessary ? Reading around has given me the (happy) impression that improvement can come with repeated training cycles. So, while there may be better alternatives in an ideal world, if you repeated the P&D plan with adjusted paces (5k, tempo, pmp) you could still progress. Or do you feel that after a number of training cycles the marginal benefit just tails off.

Hi pgmcpq, I don't think that adding random mileage makes any difference, but adding mileage with a specific purpose does make a difference. In the case of this training phase, my mid-week runs were slightly longer. Long runs were longer, as were tempo runs etc. Specificity is important, and if you're going to run a long race, you'd better get used to running long training runs.
So for example:
Old training plan: 15 miles w/12 miles @ PMP
New training plan: 18 miles w/12 miles @PMP
The second one is going to be more specific to my race, right?
So why didn't I run the higher mileage the first time round? I'm still relatively new to running (but old and getting older!), so I've adjusted the mileage upwards where I reckoned I could handle it. I've also become more determined and more willing to make greater sacrifices (diet, social life, beer).

pgmcpq wrote: »

Would switching from P&D to another "equivalent" plan yield results. I just wonder if simply changing training up, changing the pattern of stresses would of itself lead to improvement ? To some degree this is what the 10k training program has done (although the main aim was very different).

My question would be - what is the justification for changing it? The program (in principle) works and just needs to be tweaked to increase specificity and pace. When the plan stops working, isn't that the right time to look at alternative approaches?

Others like Peckham have found success in other programs (Daniels), but that doesn't mean that the alternative program is better. It may be just more suitable for that individual.

Krusty_Clown

myflipflops wrote: »

I was going to post something like this. IF (massive if, I know the level of time and effort that's required) you wanted to go quicker, an experienced coach would be great for you. Someone like Dick Hooper in Raheny would suit you down to the ground.

You clearly have work ethic for marathons and I suspect there is a decent amount of raw ability there too that will allow you to go quicker. You posted in another thread (about goals??) that training with McMillan elite and running 2.30 would be amazing. Running in the 2.30's is a distinct possibilty for you.

Thanks for the vote of confidence myflipflops. I have little doubt I will ultimately turn to the idea of running a quicker marathon. Of all the race distances I've tried, the marathon is without a doubt my favourite and my forte, but the 2:30's are for theRoadrunners, Tunguskas, Heffsarmy's, Private Runners, T-runners, and Abhainns of this world (but I'll be happy to chase in their footsteps).

Sosa

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi Dom, firstly I don't see the achievement as that fantastic at all. No false modesty here, It's another 7 minutes taken off of my PB, just like anyone taking a similar amount of time off of their PB, and didn't really come at a significantly higher price, other than having to run extra miles (an extra 70 miles over the same period in my last training phase) and higher intensity training (faster). I did take a moment to relish my time after crossing the finish line, as a year ago I would never have dreamed of breaking 2:50 (or 3:00 for that matter), but when you go from one marathon to the next and chip away a few minutes each time, it's just a logical progression, rather than any amazing achievement. 'Amazing' is an adjective that should be reserved for those who are breaking new ground, like taking 20-30 mins off a PB, or recording a very fast first marathon. Seres pointed out that my report came across more like a 10k. The truth is that I now see a marathon in the same way that I used to see a 10k race a few years ago.

Very good post Krusty and the right way to be thinking about it,the minute you think that something you do is amazing,it becomes harder to improve further.
Before i got my sub 3 in Cork i thought that if i achieved it,it would be amazing...but as soon as i finished i knew i could have gone sub 2:55 that day and now i realise that i could go sub 2:50 in Dublin if i was able to do it ( and did the training beforehand,obviously ) and who knows in the future.
A friend from work who is going for 2:28 in Munich on Oct 10th told me that my shorter distance times suggest that with the right training i could go sub 2:45 :eek:....
Its all about the specifics....the right training and commitment will go a long way

Well done again Krusty.....great stuff

myflipflops

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

the 2:30's are for theRoadrunners, Tunguskas, Heffsarmy's, Private Runners, T-runners, and Abhainns of this world (but I'll be happy to chase in their footsteps).

2.35 is very, very achievable for you with the right training. I'm not downgrading the time either - I have massive respect for sub 3 marathoners.

I know a 2.30.xx guy who I would say has next to zero athletic ability. I consider the time he ran in Dublin to be one of the best running performances I've ever witnessed by an Irish person. It showed what could happen when the work was put in.

