Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

pgmcpq

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Thanks guys. Praise from caesar(s)!


That may be true Pronator, but was I not supping on a beer 100m from the finish line? Admittedly, it wasn't the correct choice of PB beer on a hot sweaty day. By the way this was the PB beer I was supping on after Dublin. That can travelled all the way from Minnesota, to join me in my post race celebrations. Still haven't found the right post-marathon PB beer, but it'll happen...

Best post race conversation:
Tunguska: I can't believe you're drinking a beer right after crossing the finish line.
Krusty: Ahh c'mon... I haven't had a beer in three weeks!
Tunguska: I haven't had a beer in 10 years.

Wait ... there's a pb beer :eek: ? Why have I been wasting my time with P&D ?

... and and great report - congrats on the PB.

Krusty_Clown

pgmcpq wrote: »

Wait ... there's a pb beer :eek: ?

You know when you don't think you can take any more? When your lungs feel like they are clutched by a tight icy grip? When the pins and needles along your arms tell you that your race is nearly over? When the ball in your stomach is simmering and churning, like lava on the point of eruption? When you run with your eyes closed, so no-one can see your pain? When you have to clench your butt-cheeks together because you don't know what will happen if you stop clenching? When you realize that you want to stop, but still have 10 miles to go?

Then you think about the PB beer, gathering droplets of condensation in your race bag.

pgmcpq

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You know when you don't think you can take any more? When your lungs feel like they are clutched by a tight icy grip? When the pins and needles along your arms tell you that your race is nearly over? When the ball in your stomach is simmering and churning, like lava on the point of eruption? When you run with your eyes closed, so no-one can see your pain? When you have to clench your butt-cheeks together because you don't know what will happen if you stop clenching? When you realize that you want to stop, but still have 10 miles to go?

Then you think about the PB beer, gathering droplets of condensation in your race bag.

Oh *slightly disappointed* ... eh .. great but to me "pb beer" is the "drink lots of this and get a pb" ... now that's a pb beer.

KielyUnusual

I remember that PB beer from London. It was rank. Very nearly ruined my moment of glory:p. I went for the solid choice of Buckfast for my pacing celebration drink. That kick of caffeine is the very thing you need straight after a marathon. I think it will be my PB tonic wine of choice going forward.

Congratulations again on DCM. You managed to eek out a PB when you like everyone else seemed to really struggle over the last 10 miles. I was thinking of all you fast boys and girls running up the Crumlin Road and I certainly wouldn't have fancied racing in to that. It was bound to take a lot out of you going in to the second half of the race.

Like many others, I'm looking forward to seeing how you'll approach the shorter stuff. I had been running marathons since the get go and I was amazed at the difference in doing sessions when the mileage is lower. You can really push it out. Now the 60s 400m will be a sinch for you next summer.

KielyUnusual

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You know when you don't think you can take any more? When your lungs feel like they are clutched by a tight icy grip? When the pins and needles along your arms tell you that your race is nearly over? When the ball in your stomach is simmering and churning, like lava on the point of eruption? When you run with your eyes closed, so no-one can see your pain? When you have to clench your butt-cheeks together because you don't know what will happen if you stop clenching? When you realize that you want to stop, but still have 10 miles to go?

Then you think about the PB beer, gathering droplets of condensation in your race bag.

High mileage this, rock climbing that.....pffffftttt!

A 3 week fast, place a bottle of beer at the finish line and your intense craving for high quality beer does the rest.

The secret is finally out.

aero2k

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

How about yourself? Things looking up yet?

I'm afraid things have gone from bad to worse. I've tried Old Speckled Hen, Hobgoblin, everything by O'Haras and O'Sheas, and a few from the Dungarvan Brewing Co, but they all give me a headache. It's back to the cheap Brasserie stuff from Aldi..I'm just not fit to drink beer in this company.

aero2k

I've just had a quick scan of the ~6600 posts and realised that people occasionally mention running here, so I had better do likewise.

On that topic, its hard to give a straight answer. Every time I think it's hopeless, I make some progress, but every time I think I'm on a real improvement trajectory I take a few backward steps.

