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Waterford University discussion
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What exactly does WIT stand to lose?
WIT gets University status, the HQ will be in Waterford (suggestions to the contraty branded as 'nonsence' by the Minister), and the campus in Waterford will be expanded.
Some people what to pull the whole thing down because they can't stand the idea of any other county in the South East also benefiting. It's utterly stupid.
I think you are wrong in the final paragraph of your post, but you may indeed be right in your first two paragraphs. You may also be wrong in them as well.
There is a terrible lack of trust in this government and in this minister in Waterford. Cath lab being one, but in WIT terms, the stand out reason is the failure to proceed and constant cancellation of the WIT engineering building. Believe me now says Harris, in spite of this and things will be different this time. That's a hard sell in any language.
Lots of people see nothing wrong with a campus in Wexford except that Carlow has tried it for 25 years without success. What ingredient will make it work this time? Rumours of Wexford being touted as engineering campus are rife.
TCD has been around since 1594 its great to see the number of campuses of that university all over Ireland! There is a reason for critical mass and scale.0 -
What exactly does WIT stand to lose?
WIT gets University status, the HQ will be in Waterford (suggestions to the contraty branded as 'nonsence' by the Minister), and the campus in Waterford will be expanded.
Some people what to pull the whole thing down becasue they can't stand the idea of any other county in the South East also benefiting. It's utterly stupid.
WIT stands to lose control and funding. The governing body of political appointees and regional stakeholders can vote down any advancement or expansion for Waterford, beginning with the HQ. The minister said non-sense because the decision hasn’t been made yet, it will be made by the future governing body. If you think that’s stupid you clearly haven’t seen what’s happened out hospital since it went under the South South West hospital group. This has all happened before!
Again, if you read my post, you’d see we are not getting UNIVERSITY status. It’s a technological university, if you find a decent definition for what that is then please let us know. For all intents an purposes it is almost identical to IoTs but more focused on STEM (so what happens the non-STEM courses in WIT and ITC?).
People want to pull the whole thing down because it’s about taking away from Waterford; campuses, schools, departments, jobs! We only get vague promises, nothing concrete and in the absence of clarity is pure distrust based on past experience!0 -
What exactly does WIT stand to lose?
WIT gets University status, the HQ will be in Waterford (suggestions to the contraty branded as 'nonsence' by the Minister), and the campus in Waterford will be expanded.
Some people what to pull the whole thing down becasue they can't stand the idea of any other county in the South East also benefiting. It's utterly stupid.
The south east will go from having two 3rd level institutions to just one, one that will not be University standard.
Every IoT in the country is earmarked to become a TU, similar to the upgrade or RTC's to IoT's, therefore if every other IoT is to become a TU, how is the SE region any stronger? Is it not just a case of keeping up with everyone else.
If any government was serious about addressing the problems in the SE, we would keep two 3rd level institutions, one becoming a fully fledged Uni and the other becoming a TU.0 -
JimWinters wrote: »People want to pull the whole thing down because it’s about taking away from Waterford
Baseless paranoid nonsence. Seriously, go peddle this tripe in the conspericy forum.
You are trying to argue that this whole process is about stealing from Waterford, based on ZERO evidence. Your argument is not credible.0 -
Baseless paranoid nonsence. Seriously, go peddle this tripe in the conspericy forum.
You are trying to argue that this whole process is about stealing from Waterford, based on ZERO evidence. Your argument is not credible.
TU is a farce though, as previously said ever IoT in the country is ear marked for TU status.
You seem to be missing that whole point and also the fact that the SE will not have a fully fledged Uni?
The SE goes from two institutions to just the one. In order for the SE to seriously compete we require one fully fledged Uni and a TU.
In order for the TU to compete and be a success is requires the bones of €500 million, to date we have heard the government have pledged €150 million to the SETU, all of this bar the wexford campus are projects spanning back as far as over 13 years old and some or projects already underway as IoTs.
We have experience of this with WUH over the years, I for one can not see the 500 million required to be invested0 -
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What exactly does WIT stand to lose?
WIT gets University status, the HQ will be in Waterford (suggestions to the contraty branded as 'nonsence' by the Minister), and the campus in Waterford will be expanded.
Some people what to pull the whole thing down becasue they can't stand the idea of any other county in the South East also benefiting. It's utterly stupid.
