M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

irishfeen

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Read in the paper (Irish Times I think) that if they gave the go-ahead to the M20 today it would take ten years before it was opened despite it having been ready to go for planning permission in 2011.

If true, this is a monumental condemnation on out current environmental/planning/procurement systems.

We're going to be able compete with Asia by 2020? :mad:

Ha you have to remember, we are now in 2015 and the only place funding will be announced in in budget 2016 at the end of the year... so realistically tendering and signing PPP contracts and the construction of the motorway in 4 years (16-20) would actually be good going.

Pete_Cavan

I cant see a PPP for the M20 getting off the ground any time soon. Apart from the road PPPs already committed to, soon to be entered into PPPs are for the delivery of primary care centres, two DIT Grangegorman buildings, schools, Garda station and courthouses so this project is a long way down the peaking order. Could be a long time before the NDFA get round to looking at this.

Given how cheap government bonds are now, it is possibly cheaper now to sell long term bonds, if even only to deliver the project in phases. Had the planning process been completed, it would be quite easy to get a couple of hundred million to build the M20 from Cork to north of Mallow. Not sure what the situation with EU funding is but some would certainly help.

Just get planning approval for the M20, then decisions can be made on procurement.

dubhthach

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Read in the paper (Irish Times I think) that if they gave the go-ahead to the M20 today it would take ten years before it was opened despite it having been ready to go for planning permission in 2011.

If true, this is a monumental condemnation on out current environmental/planning/procurement systems.

We're going to be able compete with Asia by 2020? :mad:

Article can be read here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/sean-sherlock-restates-case-for-upgrading-cork-limerick-road-to-motorway-1.2094802

Key comment comes from Seán O'Neill of the NRA

Sean O’Neill, of the National Roads Authority, explained a plan was submitted to An Bord Pleanála in 2010 following public consultation in 2008 and 2009.
An oral hearing was held in July 2010, but the plan was withdrawn from An Bord Pleanála in 2011 on the instructions of Mr Varadkar. The project remains frozen.
“It’s likely to take up to four years to proceed through the design and planning process and get consent to the scheme from An Bord Pleanála as the scheme will need to be reassessed . . . and require a full reassessment of the environmental impact.
“It will then take at least another four years to tender, procure and construct. If we were told tomorrow to go and build it you are looking at the better part of 10 years for it to be delivered,” Mr O’Neill said.

KCAccidental

disgraceful

mrsoundie

KCAccidental wrote: »

disgraceful

One of the more gentler adjectives that could be used for this situation. Myself on the other hand would have gone for this

mrsoundie

In fact while thinking about that road, we should all be driving on a motorway glancing carefully to the side of the road, where there is a stone monument/ thing to celebrate the opening of the motorway. And to which we all recall, with nostalgia, that we had to traipse through the dusty little towns and hamlets of Limerick and Cork Counties.

Missyelliot2

mrsoundie wrote: »

In fact while thinking about that road, we should all be driving on a motorway glancing carefully to the side of the road, where there is a stone monument/ thing to celebrate the opening of the motorway. And to which we all recall, with nostalgia, that we had to traipse through the dusty little towns and hamlets of Limerick and Cork Counties.

Sounds like we'll be traipsing through Buttevant for many eons to come

mrsoundie

Missyelliot2 wrote: »

Sounds like we'll be traipsing through Buttevant for many eons to come

Down with that sort of thing.

jank

It mentions that the route would have to be reassessed and redesigned. Why?
Was there not a design already chosen? Does the route have to start again from scratch?

marno21

I thought some CPO's had already been done for this project a few years back.

Recently, I decided to try an alternative route for the complete Cork - Limerick journey, and tried M8 -> R513 -> N24. Much better trip and also landed me directly into Castletroy.

No use for me going home at the weekends so there's no other choice than N20 to Charleville. If only the N21 had an Adare bypass...

mydiscworld

jank wrote: »

It mentions that the route would have to be reassessed and redesigned. Why?
Was there not a design already chosen? Does the route have to start again from scratch?

If they don't make any changes to the last route, I'm suprised they need to go through the whole process again.

Makes an even bigger case to start the process up again now and have it shovel ready in 4 years when there's more money

littlemac1980

mydiscworld wrote: »

If they don't make any changes to the last route, I'm suprised they need to go through the whole process again.

Makes an even bigger case to start the process up again now and have it shovel ready in 4 years when there's more money

I expect the reason for starting afresh (even though all the work had been completed previously - including the Planning Oral Hearing) is that it ensures that the NRA and their consultants will get another €100m+ sent their way.

Of course they'll say its necessary to reassess route viability etc.

Jhcx

Absolute horses. politicians would certainly make a peaceful man loose his temper. Can the people argue a case that the current design is adequate and what changes are so necessary that it needs replanning

antoobrien

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Of course they'll say its necessary to reassess route viability etc.

Route selection is 6 years old and since the rejection of the Adare Bypass route they'll have to rethink the design of at lest the Northern section.

Chris_5339762

CPOs were never done either, the Government said at the time they couldn't afford them, so it got shelved.