I scoffed at your mere 3rd auld lads prize as the same weekend I was first auld lad in a Parkrun - in a PW time of 18:55. Things can only get better, right?:)

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Best post race conversation:
Tunguska: I can't believe you're drinking a beer right after crossing the finish line.
Krusty: Ahh c'mon... I haven't had a beer in three weeks!
Tunguska: I haven't had a beer in 10 years.

That was only the second strangest thing that I saw that day, top spot has to go to claralara: For reasons that are beyond me, a block of cheese came spilling from her backpack as she attempted to zip it up.
So there was KC with his post-race beer and claralara with her post race chedder......

Krusty_Clown

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I remember that PB beer from London. It was rank. Very nearly ruined my moment of glory:p. I went for the solid choice of Buckfast for my pacing celebration drink. That kick of caffeine is the very thing you need straight after a marathon. I think it will be my PB tonic wine of choice going forward.

According to 'experts', Westvleteren 12 is the best beer in the world. I don't think those same experts will have just completed a marathon in warm sunny conditions though. Bucky, the drink of champions! Just reading through Bolt's biography at the moment and apparently he went through 24 bottles of bucky while consuming 1,000 chicken nuggets in Beijing, over a 10 day period! Is there choice in tonic wines?!

Aero2k wrote:

I've tried Old Speckled Hen, Hobgoblin, everything by O'Haras and O'Sheas, and a few from the Dungarvan Brewing Co, but they all give me a headache

That's not a headache. That's just your brain's way of telling you that you're having fun!

Tunguska wrote:

So there was KC with his post-race beer and claralara with her post race chedder......

Your post race reward was a cycle home. I think we win!

Krusty_Clown

Week in review:
Monday: 6.5 miles easy
I took a week off after Dublin marathon (1 part wisdom, 1 part cold, 1 part tiredness and one part hangover), which is the longest non-injury/illness related break I have had for five years. Apart from one short stint rock-climbing (which was an absolute failure), I did no exercise at all. Headed to Doolin for a weekend of surfing, and never even got into the sea. So today's run was all about recovery, from a weekend of boozing, a cold and the symptoms of a chest infection. Wore the HR monitor, and I was glad I did, as it was showing around 146 bpm, which is pretty high for me at easy pace (7:23/mile). Still, while the energy levels were low, the legs felt like they were floating above the ground.
Summary: 6.5 miles in 48 mins, @7:23/mile

Tuesday: 7 Miles easy
Again with the HR monitor (this time a more reasonable 134 bpm @7:03/mile). Probably went a little long and hard for this run as the quads tightened up a little afterwards. Followed up with an hour of bouldering.
Summary: 7.23 miles in 51 mins, @7:03/mile

Wednesday: 10k recovery run
Quads still a little tight, so eased back on the pace. HR close to normal (129 bpm, @7:30/mile). Should have stuck to the grass instead of the road, but after that marathon program, I find it hard not to do the runs I enjoy, rather than the runs that are good for me.
Summary: 10k in 46 mins, @7:30

Thursday: 6.4 mile Recovery with strides
Finally a bit id discipline, as I hit the grass for an easy recovery run. Threw in some strides at the end, just to see what kind of shape the legs were in. Still tightness in the quads, but otherwise ok.
Summary: 6.42 miles in 49 minutes

Friday: Easy 6 miles
Legs felt fine, but thinking another easy week is on the cards, before I start thinking about doing any hard stuff. No hard running until the niggles are gone. Followed up with a couple of hours of lead-rope climbing. I've definitely dis-improved a little in the last few weeks, but enjoying the climbs just as much, nonetheless.
Summary: 6.37 miles in 47 mins, @7:22/mile

Saturday: Easy 9 miles
Met up with club buddy who had a last minute urge to hit the trails instead of the road, so we headed off to Djouce for an easy run around the trails. Followed a path that took us down to Powerscourt waterfall (didn't realize there was an easy route from Djouce car-park and should have paid more attention, as I wouldn't have a clue how to find the path again!). Nice easy run that was gentle enough on the body, while shooting the breeze about marathons, training plans and goals.
Summary: 9 miles in 70 mins, @7:42/mile

