M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

JCX BXC

cjpm wrote: »

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Left in left out would be a good compromise until the M20 is built. Although it HAS TO HAVE a suitable acceleration and deacceleration lanes. Too many near misses with people pulling out.

Seems like a left in left out system with bollards preventing tools from pulling straight out would sort the major safety issues with this junction.

Limerick74

JCX BXC wrote: »

Seems like a left in left out system with bollards preventing tools from pulling straight out would sort the major safety issues with this junction.

Any bollard system (flexible) trying to prevent right turners is usually destroyed in a few months as witnessed many times on the roads. Not safe to put in kerbing or solid barriers. Left in is the only feasible alternative to closing the junction as left out causes issues for a number of reasons.

Isambard

cjpm wrote: »

In fairness to those people Cork Co Co pulled a fast one on them. Closing it temporarily for road works on the N20 and then announcing that its going to be permanent full closure. FFS. There a right and proper way of doing road closures and this certainly wasn't.

Left in left out would be a good compromise until the M20 is built. Although it HAS TO HAVE a suitable acceleration and deacceleration lanes. Too many near misses with people pulling out.

Cork has had a process of removing acceleration (and deceleration) lanes. Almost every junction now they are gone.

AugustusMinimus

Isambard wrote: »

Cork has had a process of removing acceleration (and deceleration) lanes. Almost every junction now they are gone.

Because that makes things safer.










Not.

sondagefaux

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How close to Cork will the mway actually get?

Very close. The short section of the N20 which currently consists of a high-quality dual-carriageway (and which could be redesignated to motorway) starts just outside the northern edge of the city.

From its southern terminus to the city centre is about 5km, with the intermediate road being mainly S4, two northbound lanes, two southbound lanes.

marno21

sondagefaux wrote: »

Very close. The short section of the N20 which currently consists of a high-quality dual-carriageway (and which could be redesignated to motorway) starts just outside the northern edge of the city.

From its southern terminus to the city centre is about 5km, with the intermediate road being mainly S4, two northbound lanes, two southbound lanes.

I would detrunk the N20 at the M40 junction and extend the N27 from the city centre out to the M20/N27/M40 junction at Kileens. Then you would have one high quality national route into the city and through the city centre along the quays.

I would detrunk the N8 and N22 inside the M40 in the same way the N71 was detrunked in 2012.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

I would detrunk the N20 at the M40 junction and extend the N27 from the city centre out to the M20/N27/M40 junction at Kileens. Then you would have one high quality national route into the city and through the city centre along the quays.

I would detrunk the N8 and N22 inside the M40 in the same way the N71 was detrunked in 2012.

to do that you would need to make alterations on the quays. I have long thought that the quays would make a splendid huge roundabout eliminating all the conflicting movements by making all turns on and off the quays left turn only.

Carawaystick

marno21 wrote: »

I would detrunk the N20 at the M40 junction and extend the N27 from the city centre out to the M20/N27/M40 junction at Kileens. Then you would have one high quality national route into the city and through the city centre along the quays.

I would detrunk the N8 and N22 inside the M40 in the same way the N71 was detrunked in 2012.

Through traffic should not be planned to be routed through a town, let alone Cork city

marno21

Carawaystick wrote: »

Through traffic should not be planned to be routed through a town, let alone Cork city

Not specifically to encourage through traffic but to designate one route into the city from the south and north for traffic. The N27 and North City Link would be very high standard compared to similar routes in the arae

AugustusMinimus

I see more than 600 people have signed a petition to protest the closure of the Waterloo junction. Overall, I don’t blame them.

Closing the junction is quite a blunt action when reducing the limit and traffick calming alone would result in a major improvement.

Isambard

certainly measures could be taken to make the junction much safer in the short (we hope) period before the M20 is built. Closure is draconian.

mydiscworld

When are we expecting to see a preferred route?

Wonder will there be numerous options given or will they just update the preferred route chosen from last time

Cork Trucker

mydiscworld wrote: »

When are we expecting to see a preferred route?

Wonder will there be numerous options given or will they just update the preferred route chosen from last time

I think it's the same route, although I do recall some issue, either then or now, about an exit junction for Buttevant.

neddynasty

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I think it's the same route, although I do recall some issue, either then or now, about an exit junction for Buttevant.

I've had many a dream where they've leveled Buttevant and put the motorway there instead. I woke up smiling.

D Trent

Was the route ever to go through Ballybeg quarry or could that come back into use as a quarry ?

marno21

mydiscworld wrote: »

When are we expecting to see a preferred route?

