Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

+1 I really believe this, Dublin must have been worth a good few minutes last monday compared to say London this year..
Also a Q; do you think in Hindsight thouse first 7-8 miles were a bit fast? or were you happy enough at the time that the effort levels/HR were about right?

HR seemed to stay in the low 150s for the first 10 miles (a product of all of those easy miles in training), which in my mind is pretty spot on. I think we hit the 10 mile mark in 59 minutes, which was about a minute faster than planned, but if the race strategy is 'even-effort', or you are on the bread-line in terms of your race target, you have to take advantage of the more favourable parts of the course, and that includes those miles in the park (where we shaved off the guts of a minute). In terms of my overall splits, they were:
1st half: 1:18:12
2nd Half: 1:20:19
Positive split: 02:07

I reckon the slow-down because of the stitch may have cost me around 30-40 seconds, so if you take that out, it's not a terribly bad set of splits. Not as good as London, but I reckon myself and KU probably ran near the perfect race that day. If you bear in mind that 87% of the top 1,000 runners ran a positive split (averaging 6 minutes), then it provides a little more context. I think everyone suffered along that Crumlin stretch (particularly those runners in the top 1,000 who had little wind cover), but the impact probably did not manifest until the second half of the race.

Race positions provide a little more information too:
Start-line: 300 (guesstimate)
10km: 50
Half: 51
32km: 42
Finish: 40

In the second half of the race, I was passed by three runners (though I only saw two of them), which means I in turn passed 14 runners, so given the conditions, the effort over the first 10 miles didn't have a significantly negative impact. BTW, of the three runners who passed me:
36th place overall: 5 second positive split
37th place overall: 1 minute negative split
39th place overall: 41 second positive split

All ran excellent races, but certainly a suggestion there that there was merit to run a more evenly paced race. So to summarise, I don't believe there was any impact of the slightly faster section over the first 10 miles. In hindsight, perhaps we should have given up some effort in the windy sections on Crumlin road, but I was sheltering behind TRR so was strategically right to stick with him, rather than run the section on my own.

menoscemo

I agree in general about even effort, but there is no doubt that as 2 'standalone' races that the 2nd half of DCM is much easier than the first Half. This is even more true last monday as miles 13-20 were downwond as well as downhill.
Our pacing plan was to be bang on or a little down at halfway and run a slightly negative split.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that the official 10k marker was a little short; giving the impression that runner were well up at 10k when in fact they weren't.

Cleanman

Great race and report once again Krusty. The week long wait was worth it! I agree with a lot of the comments left above and I'm really interested in what such a great year of training will mean for your 10k times....

Krusty_Clown

T runner wrote: »

Frankfurt 2014 is on Oct 26th. From the 2012 Results, there were 20 people finishing between 2:34 and 2:36. I can see you staying very comfortably with those guys and girls till half way and then pushing on hunting for a 2:33.xx.
You could base yourself in a brewery village in rural Frankfurt.
Dublin will be there for 2015.

Lol - you've got it all sorted for me! I was going to say that Dublin is where I'd most like to produce the goods, but looking at one of those runner's videos, the course and weather looks very similar to Dublin. It does seem to be a damn competitive environment too. I wonder what the variability of the weather is like? Seems like they had awful conditions this year.

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

I agree in general about even effort, but there is no doubt that as 2 'standalone' races that the 2nd half of DCM is much easier than the first Half. This is even more true last monday as miles 13-20 were downwond as well as downhill.

Even if the second half is easier, most of us (:eek:) still have to run through the first more difficult section to get to the second easier section. In a world where we didn't expend any effort or experience tiredness, we'd run the second half faster every time, but the statistics show that that very few people run a negative split (just 13% in DCM 2013). It's pretty interesting to compare the 2013 numbers against the 2012 numbers. In 2012, 23% of the top 1k runners ran a negative split - that's an extra 100 runners. So why the big discrepancy between this year and last year? Because the conditions naturally fell that way.

If we take the top 1k runners as a sample and assume that for the most part, the participants are trying to run the best time they can (ignoring pacers and winners), then one can generally assume that they are all trying to run their best possible time, following fairly even splits. My guess is that the number of negative splits is way down because of the conditions, specifically the wind on Crumlin Road that impacted in the second half, rather than directly in the first. Or else everyone's strategy was collectively poorer this year (the 1,000th finisher was 3 minutes slower than last year).

Rolex_

menoscemo wrote: »

I agree in general about even effort, but there is no doubt that as 2 'standalone' races that the 2nd half of DCM is much easier than the first Half. This is even more true last monday as miles 13-20 were downwond as well as downhill.
Our pacing plan was to be bang on or a little down at halfway and run a slightly negative split.

I actually have a sneaking suspicion that the official 10k marker was a little short; giving the impression that runner were well up at 10k when in fact they weren't.

I'd say Dublin is a very fair course overall-not much difference between the Half's unless wind is a factor (which it definitely was last week). It did help on 13-18 but it sure added to the difficulty from 23-25.5...

