M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cork Trucker

From today's echo

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Timeframe-needed-for-the-M20-motorway-c4c238e2-4d7b-490d-8a10-37092eb1ef60-ds

THE Government has been urged to commit to a definitive timeframe on the Cork to Limerick motorway after Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) declined to say if it will be delivered by 2027.

Kermit.de.frog

I hate to break the news but while Fine Gael govts tend to be the most competent and restrained financially this also means they have never been at the forefront of infrastructure delivery in Ireland.

I said in the metrolink thread that has the hallmarks of a scheme that will be delayed until it is never even started.

Same with this.

I don't foresee this particular government delivering these schemes.

Hope i'm wrong.

marno21

Meanwhile the leader of the opposition speaks at gatherings of business leaders calling for improved infrastructure in Cork and follows that up by attending a dinner fundraiser trying to block the most important scheme in Cork

Not a great choice there to be honest. Quite depressing

Meanwhile the N20 continues to be a national embarrassment for a wide range of reasons

Kermit.de.frog

Ask yourself - would the port tunnel have been built under a Fine Gael government?

I think we all know the answer.

Fine Gael happy to have the projects out there to keep voters content but in terms of hard cash they have zero intention of splashing this type of cash on infrastructure.

They'll do the small stuff that will get us by no problem.

It's against their whole conservative economic philosophy.

hans aus dtschl

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I hate to break the news but while Fine Gael govts tend to be the most competent and restrained financially this also means they have never been at the forefront of infrastructure delivery in Ireland.

I said in the metrolink thread that has the hallmarks of a scheme that will be delayed until it is never even started.

Same with this.

I don't foresee this particular government delivering these schemes.

Hope i'm wrong.

Bearing in mind that next year will likely be an election year, I expect much sod-turning and grandiose announcements in the Cork area, followed up by a full election cycle of no delivery.

Isambard

I'll be almost too old to drive by 2027. Given the disruption when it does start building, I think I'll oppose it's building on selfish grounds.

marno21

Article on this from de paper: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/people-fed-up-of-cork-limerick-motorway-delays-882411.html

I don't like this headline because if they are really fed up about it, it's about time it was made into a proper political issue. The lack of M20 is the one major problem in this area and people are reluctant to make noise about it because "sure it won't be built anyway". It's about time this infinite loop was stopped and it became an issue. The improvement it would make to Charleville, Mallow, Buttevant and their hinterlands and the quality of life for all involved cannot be understated. It would significantly improve the attractiveness of businesses & retail and living in these areas due to reduced congestion and improved access.

There is an election coming up and it may be worth your while telling like minded people who agree about the need for the M20 to let the people calling to the door know. If enough people start making a racket about this issue and reflect how much of an issue it actually is, these guys might start to get the message.

Bazzer007

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/345940/project-delivery-team-appointed-on-limerick-to-cork-motorway.html

Copper_pipe

https://twitter.com/CorkSafetyAlert/status/1059721309976969216

Cork Trucker

Bazzer007 wrote: »

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/345940/project-delivery-team-appointed-on-limerick-to-cork-motorway.html

All well and good until the next recession comes along and knocks the project back 10 years again.

jgbyr

From AA Road watch 7.05pm
"Gardaí continue to deal with the crash on the N20 north of O’Rourke’s Cross. Traffic is very heavy approach to the incident from both sides"

Isambard

jgbyr wrote: »

From AA Road watch 7.05pm
"Gardaí continue to deal with the crash on the N20 north of O’Rourke’s Cross. Traffic is very heavy approach to the incident from both sides"

came through an hour ago, no problems.

Copper_pipe

https://twitter.com/CorkSafetyAlert/status/1061907516748107777

niloc1951

Could someone explain why the option of connecting Cork to Limerick by motorway via the M8 (Mitchelstown area) and the N24 (Caherconlish area) is not in favour.
Such a route would only require the building of about 45km of motorway, half the length of the proposed N20 route. On the face of it, if its half the length it would appear to be deliverable for half the cost and in half the time.

Cookiemunster

niloc1951 wrote: »

Could someone explain why the option of connecting Cork to Limerick by motorway via the M8 (Mitchelstown area) and the N24 (Caherconlish area) is not in favour.
Such a route would only require the building of about 45km of motorway, half the length of the proposed N20 route. On the face of it, if its half the length it would appear to be deliverable for half the cost and in half the time.