Wonder will there be numerous options given or will they just update the preferred route chosen from last time

They are starting the route selection process from start and all route options will be considered. However, I would imagine the route chosen this time will be similar because if it had the most merit 10 years ago I'm not sure what's going to change in the meantime

Isambard

D Trent wrote: »

Was the route ever to go through Ballybeg quarry or could that come back into use as a quarry ?

Many years ago I was told the quarry was to be used as a road route. I don't think the M20 is or was planned that way though

marno21

Brown tourist signage has been erected at the Waterloo junction southbound with a straight ahead arrow and (R617) Blarney Castle written on it.

That would have been a better way to start with the junction than a total closure.

highwaymaniac

marno21 wrote: »

Brown tourist signage has been erected at the Waterloo junction southbound with a straight ahead arrow and (R617) Blarney Castle written on it.

That would have been a better way to start with the junction than a total closure.

Absolutely should have been erected a lot sooner too. Also a right turn sign saying local access only would also help. I am surprised at the lack of dieectional guidance on the blarney castle website. Not too hard to put up a Google maps directional link.
https://blarneycastle.ie/pages/plan-your-visit


The decision to close it or not rests with the local councillors of the municipal district. They are qouted as saying that they will not approve the closure so common sense has prevailed.

If you were to close this junction then you would have to close a lot more if you applied the same reasoning. The next junction further north - the turn off for grenagh has also had a couple of fatalities in recent years unfortunately. Also for example there are still two right turns permitted across the eastbound N25 between Carrigtohill and Midleton which is dual carriageway. If crossing one lane of traffic is so dangerous then surely two is more so?

Maybe this isn't a factor at all but I wonder if the tourists involved were driving a car with manual or automatic transmission. There is good visibility at the junction so maybe they missed judged the speed of oncoming traffic or stalled/ turned in too high a gear.

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

Brown tourist signage has been erected at the Waterloo junction southbound with a straight ahead arrow and (R617) Blarney Castle written on it.

That would have been a better way to start with the junction than a total closure.

Have all the sat nav providers been contacted to update their systems to avoid the junction for future reference?

I haven't been out the Mallow Road now in a few weeks so haven't seen the signage, is it on a large scale as was previously proposed?


Closing the junction entirely was a mistake and I think Cork County Council now realise that, blocking off the right hand turn coming off/going onto the N20 is more feasible I would think?

Cork Trucker

highwaymaniac wrote: »

Absolutely should have been erected a lot sooner too. Also a right turn sign saying local access only would also help. I am surprised at the lack of dieectional guidance on the blarney castle website. Not too hard to put up a Google maps directional link.
https://blarneycastle.ie/pages/plan-your-visit


The decision to close it or not rests with the local councillors of the municipal district. They are qouted as saying that they will not approve the closure so common sense has prevailed.

If you were to close this junction then you would have to close a lot more if you applied the same reasoning. The next junction further north - the turn off for grenagh has also had a couple of fatalities in recent years unfortunately. Also for example there are still two right turns permitted across the eastbound N25 between Carrigtohill and Midleton which is dual carriageway. If crossing one lane of traffic is so dangerous then surely two is more so?

Maybe this isn't a factor at all but I wonder if the tourists involved were driving a car with manual or automatic transmission. There is good visibility at the junction so maybe they missed judged the speed of oncoming traffic or stalled/ turned in too high a gear.

Bob Ryan of GAA circles but also a local councillor said he is opposed to it as are the other local councillors, and it isn't a vote gathering exercise on his behalf, how true that is, no one knows.

As for the manual/Auto box, I know a first responder who attended the scene of one of those accidents, from what he told me, and I don't know where he got the information, the car pulled out of the junction and allegedly stalled in the middle of the road, again I don't know how true that is but it would tie in with the belief they aren't used to manual transmission cars. I met a couple from Tennessee in Mahon during the summer who were going to Rosscarbery and they told me that 'stick shift is hell to drive'

I don't know how many manual cars are made for the American market but that's for another thread.

donal.hunt

Appreciate the comments and observations regarding the Waterloo closure...

There is a lot of work going on in the background by members of the community and the local councillors. The councillors are distinctly unhappy because they were not informed of any proposal by the roads department before the road was closed. This breaks protocol and procedure.

Updates are being posted to the Waterloo Access Group facebook group if anyone wants more regular updates.

Observations and impact statements from anyone here are also welcome. Feel free to PM me if you want details of the public consultation that is in progress.

Kevwoody

Had a look at the Facebook page.
They are also totally against a left in - left out option. And are bizarrely wondering where the merging lanes have gone?!!
Does anyone using that junction know what a Stop sign means? The hard shoulder is NOT a merging lane!