Sunday: 15 miles easy
This is where things go a little pear-shaped. I had stupidly suggested a medium long easy run on Sunday morning (12 miles), despite the fact that I knew I was heading out for late night beers. I kind of skimped on breakfast the following morning too, and made matters worse by suggesting a detour, and then taking the wrong route home, which meant we went over Killiney Hill three times. By the time we were heading home, I was running on absolute fumes, quads were shredded by the downhills, and I was pretty fooked - all at a pretty steady pace. 24 hilly miles in two days - not good post-marathon training.
Summary: 15 miles in 1:47, @7:08/mile, HR=135

Dory Dory

Hi Krusty!! Just now getting caught up with your log. So, so nice to have met your smokey-salty self in McGrattans post marathon....and congratulations on your pb and award - all very well deserved. You're always such a source of inspiration for all of us here - thank you for sharing so much of your life journey with us through your writing. Your words are eloquent and your story is interesting - you teach and entertain. Again, thank you for being the awesome Clown you are.

Krusty_Clown

Monday: 5 miles recovery
Still not quite ready to do anything but run easy, so just some handy grass-based recovery miles. 5 miles @7:38/mile, followed up by a couple of hours of rock climbing.

Tuesday: 7 miles easy
Lunch-time loop around Sandyford, including a stop-off at ALDI, for the usual carbs and snacks. 7.61 miles @7:07/mile

Wednesday: 11 miles easy/steady
Couldn't get out for a run at lunch-time, so met up with club-Neil instead, this time determined to avoid accidentally adding in extra miles (as I've done the last few outings with Neil). This run was strangely the opposite of Dublin marathon, where we had a tail-wind behind us heading North, and a tail-wind behind us as soon as we turned around and headed back South. Always good to check the pace after the run and see some steady miles, at what feels like a very easy pace. 11 miles @6:50/mile, HR=129

Thursday: 7 miles in spikes
With my XC season rapidly approaching, it was time to get used to the spikes again. Started out with three easy miles, before hitting some strides/fartleks of around 200-400m, that saw the pace drop down to 6:34, 6:23, 6:20 for the next three miles, before a final recovery mile. Average: 7 miles @7:00.

Friday: 7 miles easy
Had planned an nice easy 8-9 mile run, but after two nights of poor sleep and a blossoming return of the cold, I was shagged. As soon as I started running I realized just how wrecked I was and decided to cut the run short. Typically, I found myself at the trail up to Barnacullia when I planned to turn around, but I couldn't not run to the top, so trudged through a couple of feet of fallen leaves, before heading back to work. 7 miles @7:35

Saturday: 5 miles easy
Was stuck for time, so ran the miles a little quicker than I ordinarily would, the day before a race, with a couple of 6:3x miles that won't do me any favours. Still, happy enough that 6:50/mile feels nice and easy at the moment.

Krusty_Clown

Had promised myself that if I got through DCM relatively unscathed, I'd head down to Stook for the 10 mile race. I'd heard great things about the race last year, and it was being run by a bunch of decent people (and Blockic!), so why not have a bit of craic?

It's been much debated over the last few weeks on whether you should really participate in races 'for the craic'. The old-school philosophy is that you should race few and far between and give every race 100%, whereas so far this year I've run 27 races, so have definitely pinned my 'race-whore' colours to the mast. I certainly understand the philosophy of giving 100% in every race, and can see how that would lead to greater progress (you can get very used to giving 90% in races), but at the end of the day, I'm after running my second decent marathon of the year, have packed in thousands of miles of training, really enjoy the race environment and it'll give me an extra bit of training stimulus, which I don't otherwise have the heart to do in training.

So I headed down to Stook, parked up in the corn-field and met BB for a couple of easy warm-up miles. I had my sights set on the M40 course record (58:07), as I figured that I was in 57:00 kind of shape, so running under 58 minutes should be handy enough. At the same time, I didn't want to kill myself, as the insomnia and cold had continued. When I heard that Gary Crossan was going to run I was a little relieved, as I wouldn't have to worry about the M40 title, but he couldn't make it, so the pressure was back on!

Lined-up at the start and it was great to meet so many boards runners. Strange to see an 'ould farmer at the side of the road cradling a shotgun with a cigarette drooping out of the side of his mouth. I wasn't sure if he was the race starter or was there to pick off stragglers, either way, as soon as the gun went, I got a move on, just in case.