It is not stupid at all if you look at the facts.
I ask you. Waterford is a regional city the same as Cork, Limerick and Galway. Why invent a different model for Waterford? Why not just upgrade WIT, an institute already deemed to be working at university level by an outside panel, to a full university? Which would be nothing more than giving equality with the other regional cities and the easiest thing to do.
Why has every minster refused to talk to local media, council etc in Waterford about the TUSE?0 -
It is not stupid at all if you look at the facts.
I ask you. Waterford is a regional city the same as Cork, Limerick and Galway. Why invent a different model for Waterford? Why not just upgrade WIT, an institute already deemed to be working at university level by an outside panel, to a full university? Which would be nothing more than giving equality with the other regional cities and the easiest thing to do.
Why has every minster refused to talk to local media, council etc in Waterford about the TUSE?
Yes, a Waterford University would be preferable, but thats neither here nor there as its not on the table. What is on the table is TUSE, and turning our nose up at it because its not perfect is very stupid.
The fact is TUSE, and the investment and expanded campus footprint in Waterford that go with it, is better than what we have now. A handful of political hacks, and we all know who they are, are trying to wreck the project for their own political advantage by trying to pretend that Waterford is being stitched up and whipping people up into an inter-county pissing match over a HQ the dogs in the street know will be in Waterford. It's nonsense of the highest order, and sad to see people getting sucked into it.0 -
Yes, a Waterford University would be preferable, but thats neither here nor there as its not on the table. What is on the table is TUSE, and turning our nose up at it because its not perfect is very stupid.
The fact is TUSE, and the investment and expanded campus footprint in Waterford that go with it, is better than what we have now. A handful of political hacks, and we all know who they are, are trying to wreck the project for their own political advantage by trying to pretend that Waterford is being stitched up and whipping people up into an inter-county pissing match over a HQ the dogs in the street know will be in Waterford. It's nonsense of the highest order, and sad to see people getting sucked into it.
Could you provide details on this expansion of the Waterford Campus? Can you provide the increased students numbers? how many buildings are we looking at? Their purpose?0 -
Yes, a Waterford University would be preferable, but thats neither here nor there as its not on the table. What is on the table is TUSE, and turning our nose up at it because its not perfect is very stupid.
So we settle for second best. Can we fight for ITCarlow to become a TU with a wexford campus.
Then pump the €250 million required in WIT over the next 5-10 years and then ear mark WIT become a fully fledged Uni, then the region has fully Uni and TU.
The TU process is like having a family of five looking to buy a house. They meet the builder who said he will build the house, the family ask to see the plans but are told, no no don't worry about that you just agree to buy the house here and I'll build you a fine house.
The family agree and the builder builds a fine 2 bed mid terrace house for the family of five!0 -
Yes, a Waterford University would be preferable, but thats neither here nor there as its not on the table. What is on the table is TUSE, and turning our nose up at it because its not perfect is very stupid.
The fact is TUSE, and the investment and expanded campus footprint in Waterford that go with it, is better than what we have now. A handful of political hacks, and we all know who they are, are trying to wreck the project for their own political advantage by trying to pretend that Waterford is being stitched up and whipping people up into an inter-county pissing match over a HQ the dogs in the street know will be in Waterford. It's nonsense of the highest order, and sad to see people getting sucked into it.
Look at the end of the day the new TU is going to be more expensive to run and they are not getting additional day to day funding for it. Reduced running costs was one of the key reasons why the Hunt Report introduced mergers. It makes no financial sense to merge.: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/another-tech-university-project-hit-by-wrangle-over-26m-issue-38294742.html
The TU project came about as a land grab by Hogan and Howlin to get campuses in their constituencies. https://www.rte.ie/news/player/prime-time/2014/1104/
Fine Gael are pushing the TU because they want two seats in Wexford and Kilkenny in the next election. They’re not bothered about getting a single seat in Waterford. The dogs on the street know that if the HQ was 100% going to be in Waterford they’d just announce that and we can put that one to bed. They’ve pushed that decision down the road, why?!
And what expanded footprint? What does that even mean? Either they’re going to commit to additional buildings, other than the engineering building, or not. By the way, the engineering building is a swap for College St, so overall it will reduce the footprint!!!