It's been explained many, many times. In essence, the N20 from Mallow to Cork needs to be dualed with or without the rest of the M20 (and probably from Croom to the current M20 at Patrickswell) and Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville still need to be bypassed. A route via the N24 to Mitchelstown will remove very little of the traffic that currently uses the N20 and will still leave all the above needing to be done.

Aontachtoir

niloc1951 wrote: »

Could someone explain why the option of connecting Cork to Limerick by motorway via the M8 (Mitchelstown area) and the N24 (Caherconlish area) is not in favour.
Such a route would only require the building of about 45km of motorway, half the length of the proposed N20 route. On the face of it, if its half the length it would appear to be deliverable for half the cost and in half the time.

Good question.

First of all, for safety reasons alone, the existing N20 must be upgraded, so significant amounts of construction already have to take place. If construction has to take place, it should be future-proofed. For the volume of traffic passing between Cork and Limerick each day, this is HQDC or motorway.

Secondly, there are several large towns along the N20, such as Mallow and Charleville, which are crying out for better road connections to Cork and Limerick. Passing the motorway through sparsely-inhabited, hilly farmland does not help the people living along the N20.

Thirdly, upgrading the N20 is does not just benefit traffic going from Cork to Limerick with no stops in between. It is a boon to locals and businesses which need to travel between any two points in north County Cork or south County Limerick. Upgrading the N24 instead offers no such benefits.

Fourthly, diverting the motorway via Mitchelstown would essentially eliminate any time savings to people travelling from Cork to Limerick, and would add an extra 30 km to the route (from 94 km via the N20 to 124 km via Mitchelstown). This would also increase pollution, fuel costs, and vehicle wear and tear, so people travelling from Cork to Limerick would still be incentivised to use the old, overcrowded N20.

In short, the N20 is a busy, important, old road that desperately needs an upgrade, regardless of what else happens in the region. The only upgrade that is future-proof is the M20. Build whatever you want via Mitchelstown. You'll still need to build the M20.

JupiterKid

What really worries me about the lengthy delays to getting the M20 underway and the other badly needed road projects is that post Brexit and by the early 2020s we could be in another serious economic downswing and these projects could be mothballed again. That would be a complete disaster.

Road building and other critical infrastructure projects are pro-cyclical in Ireland and this is just all wrong and short sighted. In lean times, a rainy day fund should be available to build critical infrastructure when land and labour costs are lower so that there are in place for, and indeed are an enabling factor, in an upturn.

Thinking of starting a new thread on this...

JCX BXC

niloc1951 wrote: »

Could someone explain why the option of connecting Cork to Limerick by motorway via the M8 (Mitchelstown area) and the N24 (Caherconlish area) is not in favour.
Such a route would only require the building of about 45km of motorway, half the length of the proposed N20 route. On the face of it, if its half the length it would appear to be deliverable for half the cost and in half the time.

While it's half the cost/time/length, it's a longer drive, we see this doesn't work (eg Galway-Tuam, too long a drive, people still use old road), and in reality serves very few. So it can be half the cost/time/length, but it will be far less than half as useful as a proper M20.

tweek84

niloc1951 wrote: »

Could someone explain why the option of connecting Cork to Limerick by motorway via the M8 (Mitchelstown area) and the N24 (Caherconlish area) is not in favour.
Such a route would only require the building of about 45km of motorway, half the length of the proposed N20 route. On the face of it, if its half the length it would appear to be deliverable for half the cost and in half the time.

Two words "Dunkettle Interchange" drops MIC

Isambard

we've already done this multiple times. The short answer is the M20 is the relief road for the dangerous N20. It is designed to serve the hinterland , not just end to end traffic and building it as suggested would leave a death trap road still in use by an inappropriate amount of traffic.

hans aus dtschl

There's a lack of political will to get this road done and we're going to hear a lot more about it in the next few months. Talk of routing via Mitchelstown will be one of a number of useful delay tactics when a new government is formed.

It would be great if there was a list of FAQ's somewhere about the M20 that could prevent these delay tactics from working. Other items on there could be:
- Why it needs to be motorway status rather than dual carriageway
- Why the M40 North comes into discussion at the same time as the M20
- Why a Limerick - Waterford motorway wouldn't be cheaper
etc

Sam Russell

niloc1951 wrote: »

Could someone explain why the option of connecting Cork to Limerick by motorway via the M8 (Mitchelstown area) and the N24 (Caherconlish area) is not in favour.
Such a route would only require the building of about 45km of motorway, half the length of the proposed N20 route. On the face of it, if its half the length it would appear to be deliverable for half the cost and in half the time.