Miles 1 -3: I quickly dropped in behind the leading group of five runners and settled in for a straight stretch of road that included some head-wind. After a few minutes I glanced at the watch and saw that I was running at 5:30/mile pace. I felt pretty comfortable, but knew that I couldn't sustain that pace for an hour, particularly with a great big hill on the course at mile 6. I stuck with the group until we hit the first mile marker (5:30), before the route took a sharp left turn. The lads having done a decent job of shielding me from the wind, I slowly backed off the pace as we hit a downhill. Actually, I didn't really drop of the pace, but rather the other runners accelerated on the downhill and left me behind. Shortly afterwards I was picked up by two runners, one of whom introduced himself as HappyGoose (from these parts) and the second was Tommy McElwain (he of current M40 course record fame). Though we kept the pace steady, we hit some hills and I was surprised to see the mile tick off at 6:07, which was well off any kind of target pace, however once we created the hill we had another steady mile 5:29, that kept the average pace on the right side of things.

Miles 4-6: We were chatting easily but the conversation kept turning to the hill at mile 7. When did it start? How bad was it? Lots of talk of dropping back to an easy 6 minute mile to recoup before the hill, but there were no signs of anyone slowing! We gradually reeled in the two optimistic runners who had been at the tail-end of the leading pack so we were now occupying positions 4th-6th. Miles passed in: 5:46, 5:50 before we hit the start of the climb: 6:10.

Miles 7-8: The hill wasn't as bad as I had expected. It reminded me of a similar hill that I run pretty regularly (Puck's Castle Road), however, as soon as we hit the hill, there was no energy in my legs at all. I don't know if it was too soon after DCM, the head-cold, or the lack of sleep over the preceding 3/4 days, but I was just completely devoid of energy. HappyGoose had taken a lead, while Tommy had dropped off the pace a little, so I clung onto HG and tried to wake up the legs by spraying them with cold water from a bottle I had picked up. Our pace really dropped on the climb and I was pretty shocked to see the mile tick off in 6:58. I should have been powering up this hill at closer to 6:30/mile. As we approached the top, I recalled that the first runner to the top of the hill who did not win a main prize would be crowned the King Of Stook. Always being one for lofty titles, I pushed on past HappyGoose to take my rightful title, only to discover that when I rounded the corner, we were not at the top of the hill. There was more climb to come. Gah! Again I'd pushed too early. I thought all was lost, but as we continued the climb I gradually recovered. Eventually I saw a large number of balloons and some kids jumping up and down and again figured this must be the top of the hill, so again I picked up the pace. HappyGoose, under the impression that I was pushing for home bid me good tidings and wished me well in the rest of my race. Well, that didn't last!

Miles 9-10: I crested the hill and soon afterwards, crossed the chip mat that signified the start of the 'flying mile'. What a cracking idea; a chip-timed measured down-hill mile to see how fast you could go. Not very fast was the answer. I recovered from the uphill climb very quickly (HR dropped back to 149), but realized I had absolutely no speed or turnover in the legs. HappyGoose pulled up alongside and enquired if I was ok, I was running that slow. We had a quick chat and he pushed on, leaving me for dust. Looking at the official splits after the race, though I finished in 5th place overall, I could only manage the 16th fastest downhill mile. HappyGoose was almost 20 seconds faster, as was Tommy behind me, so I gave up 20 seconds to the two runners on this down-hill mile. I hit the second chip-mat in a very unimpressive 5:19, before continuing downhill towards the finish line.

I was glad when the road flattened out, as it would reduce my disadvantage. I could hear Tommy breathing down my neck, but on the flatter section of road, I opened up the gap again and got a bit of breathing space. One nasty ill-timed hill and we were arriving back into the town of Dungarvan. A glance at the watch told me I was waaayyy off breaking any 'old fella' course records today, but when I saw the finishing clock I realized that I could still sneak in under 59 minutes, if I hit an all-out sprint. I crossed the finish line at 4:49/mile pace, just as the clock ticked 59:00 and stopped my watch on 59:00:02 (58:58 chip time, 58:59 gun time), in 5th place (10 seconds behind HappyGoose and 10 seconds ahead of Tommy).

