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Waterford University discussion

  • 26-09-2008 3:37pm
    #1
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    Okay, as most of you remember we closed the other University discussion thread because people refused to discuss it without throwing abusive comments at each other, attacking posters and being general idiots. Its been a fair bit of time since then, so it has been agreed to go with attempt #2. This time, no **** will be taken. This is your only warning: Stick to the Waterford City Forum Charter & Boards.ie Rules.

    For those who wish to discuss the pros/cons of a university in WIT, you may do so in this thread. Lets have a civil, friendly debate. Not everybody is going to agree/disagree with a University being granted in Waterford - so don't attack them for having a different opinion to yours. Debate their point by all means, just don't go throwing abuse at them for having such an opinion. Attack the Post. NOT the Poster.

    Sorry for a serious first post, but after the last discussion, its needed!


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 656 chickenhawk
    Registered User


    I don't think WIT should be upgraded to a university. I don't see the need for it. People in this country are obsessed by status. I went to UCD and don't feel that I would be any better off had I gone to Trinity or Sligo IT etc. A Institute of Technology is established to focus on different areas of study compared to universities and they should aim to excel in that area, not go trying to become a university because it sounds better.

    If you look at the worlds top third level colleges one that is always ranked within the top ten is Massachusettes Institute of Technology. They have become the best in their field and no one who goes to Harvard would ever look down at someone who went to MIT and say they went to an inferrior college.

    Just because it is not called a university does not mean it can not be one of the best third level institutions in the country or world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭ Chochese
    Registered User


    I don't understand why WIT needs to be upgraded to a University. By tradition, an IT is a centre for study for fields like Computers, Business, Sciences etc. All fields where WIT are excelling. In contrast, a University traditionally caters for Arts (Languages, Histories, Political Aciences...), Medicine and the like, courses in which WIT do not have strong (if any) connections or courses.

    Why try to be a mediocre university when WIT can be a world class IT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,624 ✭✭✭✭ Fajitas!
    Registered User


    Chochese wrote: »
    Why try to be a mediocre university when WIT can be a world class IT.

    +1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,556 ✭✭✭ Nolanger
    Banned


    Could be worth it for the top Waterford students wanting to study medicine, dentistry etc. But even these courses don't guarantee jobs anymore e.g. Physiotherapy.
    Irish universities are not the best anyway so it would be better for Waterford becoming one of the world's best Technology Institutes rather than not even making the world's top 1000 of universities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,624 ✭✭✭✭ Fajitas!
    Registered User


    It'd be interesting to see the potential difference in fee's between Uni & IT status colleges when they come in.

    It might change some peoples minds.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭ stick-dan
    Registered User


    Fajitas! wrote: »
    It'd be interesting to see the potential difference in fee's between Uni & IT status colleges when they come in.

    It might change some peoples minds.

    +1


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    The management/organisation in WIT is terrible. Im not sure if its the same in all ITs/Universities but its shocking what the college gets away with at times. Iv argued that if this is how it is at an IT, imagine if it was a University - it could be a LOT worse. Others say it would improve (more money, able to hire better staff etc.)

    Im unsure, but this is one reason why im more against rather then for. I like the idea of a world class IT tho.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭ Dan133269
    Registered User


    Fajitas! wrote: »
    It'd be interesting to see the potential difference in fee's between Uni & IT status colleges when they come in.

    It might change some peoples minds.

    Bat O' Keefe said the threshold for families' income would be no less than 100,000 euro. If they don't stick to that they'll be lambasted and rightfully so. Thankfully that won't affect the majority of college goers.
    Sully wrote: »
    The management/organisation in WIT is terrible. Im not sure if its the same in all ITs/Universities but its shocking what the college gets away with at times. Iv argued that if this is how it is at an IT, imagine if it was a University - it could be a LOT worse. Others say it would improve (more money, able to hire better staff etc.)

    Im unsure, but this is one reason why im more against rather then for. I like the idea of a world class IT tho.

    Have heard that from numerous people who went to the WIT. Seems to be something that some colleges have. I went to UL for 4 years and can't really complain about organisation, administrative or structual problems, apart from the college placement/co-operative department which was an absolute farce. Mary I in Limerick is apparently unbelieveable for this problem. Have heard stories from reliable sources of printing facilities being shut down at random and without explanation, students being informed in the middle of exams that they have 30 minues less than what they were supposed to have and what is printed on exam paper.