I ran pretty much even splits with a HR of 153-156 throughout the whole race. Never felt under strain until Merrion Road where the wind and lack of runners to draft behind was a big factor. Dropped nearly a minute of banked time over those 3 miles without any fluctuation in HR.
Not quite the A target of 2:55 (missed it by just over a minute) I had set myself but my first Sub 3 and a big PB so delighted. Incidentally only the 2nd time I have managed to run close to identical HM splits in my 6 marathons- and they were easily the most comfortable 2 I have done-more than a coincidence I expect.

I have read most of the arguments for and against starting slowly- I think ultimately you have to pick a REALISTIC A-target and back yourself by running the first half at that pace assuming there is no difference in 1st and 2nd half (wind direction , gradient etc) of the course.

If the A-Target is achieved with even or negative split it was probably a conservative one. Achieving a B-target with a 2 minute positive split probably equates to an even effort marathon and means your pacing was on the money. Pfitzinger expresses this view and I am inclined to agree from my (albeit limited) experience.

What say you, Krusty?

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Even if the second half is easier, most of us (:eek:) still have to run through the first more difficult section to get to the second easier section. In a world where we didn't expend any effort or experience tiredness, we'd run the second half faster every time, but the statistics show that that very few people run a negative split (just 13% in DCM 2013). It's pretty interesting to compare the 2013 numbers against the 2012 numbers. In 2012, 23% of the top 1k runners ran a negative split - that's an extra 100 runners. So why the big discrepancy between this year and last year? Because the course and conditions naturally fell that way.

If we take the top 1k runners as a sample and assume that for the most part, the participants are trying to run the best time they can (ignoring pacers and winners), then one can generally assume that they are all trying to run their best possible time, following fairly even splits. My guess is that the number of negative splits is way down because of the conditions, specifically the wind on Crumlin Road that impacted in the second half, rather than directly in the first. Or else everyone's strategy was collectively poorer this year (the 1,000th finisher was 3 minutes slower than last year).

Interesting stats; especially the last bit.
Should give you confidence that you have already a much faster time in you....(though a little scary in terms of what CL can do ).

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Enjoyed the report, i think the step back in focus to shorter races will help you long term physically let alone mentally. It must be so tough to string two marathon programmes in the one year especially with some of the really tough sessions you have completed during the training.
Still its another marathon pb and no doubt another 2 or 3 minutes to shave off in the future. You would have never thought when you took up running that you would have finished 40th in DCM in that sort of time, progression and some perspective!!

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

though a little scary in terms of what CL can do

Indeed. It took me 1.5 years to go from 3:25 to 2:55, and I think CL has progressed more rapidly. If only she'd started two years earlier, she'd have a new car in her driveway right now.

menoscemo

^^^^^
alot more elevation in Berlin than Chicago.
Who said Berlin was flat?

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

^^^^^
alot more elevation in Berlin than Chicago.
Who said Berlin was flat?

Who said Garmin's were reliable? Not I !

cianc

I *could* (read: will later on) go back through your log, but any chance of a quick summary of what you did to go from 2:55 -> 2:48 in 2010?

ultraman1

menoscemo wrote: »

^^^^^
alot more elevation in Berlin than Chicago.
Who said Berlin was flat?

its not flat,,its long...

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Who said Garmin's were reliable? Not I !

I know :P the Berlin elevation chart is funny too, lots of flat and then some dramatic climbs!!
Anyway; back on topic...

nerraw1111

That's some progress. It's great to click on the first page of your log every now and again to measure the progress.

Read article today about running based on perceived effort. Presumably that's what the top runners did this year in DCM, giving the stats.

Slightly related, I know one runner who went from 2.58 last year in DCM to 2.41 this year.

Krusty_Clown

cianc wrote: »

I *could* (read: will later on) go back through your log, but any chance of a quick summary of what you did to go from 2:55 -> 2:48 in 2010?

Jaysus. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, not to mind 2010! (That's why I keep a log. ). I was still following P&D plans at that stage (I'm guessing that I probably maxed out at around 70mpw). So the improvement would have come from higher mileage and consistent hard training.

T runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Lol - you've got it all sorted for me! I was going to say that Dublin is where I'd most like to produce the goods, but looking at one of those runner's videos, the course and weather looks very similar to Dublin. It does seem to be a damn competitive environment too. I wonder what the variability of the weather is like? Seems like they had awful conditions this year.

They had stormy conditions this year but same amount of runners under 2:35 (106) compared to a benign Berlin, so plenty of shelter from the winds and probably still running a couple of minutes faster than Dublin 2013. Course Record is 2:03:42, set in 2011 on a wet day.

If youre motivation is purely time for the next one, then a big group running at your target pace on a flat course is hugely advantageous. That said youre improving 5 mins a year, so youll get there one way or the other in 2014!

Oregano_State

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Jaysus. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, not to mind 2010! (That's why I keep a log. ). I was still following P&D plans at that stage (I'm guessing that I probably maxed out at around 70mpw). So the improvement would have come from higher mileage and consistent hard training.