While balancing out my calorie deficit in cake and tea in the hall afterwards, it was good to catch up with all of the Boards runners and chat about past and future plans. I really enjoyed what was a top notch racing experience, and will be back next year and the year after. I also learned a good bit from the experience as well. Over the year I have become completely one-dimensional in terms of speed and now understand that I don't really have any other gears at the moment. That worked out well for me for the two marathons I ran, but I realize that I have little to offer in terms of other distances. The runner who finished in third place in Stook (a whole two minutes ahead of me and 30 seconds faster than my 10 mile PB), finished Dublin marathon 20 seconds behind me and was well satisfied with his time. It's not that I punch above my weight in marathons, but rather that I punch well-below my weight in all other distances. But understanding my weakness is the first step in trying to address it. So the race was a far more valuable experience than the M40 title and the wonderful warm brack.

Summary: 10 miles in 58:58, @ HR=160

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The runner who finished in third place in Stook (a whole two minutes ahead of me and 30 seconds faster than my 10 mile PB), finished Dublin marathon 20 seconds behind me and was well satisfied with his time. It's not that I punch above my weight in marathons, but rather that I punch well-below my weight in all other distances. But understanding my weakness is the first step in trying to address it. So the race was a far more valuable experience than the M40 title and the wonderful warm brack.

Summary: 10 miles in 58:58, @ HR=160

To be fair he blew up a bit in the marathon (77/81 split) so Im not sure that his result is the best gauge of your short game. I think though the 5 - 15k plan is a good idea, I did it last year and you get faster very quickly, and definitely not as draining as the marathon plan.

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

To be fair he blew up a bit in the marathon (77/81 split) so Im not sure that his result is the best gauge of your short game. I think though the 5 - 15k plan is a good idea, I did it last year and you get faster very quickly, and definitely not as draining as the marathon plan.

Yeah, it was more the fact that I just couldn't physically get my legs to turn over any quicker during that downhill mile that drew me to that conclusion. Earlier in the year, I ran 4:54 on the track and found it relatively comfortable (shortly beforehand, I had been following the JD 5k-15k plan, but had to abandon it mid-plan to switch over to London marathon training). Glad to be taking the opportunity this time to give it a proper lash, but may wait until after xmas and just keep running easy for another 5-6 weeks.

Krusty_Clown

Monday 18th: 5.2 mile recovery run @7:50/mile
Tuesday 19th: 8 miles easy @7:12/mile
Wednesday 20th: 6.5 miles easy @6:55/mile
Thursday 21st: 10 miles easy @7:01/mile
Friday 22nd: 5 miles easy @7:21/mile
Saturday 23rd: BHAA 6k XC + 11.5 miles easy
Sunday 24th: Medium long easy run: 13.2 miles @7:23/mile
Monday 25th: 7 miles easy/recovery @7:40/mile

Tuesday 26th: sick.
Wednesday 27th: sick.

Krusty_Clown

Thursday: sick.
Friday: sick.

...but a glimmer of hope...
It's really bad timing to pick up a chest infection just a couple of days before the county senior XC - one of the races I hoped to be in a position to commit 100% to, but what can you do? I'm also travelling to the US for work on Monday, so it was critical to recover. I decided that if there was no improvement by Friday, I'd have to forgo the XC and consider cancelling the work trip (which would be a bigger deal in the grand scheme of things). Wednesday I was still very ill, Thursday was worse, but thankfully this morning things are looking a little brighter. If I'm in a position to get out for a few easy miles tomorrow, I'll still run the XC, but I definitely won't be at 100%.

BHAA 6k XC: 27th place
Last Saturday I joined a club-mate for my second ever BHAA race (the first having been a road 10k), with a view to getting some XC experience in before the seniors this weekend. I had no goals other than to get a bit of practise in, but I was more curious about participating in a BHAA race, and seeing how my club-mate got on. He's been running some serious mileage over recent months and is really stepping up his game, so I think I was as curious as he was, to see how much the training has been paying off.

