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Goth Discussion

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    #62
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Every social grouping has arse holes and idiots, it's the way of the world.
    Now that being said I I found that over all the social scene in Dublin is more tolerant and open minded but more bitchy then other social groupings. But I was never one for saying you are not gtoh unless you are actively going to a club.

    Thats a pet peev of mine too. Who is anyone to decide whether anyone else is "good" enough to be part of a group.

    And yeah tere's plenty of idiot goths, but plenty of cool and imaginative ones too.


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    #63
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Goth is an alternative mainstream culture, not an alternative to mainstream culture.

    Based on some of the descriptions in this thread, I could describe myself as a goth, but I don't, and would disgree that I am a goth because I think outside the box alot, tend to be creative and don't really subscribe to popular culture. I don't see being a goth having anything to do with these things, in fact I can't see how it has to do with anything other than fashion and music taste. If it is a fact that there are more poets, film makers and generally creative people who are into such music and fashion (whcih I actually really doubt), this is purely incidental, and smacks of elitism when it is mentioned.


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    #64
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Goth is an alternative mainstream culture, not an alternative to mainstream culture.

    Based on some of the descriptions in this thread, I could describe myself as a goth, but I don't, and would disgree that I am a goth because I think outside the box alot, tend to be creative and don't really subscribe to popular culture. I don't see being a goth having anything to do with these things, in fact I can't see how it has to do with anything other than fashion and music taste. If it is a fact that there are more poets, film makers and generally creative people who are into such music and fashion (whcih I actually really doubt), this is purely incidental, and smacks of elitism when it is mentioned.

    Im not saying goths are automatically better than other people or anything like that, but it's definitely more than just fashion or music. There are goth communities all over the place. Google Whitby to find out more.


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    #65
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    SDooM wrote: »
    Im not saying goths are automatically better than other people or anything like that, but it's definitely more than just fashion or music. There are goth communities all over the place. Google Whitby to find out more.
    All Google tells me about Whitby is that there's a gothic festival on there, and it seems to be primarily focused towards music and fashion.

    Perhaps you could extend the definition to encompass one's taste in aesthetics and literature, but that's about it. I mean what else is there to it? There doesn't seem to be any definite ideology or philosophy behind it.


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    #66
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    All Google tells me about Whitby is that there's a gothic festival on there, and it seems to be primarily focused towards music and fashion.

    Perhaps you could extend the definition to encompass one's taste in aesthetics and literature, but that's about it. I mean what else is there to it? There doesn't seem to be any definite ideology or philosophy behind it.

    See therein lies the problem.

    It means something different to everyone.

    The definition which resonates with me is the the definition given by the American Gothic musician/writer/artist Voltaire, which is that Gothic culture should be a culture which embraces individuality, and being true to ones self. For example, many overweight people gravitate to gothic culture because in ideal it should reject body stereotypes. Thus the "fat goth" jokes being bandied around (including here on boards) are actually furthering the point of the people being ridiculed. Why would they not reject culture which treats them like that?

    Other people would say being goth is liking black clothes.


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    #67
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    SDooM wrote: »
    See therein lies the problem.

    It means something different to everyone.
    You see, I have a problem with definitions like this.

    You can hardly say goth has nothing to do with a certain style of music (or I suppose styles of music these days) and fashion.

    I don't see how it extends any deeper than that. Surely after that it's not about being a goth, but about being an individual.


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    #68
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    I know the definition is nebulous, but isn't that what the thread is about? What does Goth mean?

    Obviously it means something drastically different to me and you, but thats ok! There is no goth king anywhere, defining the term.

    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    You see, I have a problem with definitions like this.

    You can hardly say goth has nothing to do with a certain style of music (or I suppose styles of music these days) and fashion.

    I don't see how it extends any deeper than that. Surely after that it's not about being a goth, but about being an individual.

    I wouldnt say that at all. But its not just music and fashion, there's film, architecture, books, etc. I did the whitby thing myself, and that was about community to me.

    Do you know about the concept of inheritence in computer programming?

    Goth is a sub class of individualism, but definitely not the other way around.

    Sorry for using such an obscure reference but its what I know. :)


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    #69
    keepherlit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46 ✭keepherlit


    HI, i am not a goth and would probably have been considered more of a jock than anything else. I was reading the thread to see what peoples views are on goth culture etc.., If "goth" is a form of individualism then it cant be defined by a dress code, hair style, make up etc.., To many people, it is considered the group for mainstream social outcasts. that they fit in to a sub culture and are accepted for who they are individually, yet here in lies the problem, they are trying to conform to another sterotype. I appreciate that for the majority of goths it is a positive and progressive culture, but the "temple bar crowd" has tarred you, unfortunately, with a nasty brush. I am pro any culture/ sub culture that allows people to express themselves. It is an interesting culture and like any has its ar*eholes but from my brief encounters with the goth culture it is positive.


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    #70
    Will
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,183 ✭✭✭✭Will


    I agree with SDooM about the subclass comment, in a sense. And also agree with Karl Hungus regarding his comments about the subculture of intellectuals.

    Being a part of a social group brings security, whether it is mainstream, subculture or even on the cutting edge of it all. For what it's worth I think the whole gothic thing is mainstream now. Shops like the asha 'boutique' and others wouldn't be in existence otherwise.