The situation with UHW has been discussed at length here. We were promised a lot for joining the hospital group but expansions were cancelled, funding funnelled to CUH, departments reduced and beds closed. Simon Harris has a history of flawed reports and failing Waterford and costing lives and jobs. We expect nothing less from him in his current role.
Who are these political hacks? What do they have to gain from the TU not going ahead? The TU failing would be terrible for Waterford but anyone who’s looked at previous form from the government is right to fear it will be worse if it goes ahead without solid commitments, funding allocated and transparency on the vision on what the new TU will be. All were being told is that the decisions will be made in January 2022 and by then WIT will no longer exist, there will be no going back!!0 -
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So we settle for second best. Can we fight for ITCarlow to become a TU with a wexford campus.
Then pump the €250 million required in WIT over the next 5-10 years and then ear mark WIT become a fully fledged Uni, then the region has fully Uni and TU.
The TU process is like having a family of five looking to buy a house. They meet the builder who said he will build the house, the family ask to see the plans but are told, no no don't worry about that you just agree to buy the house here and I'll build you a fine house.
The family agree and the builder builds a fine 2 bed mid terrace house for the family of five!
Great analogy, just to add that the builder is going to knock down their existing house which is perfectly suitable before showing them any plans. And that same cowboy builder has burnt the family multiple times already! Who in their right mind would agree to that?0 -
JimWinters wrote: »The dogs on the street know that if the HQ was 100% going to be in Waterford they’d just announce that and we can put that one to bed. They’ve pushed that decision down the road, why?!
Right, so you want the decision about the HQ made by the Minister, and not the governing authority of the TU. Presumably, that means that the governing authority can never be allowed have decision making power over it's own administrative layout? What other political interferance do you want to see in the running of the TU? Are there other decisions about the running of the TU that should be taken out of the hands of its governing authority? Should the Minister decide what courses are offered, staff pay? Where does it stop? Why stop at deciding where the HQ is located?And what expanded footprint? What does that even mean? Either they’re going to commit to additional buildings, other than the engineering building, or not. By the way, the engineering building is a swap for College St, so overall it will reduce the footprint!!!
Footprint = the physical space of the TU.
Expanded = bigger.
You know as well as I do that the purchase of the former glass factory site for the expansion of the TU is being negiotiated by the department with the owner, so stop playing silly buggers.Who are these political hacks?
Your buddies by all appearences.0 -
Right, so you want the decision about the HQ made by the Minister, and not the governing authority of the TU. Presumably, that means that the governing authority can never be allowed have decision making power over it's own administrative layout? What other political interferance do you want to see in the running of the TU? Are there other decisions about the running of the TU that should be taken out of the hands of its governing authority? Should the Minister decide what courses are offered, staff pay? Where does it stop? Why stop at deciding where the HQ is located?
Footprint = the physical space of the TU.
Expanded = bigger.
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If the government can not make the decision on the HQ how can the government decided on creating additional campuses?
Theoretically, what if the newly formed governing body of the TU are against additional campuses, should expansion decisions not also be made by the new authority???
Regarding expansion, can you provide the increased student numbers? Type of teaching buildings and the purpose.
There is already a plan in place to move move college st campus in Waterford to the main campus so again theoretically, if the new engineering building and college st is moved to Waterford Crystal, we will see no expansion. Engineering building promised since 2013.0 -
If the government can not make the decision on the HQ how can the government decided on creating additional campuses?
Theoretically, what if the newly formed governing body of the TU are against additional campuses, should expansion decisions not also be made by the new authority???
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Best point of the current discussion.
Minister Harris can make a decision in advance about a campus in Wexford based on zero report or evidence of its possible need or impact, but cannot make a decision about HQ location. It is entirely possible and even probable, that a decision to open a Wexford campus would NOT be made after merger, by a truly independent board. But the politics doesn't want that to contemplate that possibility, because it cuts across FG seat winning ambitions.0 -
Yes, a Waterford University would be preferable, but thats neither here nor there as its not on the table. What is on the table is TUSE, and turning our nose up at it because its not perfect is very stupid.
The fact is TUSE, and the investment and expanded campus footprint in Waterford that go with it, is better than what we have now. A handful of political hacks, and we all know who they are, are trying to wreck the project for their own political advantage by trying to pretend that Waterford is being stitched up and whipping people up into an inter-county pissing match over a HQ the dogs in the street know will be in Waterford. It's nonsense of the highest order, and sad to see people getting sucked into it.