For my part, I had a pretty awful race. Familiarity breeds complacency, and finally the cost of running too many races has become apparent. The reality (for me) is that if you run too many races then you just can't invest the same level of commitment as you would, if you focussed on specific target races during the year. Sure, it's great to nab a top 5 spot in a race with a small field, the odd M40 prize and even sometimes the odd soft podium, as they all make you (somewhat delusionally) feel a little bit better about yourself, but I want to be a decent club runner, not a decent M40. So this race was a rude but somewhat welcome awakening. Arriving out at Morton Stadium, I was surprised to note that I didn't recognize too many faces. The BHAA (or at least this race in particular) seems to attract a slightly different audience to the typical road-race scene. A broad mix of runners, but certainly all competitive. I did a couple of laps of the circuit as a warm-up, peeled off the layers and got ready to go. The circuit was that used for the Euro XC a couple of years back, and it was a largely flat fun loop, with a few twists and interesting features.

Disaster from the start. I thought there were around 300 runners, and as soon as the gun went, I seem to have been passed by most of them. Two ladies had jumped in front of me, and short of pushing them out of the way I had no choice but to wait until I got a chance to go around them. By the time I got an opportunity to break past, I was right in the bottom 1/4 of the field. I had decided to run without looking at the watch for the experience (and the watch is of little practical benefit in an XC race), but had I looked, it would have shown a very lacklustre first mile @5:56, as I struggled to get past large groups of runners.

I managed to get a bit of space by the second lap (mile 2: 5:42), but it's a short 3.8 mile race, so I should have been capable of running much closer to 5k pace. By the third lap, the legs were feeling a little tired, and now I was running into runners who were a lap behind, which hindered progress (mile 3: 5:40). I hit the final lap and started to catch some of the runners I'd usually finish slightly ahead of in a road race. I passed a group half way through the lap and could hear them keeping me close. With half a lap to go, I picked up the pace to wind it up for the finish line. I passed one or two runners, but knew they weren't going to give up easy on this XC course, so kept it flat out for the final two bends, running the final section of the course at 4:40/mile (final 0.8 miles @5:27/mile). So I finished in an unimpressive but entirely deserved 27th place. On a positive note, I wore my HRM, and at least I know my ticker is still good for at least 174 bpm.

While I picked up a spot-prize of a box of short-bread for my lack-lustre performance, my training buddy picked up a bronze, finishing in third-place in a field that was very competitive at the top of the field. A real breakthrough performance for him, and a demonstration of what you can achieve if you take running seriously, rather than looking for instant gratification. Plenty to think about, as I lay out my roadmap for next year.

After being dropped off back at home, I dropped my bags off and headed straight over to the park to tick off another few miles, possibly more to vent some frustration rather than of serving any practical purpose. By the end of the 6 mile run, the miles were ticking off in 6:40s and 6:30s; a further illustration of just how little I had committed to the race.

So where am I now?
Only one race to go in the calendar (senior XC) and I'll do the best that my recovery will allow, but I'm not too optimistic. The following week will be travel and work, and unless I'm fortunate enough to hit the hotel treadmill for a few miles, it's unlikely that I'll get to run too much. After that the xmas festivities kick in, so again I'll run when I can. After a good solid year, it looks like it's closing out with a bit of a whimper, but that's ok. I had decided to start my 5k-15k training in the new year anyway, as I'm still a little too raw after the marathons to consider a tough regime. I'll get healthy again, get back to 7 day/70 mpw, and get ready to start the new year fresh and ready for the new challenge.

RayCun

You could do the national novice race on December 15th? If you don't get to run the county senior as well as you'd like, and you still want to give XC a good crack. There'll be a Wicklow Masters race coming up too, don't know when though

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

You could do the national novice race on December 15th? If you don't get to run the county senior as well as you'd like, and you still want to give XC a good crack. There'll be a Wicklow Masters race coming up too, don't know when though

So the solution to running too many races is to run more races?
Yeah, I'll definitely give the masters a crack in the New Year.

ecoli

Given the stark contrast between the laziness in my training this year and the absolutely trojan work put in here feeling a bit out off place offering my 2c, however.....

Regarding the rude awakening I think in some senses its good to get a change of enviroment and show you a new level to strive for. Having said that you were only recovering from a chest infection and haven't been training specifically for XC so in some senses you are being a bit harsh on yourself.

Looking at your log over the past 11 months I have noticed a subtle change in tone. Over the past 18 months everything has been done wit a purpose - Marathon training, recover, 5k-15k plan to develop ability before going back into marathon training. As such I think mentally it has taken its toll. You seem to have slightly lost an element of the enjoyment.