Krusty_Clown

Tonight: 10 mile recovery cycle that felt nice and comfortable, followed by a very slow 2 miles on the grass to see where I am. Not ready yet, is the answer. More cycling, and less running for the time being. On a positive note, both the achilles are feeling ok.

Summary: 10 miles on the bike and two miles on foot.

TheRoadRunner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Tonight: 10 mile recovery cycle that felt nice and comfortable, followed by a very slow 2 miles on the grass to see where I am. Not ready yet, is the answer. More cycling, and less running for the time being. On a positive note, both the achilles are feeling ok.

Summary: 10 miles on the bike and two miles on foot.

Holy crap when I read that first I thought you had done a 10 mile recovery run. Make sure you take it handy for the next few weeks. Your progress has been exponential to date and the only thing that will slow it down in the next 12 months is an injury. Get the achilles sorted, shift the niggles then start hatching a new plan. Easier said then done I know, I'm great at giving out sensible advice but don't always heed it myself.

Krusty_Clown

I'm a bit thick, but I'm not that thick!

Peckham

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I have little doubt I will ultimately turn to the idea of running a quicker marathon.

Please don't, it'll make me feel that I need to do the same! You've peaked now, get out whilst the going is good!

TakeaBowSon

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Tonight: 10 mile recovery cycle that felt nice and comfortable, followed by a very slow 2 miles on the grass to see where I am. Not ready yet, is the answer. More cycling, and less running for the time being. On a positive note, both the achilles are feeling ok.

Summary: 10 miles on the bike and two miles on foot.

Think I saw you hobbling around the park last night Krusty!

Well done on the Marathon by the way....excellent acheivement!

Krusty_Clown

TakeaBowSon wrote: »

Think I saw you hobbling around the park last night Krusty!

Well done on the Marathon by the way....excellent acheivement!

Yep, that would've been me! The cycle was a good idea, but the run was just a little too premature. At least I know where my owies are for the physio on Saturday!

Krusty_Clown

Peckham wrote: »

Please don't, it'll make me feel that I need to do the same! You've peaked now, get out whilst the going is good!

What's Rotterdam like in April?

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I have little doubt I will ultimately turn to the idea of running a quicker marathon.

Peckham wrote: »

Please don't, it'll make me feel that I need to do the same! You've peaked now, get out whilst the going is good!

Damn you Krusty, you've cursed us all!
/unsubscribe:D

pgmcpq

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi pgmcpq, I don't think that adding random mileage makes any difference, but adding mileage with a specific purpose does make a difference. In the case of this training phase, my mid-week runs were slightly longer. Long runs were longer, as were tempo runs etc. Specificity is important, and if you're going to run a long race, you'd better get used to running long training runs.
So for example:
Old training plan: 15 miles w/12 miles @ PMP
New training plan: 18 miles w/12 miles @PMP
The second one is going to be more specific to my race, right?
So why didn't I run the higher mileage the first time round? I'm still relatively new to running (but old and getting older!), so I've adjusted the mileage upwards where I reckoned I could handle it. I've also become more determined and more willing to make greater sacrifices (diet, social life, beer).

I see your point. Still I'm hoping there is an alternative to higher mileage - like you say there are only so many hours - and only so much the legs/joints will take.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My question would be - what is the justification for changing it? The program (in principle) works and just needs to be tweaked to increase specificity and pace. When the plan stops working, isn't that the right time to look at alternative approaches?

Others like Peckham have found success in other programs (Daniels), but that doesn't mean that the alternative program is better. It may be just more suitable for that individual.

My thinking runs along the lines of : different plans have different strengths - not that one plan is necessarily better than another. After a number of cycles on one plan, could switching tap into the strengths of a different plan ? Again as an alternative to higher mileage.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

. I have little doubt I will ultimately turn to the idea of running a quicker marathon.

Excellent .... for those of us who dream vicariously through this log !

Enjoy the down time and good luck with the new job.

Krusty_Clown

pgmcpq wrote: »

My thinking runs along the lines of : different plans have different strengths - not that one plan is necessarily better than another. After a number of cycles on one plan, could switching tap into the strengths of a different plan ? Again as an alternative to higher mileage.

I would've though that peaking at 63 miles per week is relatively low for a sub 2:50 marathon. For my next marathon I would hope to max at about 70mpw, and see how far that gets me. I don't think there's any substitute for doing long runs at marathon pace, or shorter runs at faster pace, and the more of them, the better prepared we'll be!