Also, the original plan was to install the new brown tourist sign above the Waterloo Advance Directional Sign. That was then changed to a new much larger sign. However when a TII Contractor went to install the new sign, the junction was closed and roadworks were ongoing.

marno21

Kevwoody wrote: »

Had a look at the Facebook page.
They are also totally against a left in - left out option. And are bizarrely wondering where the merging lanes have gone?!!
Does anyone using that junction know what a Stop sign means? The hard shoulder is NOT a merging lane!

Also, the original plan was to install the new brown tourist sign above the Waterloo Advance Directional Sign. That was then changed to a new much larger sign. However when a TII Contractor went to install the new sign, the junction was closed and roadworks were ongoing.

A LILO junction is of no use to local residents. They require a LIRO junction. The Waterloo -> Whitechurch movement requires a right turn from the Waterloo Link Road to the N20.

There are a few solutions here:

1. Close the junction. This affects locals quite a lot and this is seen in the protests.
2. A LILO junction. This affects locals half as much, they can complete the Whitechurch -> Waterloo movement but not the opposite movement.
3. Ban right turns from the N20 southbound to the Waterloo Road. Retain right turn from Waterloo to the N20: I would be in favour of this option. Ban the primary cause of these accidents, which is traffic using assisted navigation using the Waterloo turn off to access Blarney from the Mallow side. The reverse movement will not be an issue as it would be a left turn. This setup retains local access, until the M20 finally puts this issue to bed.

The simple solution here would have been if Cork County Council had bridged this road in the late 80s when it was being built, as they did with the Station Road in Blarney.

Isambard

in my experience the right turn out is a big problem too. a lilo would mean Whitechurch bound traffic could turn at the next junction which isn't far and would avoid the real problem in the current situation where they have to go via the Blarney turn or via a very substandard lane to the picnic area turn.This turn, the next one North, actually feeds right into School Rd Whitechurch and doesn't seem to be a worse route than the old one used.

AugustusMinimus

The junction at the picnic area is just as dangerous. Why is that being left open while proposing to close this one.

If I were a resident I’d be fuming. Just drop the speed limit and introduce traffic calming at the junction.

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

A LILO junction is of no use to local residents. They require a LIRO junction. The Waterloo -> Whitechurch movement requires a right turn from the Waterloo Link Road to the N20.

There are a few solutions here:

1. Close the junction. This affects locals quite a lot and this is seen in the protests.
2. A LILO junction. This affects locals half as much, they can complete the Whitechurch -> Waterloo movement but not the opposite movement.
3. Ban right turns from the N20 southbound to the Waterloo Road. Retain right turn from Waterloo to the N20: I would be in favour of this option. Ban the primary cause of these accidents, which is traffic using assisted navigation using the Waterloo turn off to access Blarney from the Mallow side. The reverse movement will not be an issue as it would be a left turn. This setup retains local access, until the M20 finally puts this issue to bed.

The simple solution here would have been if Cork County Council had bridged this road in the late 80s when it was being built, as they did with the Station Road in Blarney.

I'd have reservations about the right turn from the Waterloo junction onto the N20, when it is quiet, which would be the dead of the night in most cases then maybe, but during the day it would not only be difficult but equally as dangerous as turning right from the N20 to the Waterloo junction itself.

I don't agree with the total closure of the junction either, but where is the compromise?

Leaving the junction as it was is too dangerous, leaving it as it currently is, is too inconvenient.

The bizarre thing about all of this as well is it isn't just tourists having trouble with the junction, foreign registered trucks have been known to venture down there on a rare occasion which is totally unsuitable.

As for the stop sign, it is there, or at least it was when I last used the junction. The hard shoulder is indeed used as a merging lane.

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The junction at the picnic area is just as dangerous. Why is that being left open while proposing to close this one.

If I were a resident I’d be fuming. Just drop the speed limit and introduce traffic calming at the junction.

The junction that takes one to Grenagh & Bweeng which is before you go up the hill to Rathduff?

Fatal accident there in recent years involving a minor.

neddynasty

Cork Trucker wrote: »

As for the stop sign, it is there, or at least it was when I last used the junction. The hard shoulder is indeed used as a merging lane.

If it's anyway busy then you have to use the hard shoulder as a merging lane or you'll never get out of the junction. Too dangerous to try to join the traffic from a standing start.

highwaymaniac

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The junction that takes one to Grenagh & Bweeng which is before you go up the hill to Rathduff?

Fatal accident there in recent years involving a minor.

Yes that's the one. There was another recent one involving a young woman. Turning right out of the junction heading for Cork.