    Anyway, I think changing WIT to a university would be a bad decision. It's working very well the way it is, if it's not broke, don't fix it. HOWEVER, to address the area of a university for the south east, if it's really needed (I'm not saying it isn't, I just don't know for sure, proper research has to be done. Not just looking at a map of Ireland and pointing out a blank area in the south east) then a separate University should be built in Waterford.

    Imagine if WIT was upgraded to University, something which by the way I don't think has ever happened in the history of the state, you would then have a situation where school leavers would be faced with the option of attending a post leaving cert. college i.e. waterford college of further education or a big leap to university with no IT in between.
    Furthermore the courses will have changed seeing as ITs and Universities have different emphases on courses, and many school leavers will be forced to leave Waterford just to do an IT course seeing as there would be no IT in Waterford.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭✭✭ Deise-Girl..xx


    wit does not deserve university status. The college is badly run. There is a lot of problems in wit. One of the main ones is the parking situation. They can build new state of the art buildings yet they cant provide parking spaces for the people attending.
    Im a second yr student and have loads of questions from 1st yrs about where to find rooms, lecturers offices etc. I think wit is totally unhelpful to new students. Your simply given a timetable and are expected to find your own way around.
    And omg dont get me started on the reception. Usually only one person working there even though the que can be a mile long and the people working there can be ignorant and treat you as if your a nuisance.
    These are only a few of the reasons why wit doesnt deserve to be a university..i could write more but id be here all day!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭ dlofnep


    The parking at the moment is outrageous. It gets worse and worse every year. You literally don't have a spot unless you're in at 9am classes. They really need to rectify this. There is alot of grass that could be slabbed down. I don't care what X amount of grass is needed. I'm sure the residents would rather it slabbed down than have cars littered throughout Lismore Park. I'll definately be campaigning on it this year.


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The parking at the moment is outrageous. It gets worse and worse every year. You literally don't have a spot unless you're in at 9am classes. They really need to rectify this. There is alot of grass that could be slabbed down. I don't care what X amount of grass is needed. I'm sure the residents would rather it slabbed down than have cars littered throughout Lismore Park. I'll definately be campaigning on it this year.

    If I recall, they cant build on the grass. There not allowed. Saying that though, they seem more interested in putting new buildings elsewhere before looking at the parking situation. This year, its been made worse by reducing the amount of spaces (id say by at least a 100) available. Go park elsewhere, the Gardai are now fining people. Saying that, can we hold the parking situation against them? Yes, but not for university.

    Saying that though, looking at the bigger picture of WIT and its problems - its a terribly run IT, constant problems for staff and students, lack of communication between staff and students, and thats not evening mentioning College St. The School of Humanites is probably the worst run department in the college.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭ dlofnep


    Sully wrote: »
    Go park elsewhere

    But where? But around 10:30, even Lismore Park is full. There is the IDA carparks, but they are quick to clamp you. I can stick mine in the AOL carpark if I'm stuck, but not everyone is that lucky. The college is obligated to provide sufficient parking spaces. People are late for classes, often missing entire classes in search of a parking space. I actually used to come in for breakfast at 9 last year, before 10am classes just so I could get a space. And working til midnight the night before, the last thing you want is to get up out of bed an our earlier than you have to.

    They need to sort out something, and something lively.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    dlofnep wrote: »
    But where? But around 10:30, even Lismore Park is full. There is the IDA carparks, but they are quick to clamp you. I can stick mine in the AOL carpark if I'm stuck, but not everyone is that lucky. The college is obligated to provide sufficient parking spaces. People are late for classes, often missing entire classes in search of a parking space. I actually used to come in for breakfast at 9 last year, before 10am classes just so I could get a space. And working til midnight the night before, the last thing you want is to get up out of bed an our earlier than you have to.

    They need to sort out something, and something lively.

    Selective quoting is bad - how many times do I have to tell you!! :p My point being made is, if you go to park anywhere else bar the college your getting fined. Im not telling people to "park elsehwere" as you suggest! :p

    I know people are parking in the campus besides the AIB bank and also some down in Waterford Crystal. But thats only a select few I know doing it. A lot of people just say "**** it, ill get clamped".


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭ BlaasForRafa
    Registered User


    Theres a thread about something crucial to the future of Waterford and the South-East and people are talking about f**king parking???, no wonder Waterford dosen't get anywhere if thats what we're debating.

    As per usual when a thread comes up about Waterford having a university you have outsiders saying we don't need one, usually from people from cities that already have a university or have a downer on Waterford but its heartbreaking to see Waterford people saying we don't need one. Wheres the ambition in this city???