I think it would be no harm in breaking the cycle you have gotten yourself into and aim for a target over the next few months that is outside your comfort zone. I know you could argue that the 5k-15k plan is exactly that but my thoughts would be to focus on something without having the view of complementing your next marathon build up. That is not to say that it won't help by the time the next one comes around but I think that a change of approach and target ultimately would have more gains from a psychological aspect more so than physical. I think going into your next marathon block mentally fresh and taking a slightly different approach than what has become the norm in the form of Daniels would pay major dividends.

I know Daniels has worked well for you but I think you have adapted to the training over the last 18 months very well to the point where you are not getting right stimulus to push you on to the next level. I think a break for a small bit and a different stimulus could yield better benefits

This could be in the form of a different training plan or better yet possibly if you could working with other club members under a club coach which would take the mental stress of the planning off you for a few months to provide the break.

Plenty of time and potential to bring them times down even further .

Krusty_Clown

ecoli wrote: »

Having said that you were only recovering from a chest infection and haven't been training specifically for XC so in some senses you are being a bit harsh on yourself.

Ehm, yeah, but the race was before I got the chest infection.

As for the rest of your post, those are very much the conclusions I've come to myself. I think having almost completed three back to back JD marathon plans I've become accustomed to the training load, so to repeat the process further would not be as beneficial. I'm not sure what I'll do when I get to marathon time, but I'll work that out when I get there. But I'm really looking forward to the 5k-15k plan. Yes, it's a JD plan, but it's about as far removed from the marathon plan as you can get. I've never really tried my hand at 5k, so relish the prospect. A lofty goal, but I'd love to have a crack at sub-16.

The alternative approach would be to try to follow my club-buddy down his path, but to be honest, I think I've missed that boat and the mind and body (and family) wouldn't stand up to that kind of punishment. I'm not one to use age as an excuse, but I've a pretty good idea at this stage what the engine will take, and I don't think that a prolonged period of 100+ miles per week is on the agenda. His coach has run some incredible times and I'm sure he will too (I hope he'll be targeting 2:25 instead of 2:30 for his next marathon), but I'm nowhere near that level. For now, the 5k plan feels right.

ecoli

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Ehm, yeah, but the race was before I got the chest infection.

As for the rest of your post, those are very much the conclusions I've come to myself. I think having almost completed three back to back JD marathon plans I've become accustomed to the training load, so to repeat the process further would not be as beneficial. I'm not sure what I'll do when I get to marathon time, but I'll work that out when I get there. But I'm really looking forward to the 5k-15k plan. Yes, it's a JD plan, but it's about as far removed from the marathon plan as you can get. I've never really tried my hand at 5k, so relish the prospect. A lofty goal, but I'd love to have a crack at sub-16.

The alternative approach would be to try to follow my club-buddy down his path, but to be honest, I think I've missed that boat and the mind and body (and family) wouldn't stand up to that kind of punishment. I'm not one to use age as an excuse, but I've a pretty good idea at this stage what the engine will take, and I don't think that a prolonged period of 100+ miles per week is on the agenda. His coach has run some incredible times and I'm sure he will too (I hope he'll be targeting 2:25 instead of 2:30 for his next marathon), but I'm nowhere near that level. For now, the 5k plan feels right.

Whoops mixing up the BHAA race and the upcoming Championships in your posts. Having said that I think sometimes we can still have an effect on races before symptoms actually start to appear . I know previously unexplained bad performances have be followed shortly by a bout of flu etc so it could still have been a factor.

In terms of the approach taken maybe it is just the fact I am not a huge fan of Daniels for the most part but I tend to find that from 800-15k the plan is designed from a strength perspective. I think given Daniels background this tends to yield the best benefits for many of the target audience (US runners who are coming from more speed based background in lacking endurance wise) but I think given you history of Ultra marathons and years of high mileage a plan incorporating a more speed based approach (I know Daniels contains speed work but I don't feel there is too much work regarding speed enhancement but rather strength based speed tolerance) would be an aspect which would add a whole new dynamic to your training and running fitness.