Mod: This thread is about the M20, not possible routes using the M8. There is another thread for this topic.

Cookiemunster

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

There's a lack of political will to get this road done and we're going to hear a lot more about it in the next few months. Talk of routing via Mitchelstown will be one of a number of useful delay tactics when a new government is formed.

It would be great if there was a list of FAQ's somewhere about the M20 that could prevent these delay tactics from working. Other items on there could be:
- Why it needs to be motorway status rather than dual carriageway
- Why the M40 North comes into discussion at the same time as the M20
- Why a Limerick - Waterford motorway wouldn't be cheaper
etc

The Mid West National Roads Design Office in Limerick has a tender out for a design and development of the project and it has been allocated a budget of €10.7m to get it through this stage. The road is already underway. It won't go through Mitchelstown for all the above reasons and that fact that the NRA already did a constraints study for the old road ruling that route out.

hans aus dtschl

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The Mid West National Roads Design Office in Limerick has a tender out for a design and development of the project and it has been allocated a budget of €10.7m to get it through this stage. The road is already underway. It won't go through Mitchelstown for all the above reasons and that fact that the NRA already did a constraints study for the old road ruling that route out.

Have we been here before though?

Sam Russell

Mod: Off topic posts deleted. This thread is not the place for rants against the lack of political will to fund and progress infrastructure projects. Take them to the politics forum instead.

If a post is off topic, then so is a reply to it.

AugustusMinimus

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Off topic posts deleted. This thread is not the place for rants against the lack of political will to fund and progress infrastructure projects. Take them to the politics forum instead.

If a post is off topic, then so is a reply to it.

The charter on this forum clearly states

“Objections to, or support for, specific road projects”

I don’t understand how this doesn’t include political support. I don’t believe any of these posts are off topic.

Sam Russell

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The charter on this forum clearly states

“Objections to, or support for, specific road projects”

I don’t understand how this doesn’t include political support. I don’t believe any of these posts are off topic.

Mod:

Discussing mod decisions on thread is against the charter. Use PM instead.

If you wish to discuss the political elements of the M20, then open a new thread. This thread is about progress of the M20 as it relates to the proposal of a motorway between Cork and Limerick, not about the general progress of infrastructure projects in Ireland post the bank crash of 2008.

Do not reply to this post on thread or face a spell away - use PM instead.

Kevwoody

Sam Russell wrote:

If you wish to discuss the political elements of the M20, then open a new thread. This thread is about progress of the M20 as it relates to the proposal of a motorway between Cork and Limerick, not about the general progress of infrastructure projects in Ireland post the bank crash of 2008.

If that's the case, perhaps you could go back and clean up the M17/18 thread with all the off topic posts, especially the scutter about why the M20 should have been built before it.

Sam Russell

Kevwoody wrote: »

If that's the case, perhaps you could go back and clean up the M17/18 thread with all the off topic posts, especially the scutter about why the M20 should have been built before it.

Well, yes, that thread did go off topic with a discussion as to whether it should have been built further west, but it is built now so that question is moot. Topics do go off topic but it is difficult to stop them doing so because so many issues are intertwined.

It is valid that the M20, the subject of this thread, was a more urgent project that the M18/M17 given the relative sizes of the two ends of the route, and the amount of traffic that would benefit.

However, for whatever reason, the M20 is now in planning and the M18/M17 is built. Let us hope that the M20 is completed soon.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes, that thread did go off topic with a discussion as to whether it should have been built further west, but it is built now so that question is moot. Topics do go off topic but it is difficult to stop them doing so because so many issues are intertwined.

It is valid that the M20, the subject of this thread, was a more urgent project that the M18/M17 given the relative sizes of the two ends of the route, and the amount of traffic that would benefit.

However, for whatever reason, the M20 is now in planning and the M18/M17 is built. Let us hope that the M20 is completed soon.

I think it needs to be reiterated that it was never a case of M20 vs M17/M18

What's much more scandalous imo is that the cost of the first three years of the M20 is around €11m. Why was this not spent between 2015 and 2018 instead of 2018 and 2021? Why is the M20 not going to open for another 8 years when it could easily have started construction in 2019/20?