    A large pool of university educated young people is one of the main reasons that high value employers, look at Galway, 30 years ago Galway was half the size of Waterford and now its bigger than Waterford. Now with recession biting and the need for a more well educated population greater than ever we're really behind the 8 ball when it comes to attractiveness to foreign investors.

    This city has relied on big manufacturing companies like Waterford Crystal, Bausch and Lomb and others over the years but manufacturing is dead, there will not be any major factories come to Waterford again..why should they when they can go to China. We need high-value jobs in the knowledge and service economy to come here but why should they when they can go to Galway, Cork or Limerick.....let alone Dublin.

    And this business about striving to be the best IT, other than MIT name me some other famous ITs? The IT designation was only brought into place as a sop to Waterford during the 1997 election campaign when we were looking for university status to distinguish Waterford from the other Regional Technical Colleges. The Cork RTC piped up with a "why should they be an IT and not us" and then Cork based minister Micheal Martin came into power and suddenly ALL the RTCs were Institutes of Technology thus losing the unique designation that only Waterford and DIT were meant to have.

    Also the populations of surrounding counties Kilkenny, Wexford, Carlow and South Tipp also suffer in jobs terms by not having a university nearby, their kids have to travel long distances if they want a university education.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    Theres a thread about something crucial to the future of Waterford and the South-East and people are talking about f**king parking???, no wonder Waterford dosen't get anywhere if thats what we're debating.

    Aye well I do agree with you there, but I think its part of an argument showing how bad the place actually is. Thus coming to the conclusion, that giving it university status when its in such a state (regardless of what type of education or facilities you get, which can also be questioned) would not be a good idea. Its a point, but I doubt its even part of the debate held amongst officials.


  • Registered Users Posts: 656 chickenhawk
    Registered User



    And this business about striving to be the best IT, other than MIT name me some other famous ITs?

    Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ranked in top thirty in the world.

    Karolinska Institute of Technology top 50

    Tokyo Institute of Technology top 100

    etc etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 johnnyq


    Swiss Federal Institute of Technology ranked in top thirty in the world.

    Karolinska Institute of Technology top 50

    Tokyo Institute of Technology top 100

    etc etc
    Eh, I hate to disappoint the 'well MIT is one of the Best IT's in the world why not Waterford IT' argument but all of the places you listed are in fact *universities* that kept their IT name.

    Just to repeat, they are actually universities!!

    Waterford IT is just one of 12? other regional colleges around Ireland under HETAC. Nothing Special!

    The point of the whole University discussion is that Waterford would break away from the HETAC quagmire and go solo - with a hell of a lot more funding to solve the parking and other problems people are moaning about.

    Call it Waterford Clown college for all anyone cares, it's all about breaking away from HETAC so Waterford will no longer be on a par with Tralee/Letterkenny IT!!

    Until that happens, Waterford will slump backwards.

    By all means keep the WIT name, just get the independent uni status!


  • Registered Users Posts: 656 chickenhawk
    Registered User


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Just to repeat, they are actually universities!!

    Lucky you repeated that or I wouldn't have understood what you were saying. :rolleyes:

    But I'll own up and say I thought they were ITs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,968 christophicus
    Registered User


    I have to agree, the organisation within the college is insainly bad. I know first years that had recieved no info about college starting even up to 3 days before they were supposed to register. TBH its really a farce, I don't know if university status would change it , but atm the college does not derserve Uni status. I would like to see WIT get all of the organisational aspects in check before it can credibly be considered for university status, and yes I am a student there so I have some hands on expeariance in the college.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 johnnyq


    I have to agree, the organisation within the college is insainly bad. I know first years that had recieved no info about college starting even up to 3 days before they were supposed to register. TBH its really a farce, I don't know if university status would change it , but atm the college does not derserve Uni status. I would like to see WIT get all of the organisational aspects in check before it can credibly be considered for university status, and yes I am a student there so I have some hands on expeariance in the college.
    I really am amazed how administration holds such sway amongst students at WIT?

    Here is the list of criteria for the THES-QS World University Rankings :
    -Academic excellence (research, citations/faculty),
    -Teaching (faculty/student ratio),
    -Internationality (how international the faculty is, how international the student body is)
    -Profile of the institution with employers.

    Does anyone see admin listed there?

    I mean really, when ye decided to go to a college (wit or whatever) did ye say 'Oh Yeah I hear the admin is great there'?!?!

    C'mon folks, can't ye see the benefit to Waterford and to ye're selves if WIT got proper research funding and started attracting international researchers??

    The focus on timetables etc.. is really cutting off ye're nose to spite your face.


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    johnnyq wrote: »
    I really am amazed how administration holds such sway amongst students at WIT?