Other options are “neither here nor there” we should just accept what is on the table! Actually think you are a FG hack at this stage.0 -
Best point of the current discussion.
Minister Harris can make a decision in advance about a campus in Wexford based on zero report or evidence of its possible need or impact, but cannot make a decision about HQ location. It is entirely possible and even probable, that a decision to open a Wexford campus would NOT be made after merger, by a truly independent board.
Important to note that the Wexford campus is still unlikely to happen. Harris did say that planning what will be located in Wexford is a matter for the new board.
The land is under consideration to be bought, it will be a few years before master planning and planning permission would be sought... so the new board will be in place when this moves forward.
The political significance of all this is that nothing will be built in the SE during the current spending purple patch (€10bn capital spending this year; €7bn last year), the expectation in Dublin is that by the time the institution is settled and has a coherent capital plan there will be no money in the country and the Govt will say 'shucks you guys in the SE did not get your house in order in time' and blame WIT/IT Carlow... TUSE and Wexford/KK. Meanwhile, our lunch (young people, economy etc....) is being eaten in Cork and Dublin.0 -
Right, so you want the decision about the HQ made by the Minister, and not the governing authority of the TU.
As mentioned by others, the minister is happy to announce a significant campus in Wexford and not wait to leave that decision to the governing authority. You can't have it both ways.Footprint = the physical space of the TU.
Expanded = bigger.
Again, no specifics. It's 6 weeks since Leo said they were "examining the old Waterford Crystal in particular as a potential site that could be purchased and used to expand the TU once it’s established". There's nothing concrete in that at all. If you know of some negotiations please do fill us in. If not, then it's you that's playing silly buggers.Your buddies by all appearences.
I don't have any buddies in politics unfortunately, sorry to disappoint you there. I did email all local TDs and in fairness I got a reply from them all. That's as much as I've talked to any of them. You sound like you're far more involved though...0 -
be careful folks, the john cummins, FG and FF bots are out in force at the moment doing their partys bidding.
Likely reading and writing all over this thread infact.
A complete carve up and dilution of WIT for political appeasement across the region, it wont solve any Waterford specific issues just create an infinite amount more.
If someone can explain to me how many a TU out of every IT solves socio economic issues im all ears ?
Also - sinn fein are absolutely disgraceful in this as an opposition party.0 -
SeanieW1977 wrote: »Likely reading and writing all over this thread infact.
There's some Greens getting in on it here too! Marc hasn't had a whole lot to say publicly on this mess of a TU, he's not to bothered about WIT losing out either it seems...0 -
Other options are “neither here nor there” we should just accept what is on the table! Actually think you are a FG hack at this stage.
Alright, lets reject whats on offer, collapse the whole thing, cancel the investment, be stuck with the only IT in the country while everyone else moves on. Forget about getting a university for another decade or more, great. Brilliant plan for the county you have there.
Why do you think you know more than the people actually working on this, why in gods name would SF support it if you are right and everyone involved in it is wrong? It would be so easy for them as an opposition party to oppose it if the project is in reality as rotten as you seem to think. What makes you so sure that you have some special secret insight that everyone else seems to lack?
Get over yourself.0 -
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Alright, lets reject whats on offer, collapse the whole thing, cancel the investment, be stuck with the only IT in the country while everyone else moves on. Forget about getting a university for another decade or more, great. Brilliant plan for the county you have there.
Why do you think you know more than the people actually working on this, why in gods name would SF support it if you are right and everyone involved in it is wrong? It would be so easy for them as an opposition party to oppose it if the project is in reality as rotten as you seem to think. What makes you so sure that you have some special secret insight that everyone else seems to lack?
Get over yourself.
Ok, so what kind of government would cancel the funding?
Let's say the plug was pulled. If the government were serious about delivering for the south east they could easily draw a line under it and decided the €250 million required for WIT we will continue to invest, we'll expand the footprint and have WIT become a full University by 2030.
Having a TU by 2022 it's not actually going to operate as a TU for the first few years, it will take time to build up and a lot of time to obtain International recognition.
Remember our politician's also supported the hospital reconfiguration and look at how that turned out, it's a shambles.