That's the secret to success right there.

Slogger Jogger

Great read KC and fantastic to see your further progression and the analysis thereof. Catch up at some stage for a slow run in the hills.

Itziger

belcarra wrote: »

+1 to all the other comments, fair play to you on your consistency and persistence!

Just an idea but I can't rate Valencia highly enough. 3 weeks after Dublin and in 15-18 degree temps with as flat a course as Chicago (if not flatter!).
You'd run a great time there and probably place pretty highly too! Plus the final 2km are pretty special.
Don't just take my word for it, ask Itziger!

I've just read the report - usual high standard - and was on my way to posting a cheeky "10 days to Valencia", when I saw this. He's right though. I could even give ya the name of a pub or two, couldn't I Belcarra?

Congratulations again. Great running.

statss

You are consistently the standard bearer for both training hard & writing superbly detailed reports, bravo sir. Your marathon history screengrab is stunning.

Marthastew

Congrats from all the Stews on a superb race G, your dedication and hard work are inspirational and National Bronze in the auld fella category is a wonderful achievement.
Your reports (and your log) are always a joy to read and they give a great insight into just how tough things are up the business end of the field.

although I'm still convinced your resident black cat had a part to play in your result, it's no coincidence that Mrs Klown did so well also. Don't be surprised if that cat goes walkabout;)

Krusty_Clown

Marthastew wrote: »

although I'm still convinced your resident black cat had a part to play in your result, it's no coincidence that Mrs Klown did so well also. Don't be surprised if that cat goes walkabout;)

Actually, we sacrificed the cat on Sunday evening, during backwards mass. How else do you think we manage to keep hitting our goals? Got my national medal in the post when I got home yesterday, which was a nice surprise. Another two or three medals and I'll have caught up with my daughter's tally. Bloody over-achievers..

cianc

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Jaysus. I can't remember what I had for breakfast, not to mind 2010! (That's why I keep a log. ). I was still following P&D plans at that stage (I'm guessing that I probably maxed out at around 70mpw). So the improvement would have come from higher mileage and consistent hard training.

Several hundred posts later: some 10k-ish training and hills, followed by P&D 55-70pmw. Fun read, thanks

AuldManKing

cianc wrote: »

Several hundred posts later: some 10k-ish training and hills, followed by P&D 55-70pmw. Fun read, thanks

don't forget the wall climbing - NEVER forget the wall climbing..............

Krusty_Clown

AuldManKing wrote: »

don't forget the wall climbing - NEVER forget the wall climbing..............

Nah, that craic really only started in 2013. That's what got me from 2:46 to 2:38.
Speaking of which, I must organize a rock climbing intro session for any Boards runners who want to give it a lash....

ultrapercy

I think you ran a fantastic race. A pb no matter by how small a margin is always a good thing and especially so in testing conditions. That was my 15th DCM last Monday week and it was the toughest day of the all, apart from maybe my first in 96 which I only have scant memory of now. I missed 2000 04 and 09 and they were tough days I believe. My pb hopes like many others ran aground in last 10k into the wind where as you held on and hit yours. I think its a run you will get happier about as time goes on. Well done on what is amazing progress. Good luck with the shorter stuff, You have the potential to run sub 16 5k and sub 33 10k at least and that can be just as challenging and fun as the marathon.

TRR

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think you ran a fantastic race. A pb no matter by how small a margin is always a good thing and especially so in testing conditions. That was my 15th DCM last Monday week and it was the toughest day of the all, apart from maybe my first in 96 which I only have scant memory of now. I missed 2000 04 and 09 and they were tough days I believe. My pb hopes like many others ran aground in last 10k into the wind where as you held on and hit yours. I think its a run you will get happier about as time goes on. Well done on what is amazing progress. Good luck with the shorter stuff, You have the potential to run sub 16 5k and sub 33 10k at least and that can be just as challenging and fun as the marathon.

what he said!

Pronator

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Dublin? Fnck Dublin! Those were the words I imparted, as we sat supping pints in the Coal Hole,

This is not correct. The words Dublin? Fnck Dublin! was spoken about 100 meters after the finish line in London when I asked the question "What about Dublin this year";)

Great read, great result, well done.

Krusty_Clown

Thanks guys. Praise from caesar(s)!

Pronator wrote:

This is not correct. The words Dublin? Fnck Dublin! was spoken about 100 meters after the finish line in London when I asked the question "What about Dublin this year"

That may be true Pronator, but was I not supping on a beer 100m from the finish line? Admittedly, it wasn't the correct choice of PB beer on a hot sweaty day. By the way this was the PB beer I was supping on after Dublin. That can travelled all the way from Minnesota, to join me in my post race celebrations. Still haven't found the right post-marathon PB beer, but it'll happen...

Best post race conversation:
Tunguska: I can't believe you're drinking a beer right after crossing the finish line.
Krusty: Ahh c'mon... I haven't had a beer in three weeks!
Tunguska: I haven't had a beer in 10 years.