    Here is the list of criteria for the THES-QS World University Rankings :
    -Academic excellence (research, citations/faculty),
    -Teaching (faculty/student ratio),
    -Internationality (how international the faculty is, how international the student body is)
    -Profile of the institution with employers.

    Does anyone see admin listed there?

    I mean really, when ye decided to go to a college (wit or whatever) did ye say 'Oh Yeah I hear the admin is great there'?!?!

    Its very stressful for students in a college that is very badly run. In fact, it would probably put people off - people wont attend a IT/University if its going to be more stressful then its worth. It has a knock on affect on each point you just made. That's just the admin side of things, I could call into question other points also such as teaching quality and facilities.
    C'mon folks, can't ye see the benefit to Waterford and to ye're selves if WIT got proper research funding and started attracting international researchers??

    Possibly, but the point being made is: If WIT was upgrade as badly run as it is now, would it be far worse and turn more people away? Should it be upgraded if its not going to make the problem go away?
    The focus on timetables etc.. is really cutting off ye're nose to spite your face.

    Timetables isn't really the problem, but now that you say it - no timetables, means no lectures, means no lecturer, means no academic excellence. ;) But thats on a large scale. For most, it only takes like 4/5 weeks before it gets sorted. After that, its only the odd problem if any. But, thats just one minor issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 johnnyq


    Sully wrote: »
    Its very stressful for students in a college that is very badly run. In fact, it would probably put people off - people wont attend a IT/University if its going to be more stressful then its worth. It has a knock on affect on each point you just made. That's just the admin side of things, I could call into question other points also such as teaching quality and facilities.



    Possibly, but the point being made is: If WIT was upgrade as badly run as it is now, would it be far worse and turn more people away? Should it be upgraded if its not going to make the problem go away?



    Timetables isn't really the problem, but now that you say it - no timetables, means no lectures, means no lecturer, means no academic excellence. ;) But thats on a large scale. For most, it only takes like 4/5 weeks before it gets sorted. After that, its only the odd problem if any. But, thats just one minor issue.
    How badly is WIT run?
    Rat Infested?
    No electricity?
    Every room is double booked?

    Is it really that 'stressful'?

    All of what I've read on this thread would be solved by an increase in funding that uni status would bring.

    If anything, maintaining IT status will make the problems you elude to even worse because of budget cutbacks.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    johnnyq wrote: »
    How badly is WIT run?
    Rat Infested?
    No electricity?
    Every room is double booked?

    Is it really that 'stressful'?

    WIT couldnt run if either of the above were happening (bar the last one, which is common enough). But, I do laugh at the building work going on in one building. The dust in the building and noise is pretty bad, yet the building has classes and students walking in such an unhealthy enviroment. Ill list a few of the more basic problems, as I dont want to go into to much detail on individuals problems.

    - We are nearly 4 weeks into college and I have heard students complain about no timetables at all resulting in no lecturers. Luckily, this hasnt happened in my course over the last few years (bar one subject, where I had to go the registrar to get a lecturer assigned.) but others have been affected by it. Including 4th years in one course.

    - Others have had lecturers not showing up, and I have heard about lecturers attending only a few hours and then heading home. Others go to class for a half an hour, and leaving class early. Others showing up, class numbers low, so cancelling class. Lecturers ignoring emails, not having an email, not having an office, not being contactable by the department head. Supplying students the wrong information on whats coming up in their exam etc.

    - We heard hear, and from speaking to 1st years, they knew nothing about registration or induction until very late.

    - One 3rd year student returned to college to find *all* data on him has been lost.

    - Rooms double booked, to many students for a room, computers not working, computers being very slow.

    - Timetable clashes including in exam situations.

    - 3rd years returning to college to find that WIT has not contacted the places they are due to go on work experience in that week, to find out they will not have a full week of work experience but must return to college every friday for class.

    - Lecturers teaching a subject they dont know very well themselves (some can only explain whats on a slide, and nothing else).

    - Lack of communication between staff and students, college departments and staff/students.

    Christ theres far more basic ones, and these all happen on such a regular basis that its a pain for a student to try and get resolved. You would expect to go into WIT to be educated straight away (€900 registration, excl. fees for those repeating) without problems (or minor, not so common) rather then having an up hill battle trying to get things sorted.
    All of what I've read on this thread would be solved by an increase in funding that uni status would bring.

    If anything, maintaining IT status will make the problems you elude to even worse because of budget cutbacks.