Again you are settling for just keeping up with the jones instead of actually getting the south east to a higher level.
The Higher Education strategy is only till 2030. We will most likely see a change to how TUs are formed or how you can apply for full Uni.
Therefore the government could still invest the same level of funding for both WIT and Carlow and come 2030 both institutes could go it alone of WIT could become full Uni and Carlow TU.
That would have the SE in a far stronger position.
Waterford Regional Hospital became Waterford "University" hospital and it's no where near the standard of a University hospital, it is only University by name.
A TU is the same, it will not have access to the same capital funding as full Universities.
If the application process for TU had really strong criteria we would most likely only have seen dublin TU and SETU formed but this shambles allows every IoT in the country to apply for TU and be granted TU status, how the hell does that make the SE any stronger if every other IoT can become a TU?
Back to our politician's they are supportive as they see it as the "only game in town" and they see their legacy of delivering a "University" for the south east, not a full university but at least it has the name.
Not one of them can provide and specific detailed plan for the TU or a plan to get the TU to become a full Uni, they actually don't have a clue and are happy to toe the party line.
WIT has been meeting TU criteria since 2015 and yet has to merge in order to become a TU, I honestly see no sense in it.
We have several independent reports supporting WIT going it alone for TU and even suggest WIT becoming a full Uni, so the real question is why are the government so hell bent on holding the south east back?0 -
Ok, so what kind of government would cancel the funding?
Let's say the plug was pulled. If the government were serious about delivering for the south east they could easily draw a line under it and decided the €250 million required for WIT we will continue to invest, we'll expand the footprint and have WIT become a full University by 2030.
We have several independent reports supporting WIT going it alone for TU and even suggest WIT becoming a full Uni, so the real question is why are the government so hell bent on holding the south east back?
Which is it?
Either the government is fully committed to delivering for the south east, in which case there is no risk to collapsing the process as the government will come through for us regardless. Or the government is hell bent on holding the south east back, in which case there is surely grave risk in collapsing the process we have.
You should figure out what you are actually arguing here and get back to me, you can't have it both ways.0 -
Which is it?
Either the government is fully committed to delivering for the south east, in which case there is no risk to collapsing the process as the government will come through for us regardless. Or the government is hell bent on holding the south east back, in which case there is surely grave risk in collapsing the process we have.
You should figure out what you are actually arguing here and get back to me, you can't have it both ways.
They clearly said IF the government were serious about delivering for the South East. I don't think you'll see many here believing that they are....0 -
Christy Browne wrote: »They clearly said IF the government were serious about delivering for the South East. I don't think you'll see many here believing that they are....
Right, so collapse the process, lose the investment, set university status back for decdes. Great plan.0 -
Right, so collapse the process, lose the investment, set university status back for decdes. Great plan.
Right so.
Every single IoT in the country is earmarked for TU status. How does that make the SE any stronger?
Can provide the increased student numbers due to the TU expansion in the SE?
Do you feel the SE is best served with two institutions as opposed to 1?
Finally can you provide the plan to get the TUSE from TU to full University. (Time scale)
If you can not then we are no nearer a University then we were in the 00's.0 -
Right so.
Every single IoT in the country is earmarked for TU status. How does that make the SE any stronger?
Can provide the increased student numbers due to the TU expansion in the SE?
Do you feel the SE is best served with two institutions as opposed to 1?
Finally can you provide the plan to get the TUSE from TU to full University. (Time scale)
If you can not then we are no nearer a University then we were in the 00's.
And where is your plan?
All I have seen from you is:
1. Oppose Everything
2. ???
3. Things will be better.
Demanding detail from others while providing nothing yourself? What makes you think collapsing this process will result in a better outcome for Waterford, and what are the details of exactly how it will happen?0 -
And where is your plan?
All I have seen from you is:
1. Oppose Everything
2. ???
3. Things will be better.
Demanding detail from others while providing nothing yourself? What makes you think collapsing this process will result in a better outcome for Waterford, and what are the details of exactly how it will happen?
Actually I would be fully support the TUSE if the application criteria was stringent but it's not. MTU had several issues highlighted by the International panel and the government still gave the green light.
The idea of the TU was to get DIT and WIT to uni level as they were the only institutions knocking on the the door meeting the specific criteria.