Again this my own opinion and as such should be seen as just a different point of view with regarding working on weakness rather than playing to strengths but I reckon that off some plans there is no reason why you couldn't manage a sub 16 off 50-60 miles a week given your base with a change in approach.

Just food for thought but I would be more inclined to go for a completely different plan for the 5k stuff before moving back to Daniels for the next Marathon plan would be a recipe for breaking through to a whole new level and restore the enthusiasm for the Daniels plan which you had when you first got a taste for it.

BeepBeep67

Sunday will be a good race, they'll be coming down from the hills, trekking barefoot across craggy bogs and crawling out from under rocks for this one. Difficult one to call, anyone of 4 clubs could take it on the day.

Krusty_Clown

ecoli wrote: »

Just food for thought but I would be more inclined to go for a completely different plan for the 5k stuff before moving back to Daniels

I don't have any other points of reference. Know of any other 5k plans worth a look?

Guinness Marketing Department wrote:

Sunday will be a good race, they'll be coming down from the hills, trekking barefoot across craggy bogs and crawling out from under rocks for this one. Difficult one to call, anyone of 4 clubs could take it on the day.

Yeah, looking forward to it, if only for the competition rather than the participation. I'm still only at 50%. Hope you're bringing your game face!

ecoli

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I don't have any other points of reference. Know of any other 5k plans worth a look?

Don't let the title put you off but I think the Jan Feb schedule on this would be in line with my thinking with regarding coming from a more speed development based angle. Could provide a good template.

(The Track Aerobic Endurance phase in link below)

http://img.runningwarehouse.com/pdf/middle_distance_guide.pdf

Krusty_Clown

ecoli wrote: »

Don't let the title put you off but I think the Jan Feb schedule on this would be in line with my thinking with regarding coming from a more speed development based angle. Could provide a good template.

You mean this section?
Jan: 6 x 80-100 strides (2 @ 3k, 2 @ 1500, 2 @ 800) w/ easy jog back, 4-6 x 150 acceleration (last 10m at best RELAXED top end speed), walk back. 4-6 x 30 at best RELAXED top end speed, super easy walk back

Feb: 6 x 80-100 strides (2 @ 3k, 2 @ 1500, 2 @ 800) w/ easy jog back, 4-6 x 150 (50m accelerate/50m float/50m accelerate) with last 10m of each 50 acceleration at best RELAXED top end speed, walk back. 6-8 x 30 at best RELAXED top end speed or 4-6 x 80-120m hard, faster hill reps on fairly steep incline either with super easy walk back recoveries.

ecoli

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You mean this section?
Jan: 6 x 80-100 strides (2 @ 3k, 2 @ 1500, 2 @ 800) w/ easy jog back, 4-6 x 150 acceleration (last 10m at best RELAXED top end speed), walk back. 4-6 x 30 at best RELAXED top end speed, super easy walk back

Feb: 6 x 80-100 strides (2 @ 3k, 2 @ 1500, 2 @ 800) w/ easy jog back, 4-6 x 150 (50m accelerate/50m float/50m accelerate) with last 10m of each 50 acceleration at best RELAXED top end speed, walk back. 6-8 x 30 at best RELAXED top end speed or 4-6 x 80-120m hard, faster hill reps on fairly steep incline either with super easy walk back recoveries.

Yeah thats the one.

ecoli

Alternatively this is probably one of the best articles I have seen regarding 5k training;

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-5k-puzzle?page=single

Krusty_Clown

ecoli wrote: »

Alternatively this is probably one of the best articles I have seen regarding 5k training;

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/solving-5k-puzzle?page=single

I like it. At least is's a little more complete and measurable (harder to divide a non-marked cinder track into 50m segments!). Will have a good read through. Might consider:
January: 2 x 2 weeks base building
February: 2 x 2 weeks race phase
and see how I get on. Had hoped to run Bohermeen Half at the start of March, but this program is pretty 5k specific, while the JD 5k-15k program would be a little more forgiving, but eyes on the goal..

wrstan

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Sunday will be a good race, they'll be coming down from the hills, trekking barefoot across craggy bogs and crawling out from under rocks for this one. Difficult one to call, anyone of 4 clubs could take it on the day.

Good luck tomorrow Gary.

I'm really looking forward to watching this from the grandstands (as opposed to from the back of the field )