    Well, thats the question being asked: WILL it solve it, or would it make it even worse? Id imagine cutbacks will affect Universities also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 641 johnnyq


    Assigning one administrator to look after each problem you listed there would cost
    c.30000*10 = 300,000 a year. That's it.

    300,000 vs millions for WIT and the local economy.

    University = More Funding. End of.

    How will more funding make the problems you listed worse?

    How do you expect the problems you listed to be solved, when you want to restrict WIT getting more funding? It baffles me?

    Your preference atm is Waterford IT = Tralee IT over silly technicalities.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Assigning one administrator to look after each problem you listed there would cost
    c.30000*10 = 300,000 a year. That's it.

    300,000 vs millions for WIT and the local economy.

    University = More Funding. End of.

    I don't think lack of funding is a problem at the moment (well, not a major thorn in the side at least). I would think that the foundations of a college should be operating first ("University Like"?!). Then again, that's just your average joe-so view of how things are decided.

    I think its known that Universities are finding it tough as it is, which is one reason why don't want WIT upgraded.
    How will more funding make the problems you listed worse?

    How do you expect the problems you listed to be solved, when you want to restrict WIT getting more funding? It baffles me

    At the moment, WIT are claiming they are "University Like". The way the college is running, is not really like a university at all. They have used the funding they have got over the years on other things, and have ignored a worsening problem in the core foundations of the college.

    I think a lot of students and parents who have been affected by the problems in WIT in one way or another, would feel that perhaps these problems should be overcome first before giving them University status. The question is, WILL they use the cash to sort out those problems or will they carry on building? There was talk about using the cash to draw in better lecturers in addition.

    I'm all for the idea of upgrading, as I think its a lot more then an IT at this stage. It offers a lot, but some of whats offered isn't reaching its full potential. Perhaps more money will allow to work on these, but if its been ignore up to now - it might be ignored in future also.

    I have heard staff (incl. lecturers) give out about the place and are shocked they are looking for university status.
    Your preference atm is Waterford IT = Tralee IT over silly technicalities.

    Where did I make that comparison?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,968 christophicus
    Registered User


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Assigning one administrator to look after each problem you listed there would cost
    c.30000*10 = 300,000 a year. That's it.

    300,000 vs millions for WIT and the local economy.

    University = More Funding. End of.

    How will more funding make the problems you listed worse?

    How do you expect the problems you listed to be solved, when you want to restrict WIT getting more funding? It baffles me?

    Your preference atm is Waterford IT = Tralee IT over silly technicalities.


    In all fairness just throwing money at problems does not mean they will be magically fixed ( See the Irish health services over the last 6/7 years ). The reason I am looking at admin in particular is because that is something that you should be able to improve without investing too much money in it, so its something that the college should be able to sort out before becoming a University, at least to a certain extent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭ Dr. Baltar
    Registered User


    I am currently in UL and I'm here because my course wasn't offered in WIT.
    The amount of money that my parents are paying weekly to keep me up here is pretty ridiculous to say the least.

    Coming from a financial point of view and nothing else, I do believe that WIT should be aiming for University status because I think it's unfair that there is a University located in every part of the country with the exception of the South-East.

    We are the only people that are forced to spend a lot of money to go to University and that, I think, is definately most unfair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭ robtri
    Registered User


    I am currently in UL and I'm here because my course wasn't offered in WIT.
    The amount of money that my parents are paying weekly to keep me up here is pretty ridiculous to say the least.

    Coming from a financial point of view and nothing else, I do believe that WIT should be aiming for University status because I think it's unfair that there is a University located in every part of the country with the exception of the South-East.

    We are the only people that are forced to spend a lot of money to go to University and that, I think, is definately most unfair.

    New at what a university compared to an IT is... but are you saying that if WIT became an University it would start to offer all these new course straight away??? how can it do that? rooms, space, lectuers, professors?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,126 Psychedelic
    Registered User


    A decision on the upgrade to WIT will be made within the next couple of weeks:
    Decision expected on Waterford’s long-running bid for university status

    By Conor Kane
    WATERFORD Institute of Technology’s application for university status is likely to be decided upon by the Government in the coming weeks.

    But Education Minister Batt O’Keeffe has warned the application raised “significant issues” regarding third-level policy and the roles played by universities and institutes of technology.

    The matter was raised in the Dáil by Labour party TD Brian O’Shea. He asked for an update on Waterford’s long-running bid to be re-designated as the University of the South-East.

    Full article here: http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=73644-qqqx=1.asp


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  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,039 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully
    Moderator


    By reading between the lines im not sure but it doesnt sound to good for WIT...


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