Had DIT and a joint submission of WIT and Carlow were the only ones to become a TU then it would be beneficial for the region and set us a part but now we are seeing a repeat of the upgrade/name change from RTCs to IoTs.
It is a one for everybody in the audience job and to appeas votes and parish pump politics.
As previously stated WIT has been meeting the criteria TU level since 2015 despite only receiving €2 million per year from 2008 - present time.
It is clear to see why me or anyone is very suspicious of the TU. If I was to see a concrete plan, detailed funding, student number increases then I am all for it.
"Things will get better" like the hospital reconfiguration where we still see heart attack victim's being transported to Cork and Dublin.
I honestly hope I am wrong with my suspicions, I really do, but we have been here before, promised the sun moon and the stars, just sign up it will all be fine and then in 5-10 years our political representatives will be on the airwaves complaining how we are not getting our fair share of the cake.
Two ways it goes,
Option 1
as all IoTs are changed to TU we will see a massive increase in 3rd level education funding to get all newly formed TUs up the the required level.
1 billion for Dublin TU
500 million for TUSE
500 million for MTU
I'll stab a guess 500 million for limerick/Athlone
500 million for connaught alliance
500 million for whoever dundalk partner with
Increase in full uni funding as they will demand to ensure the stay ahead if TUs
Or option 2
We see some level of investment in the start and in 10-20 years we are back talking about the lack of Uni in the southeast, how we are experiencing the brain drain bla bla bla.
I do not see this massive increase in 3rd level Education.
What is my solution? actually having a government who want to deliver a Uni for the south east.
Commit to that, fund the institute or institutions to the level required and then submit an application for full uni.
The name "University" means F all, it's all about the level of investment. Take MIT and California IoT as an example in the states. Both are IoTs are ranked as the top 5 Universities in the world.
We don't need the name university what we actually need is the level of funding required.0 -
What is my solution? actually having a government who want to deliver a Uni for the south east.
And you are demanding details of others?
Your hand waving is falling far short of the specific detailed plan for the TU you are demanding of others on this thread. You actually don't have a clue.0 -
And you are demanding details of others?
Your hand waving is falling far short of the specific detailed plan for the TU you are demanding of others on this thread. You actually don't have a clue.
Your right, I don't have a clue, I'll admit that, I am looking at it from the outside in and this is what I have seen.
Waterford has been trying to obtain full University status for decades, several independent reports on the merit of WIT obtaining University status.
Several parties calling and supporting WIT to become a University but once in power it is all forgotten about.
Now I see a new hybrid solution, preventing Waterford or WIT progressing on their own, a uni but not a uni and see every IoT in the country obtaining the same status. Reduced the SE from 2 Institutes to 1 institutes.
So I have concerns, and to date none of our TD's have addressed my concerns. I have heard minister Harris on south east radio and kclr talking about the TU but have yet to hear the minister on WLR to address the concerns.
And yes I am guilty of holding onto the past failings of government in Waterford and maybe I need to let that go, but I have yet to see anything in the TU plans for TUSE to convince me otherwise.0 -
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And you are demanding details of others?
Your hand waving is falling far short of the specific detailed plan for the TU you are demanding of others on this thread. You actually don't have a clue.
You’re great at asking questions, not so great at answering them. You must be a politician yourself
Here’s some questions for you...
You’re happy to have a Technological University even though we don’t really know what a Technological University is? The legislation isn’t at all specific. It’s supposed to be focused on STEM subjects but TUSEI will be more focused on Business, Humanities and Education, how does that work?
You’re ok with it costing €3m more per year to run with no additional funding and mounting debt (€25m by 2025) which will lead to worse learning outcomes?
You’re also ok with no guarantees, or even details, on the “expanded footprint” even with the loss of college st? Shouldn’t we still be getting the engineering building regardless of the TU process or are you saying we’re being blackmailed into merging to get something we were promised multiple times over 13 years? If that’s the case do you really expect us to trust the government??
You’re ok with governance being spread across the region when this hasn’t happened with any other TU?
You’re happy for the south east to catch up by going slower, getting less funding, having less institutes and no university?
The ideal here is that we stall the process until we have clarity, transparency and equality with other city regions. We should be getting at least €250m same as MTU.
The other options we have include staying as an IoT and use that as our USP. We can then wait 5 years and apply to become a full university again under the 1997 Universities act.0
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