Leonard Hofstadter

Regardless of the political motivations behind it, it is good to at least hear one Cork based Minister talking about this all important road once again. I don't think it can be emphasised enough to anyone who doesn't have the misfortune of using this road just how bad it is considering it's the main road between the two biggest cities after Dublin.

With that in mind, it's a disgrace to hear that potentially in 2025, we'll still be driving on this hell-hole of a road. I know these things take time, but at the very least the Transport Minister should commit to putting this back on the agenda. I'm just hoping that they'll surely make some sort of announcement to get the ball rolling before the next election so at least this whole thing can be started all over again.

Goofy

It doesn't need to be redesigned...... It was never designed in the first place. The route was selected and that is as far as it went. The actual detailed design doesn't happen until after that.

The eis would definitely have to be reevaluated as a lot could have changed in the last 6 years

Schadenfreudia

Goofy wrote: »

The eis would definitely have to be reevaluated as a lot could have changed in the last 6 years

If I may be a tad cynical, the main thing that has changed is that we've run out of cash - and re-starting a 10-year process is a brilliant (stroke) to keep Cork/Limerick onside while not actually building the road.

mydiscworld

Any idea how long the average delays are at Buttevant under the stop/go currently in place for resurfacing?

AA says it's going to be there until September. 7 months to resurface a small section of national road!

http://www.theaa.ie/AA/AA-Roadwatch/Story.aspx?id=71013

RikkFlair

mydiscworld wrote: »

Any idea how long the average delays are at Buttevant under the stop/go currently in place for resurfacing?

AA says it's going to be there until September. 7 months to resurface a small section of national road!

http://www.theaa.ie/AA/AA-Roadwatch/Story.aspx?id=71013

Got held up for about 10 mins last week travelling through towards Cork, a little after 5pm. Passing through yesterday at same time, got through a lot quicker, only a few minutes hold up. All depends what time you get there I guess.

kub

mydiscworld wrote: »

Any idea how long the average delays are at Buttevant under the stop/go currently in place for resurfacing?

AA says it's going to be there until September. 7 months to resurface a small section of national road!

http://www.theaa.ie/AA/AA-Roadwatch/Story.aspx?id=71013

The county council must have their own crews working on it in that case.

neddynasty

mydiscworld wrote: »

7 months to resurface a small section of national road!

Not just a small section of road. They're redoing the footpaths and parking areas etc. The full streetscape is getting an overhaul.

Schadenfreudia

neddynasty wrote: »

Not just a small section of road. They're redoing the footpaths and parking areas etc. The full streetscape is getting an overhaul.

I hope they are burying the overhead wires...nothing defaces Irish town main-streets more.

I remember when Abbeyleix was still on the Dublin-Cork road, upgrade work caused chaos for about 6 months - the result was great in the end.

Sheldons Brain

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I hope they are burying the overhead wires...nothing defaces Irish town main-streets more.
.

I couldn't agree more. Some councils are proactive about this, but others are a disgrace, they widen roads rebuild footpaths etc and do not take the opportunity to underground the services when the marginal cost would be negligible.

Vanquished

mydiscworld wrote: »

Any idea how long the average delays are at Buttevant under the stop/go currently in place for resurfacing?

AA says it's going to be there until September. 7 months to resurface a small section of national road!

http://www.theaa.ie/AA/AA-Roadwatch/Story.aspx?id=71013

It's far more than that. The project involves a complete excavation and reconstruction of the road and footpaths along with the undergrounding of all services and utilities and the provision of new street lighting. Hardly an insignificant undertaking!

Schadenfreudia

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. Some councils are proactive about this, but others are a disgrace, they widen roads rebuild footpaths etc and do not take the opportunity to underground the services when the marginal cost would be negligible.

Absolutely. My own local council (Dun Laoghaire) is terrible in this regard.

Sorry for going off-topic...maybe start a "bury the f*****g wires" thread?

Missyelliot2

Vanquished wrote: »

It's far more than that. The project involves a complete excavation and reconstruction of the road and footpaths along with the undergrounding of all services and utilities and the provision of new street lighting. Hardly an insignificant undertaking!

Great for the residents of Buttevant, and long overdue....still doesn't really improve the road from Cork to Limerick one iota.

moyners

Yet another really awful accident on this joke of a "national primary route"

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/five-hospitalised-one-critical-after-multi-vehicle-crash-312995.html

Frog Song

moyners wrote: »

Yet another really awful accident on this joke of a "national primary route"

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/five-hospitalised-one-critical-after-multi-vehicle-crash-312995.html

I live 5 minutes from Rathduff yet go a longer route to get to Cork, I hate that road. I hope everyone involved in that accident recovers. It feels like it's cursed at this stage.

irishfeen

Absolutely ridiculous at this stage that between Cork and Mallow in 2015 traffic has to cut across two lanes of traffic at numerous locations along the route.. When we are going to Cork we have to cut across traffic either at the Dromahane or Stag t-junction .. In the mornings you could wait 20min to cross, I've often seen people take that extra risk to cross as they have been waiting so long.