    I've met, chatted with and drank with goths (and many other social groups). In my mind I just saw those individuals as people, nothing more, nothing less. Just because a person is gothic doesn't mean they are instantly deep thinkers, poets or bat sh!t crazy mo fo's. Each and every single person is different, you get d!cks and nice people everywhere.

    Personally couldn't give a rat's ass what anyone dresses like, it's how they act that makes me decide what I think of em.

    Me, I'm pierced and tattooed, maybe I could be classed as alternative looks wise, not sure, don't care. My old best mate, we were like chalk and cheese. He wore nike tracksuits, I wore slightly baggy jeans. To look at us you would never think we were best mates. Was a real headfúck for people... at the beginning. Even still, he was into heavy metal, I was into more relaxing tunes.

    You can't judge someone by how they dress. To me, it's just a style of clothing people are into nowadays. The old visigoth way of life has long been forgotten, in fact I would go far as to say they aren't even related. Modern day goths came about from the punk era.

    What being a goth means to you?
    Ha, it's not a lifestyle. It's just a way of dressing in my mind. A goth will do no differently to me or anyone else e.g in the morning.
    I get up,
    have a shower,
    get dressed,
    eat breakfast,
    go to work/college.

    Tbh OP I think you are just romanticising the idea of what being a goth is.
    They're just people, like you and me.


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    #71
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Heh, I study Computer Science, so don't worry about using parallels of that nature.
    SDooM wrote: »
    I wouldnt say that at all. But its not just music and fashion, there's film, architecture, books, etc. I did the whitby thing myself, and that was about community to me.

    Do you know about the concept of inheritence in computer programming?

    Goth is a sub class of individualism, but definitely not the other way around.
    So Goths are a bunch of people who have similar taste in music, fashion, literature, art etc. and who also embrace individualism?

    It just seems a bit silly to include the individualism part in the definition, if it's not something universal to all goths.

    I mean, you could say being a football player means something different to everyone, and one player might say that being a football player meant playing football and embracing individualism. But I would reject this. A football player is simply one who plays football. Just like a Goth is someone with a certain taste in music, fashion, literature etc. A Goth who embraces individualism is just that, not a Goth who's personal definition of "Goth" happens to encompass individualism.

    On a less cynical and pedantic note, I just put on some Switchblade Symphony after reading this thread. Love that band.


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    #72
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    If I was asked to name the one thing that I think unifies those who self describe as goth I would say it is a wonderful sense and enjoyment and appreciations of the morbid and the macabre. The acceptance of the darker themes to life and death.


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    #73
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Heh, I study Computer Science, so don't worry about using parallels of that nature.

    So Goths are a bunch of people who have similar taste in music, fashion, literature, art etc. and who also embrace individualism?

    It just seems a bit silly to include the individualism part in the definition, if it's not something universal to all goths.

    I mean, you could say being a football player means something different to everyone, and one player might say that being a football player meant playing football and embracing individualism. But I would reject this. A football player is simply one who plays football. Just like a Goth is someone with a certain taste in music, fashion, literature etc. A Goth who embraces individualism is just that, not a Goth who's personal definition of "Goth" happens to encompass individualism.

    On a less cynical and pedantic note, I just put on some Switchblade Symphony after reading this thread. Love that band.

    Depends what is the central concept... Again I bold the word should.

    Goths should be a sub group of individualists. Doesn't mean they actually are.

    So thaed, will I be seeing you at the horror festival? :)

    TBH I would not call myself a goth, I just waltz in and out of that particular part of the world, anyway. I've yet to see anyone on this thread actually call themself a goth, which is interesting in itself.


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    #74
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    If I was asked to name the one thing that I think unifies those who self describe as goth I would say it is a wonderful sense and enjoyment and appreciations of the morbid and the macabre. The acceptance of the darker themes to life and death.
    Best definition I think I've seen. Of course, there's more to it than that, such as the association of black and darkness with the morbid and macabre, but I think that would generally sum up its origins and core principles.


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    #75
    DenMan
    Registered Users Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭DenMan


    Hi Will

    Great response there. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. I just wanted to set this thread up to garner peoples feelings as to what it feels like for them personally to be a Goth. Everybody's interests and opinions are unique and different. It is human nature for people to want to be associated to a group/sub-culture. Even the most introvertive of people feel the need to be associated to a larger group, be it writers, poets, musicians etc. To automatically associate all Gothic people as being wonderful poets, writers, film makers etc would be wrong and assuming. If people are drawn to their darker psyche then it would manifest in how they portray themselves. Dress in darker clothes, read Gothic literature, listen to different music.

    It is an aspect of themselves that they choose to show on the outside what they are feeling on the inside. The older they get the less they feel the need to physically show it and it becomes less evident on the outside, however it remains with them, a maturity if you will. Most people do not show that side of themselves and choose to ignore it, instead Gothic people do and embrace it. It's a personal choice based on a sub-culture they know exists and want to be part of and as a result are joining a larger community within the mainstream community.

    I hope I have made some sense.


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    #76
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    DenMan wrote: »
    Even the most introvertive of people feel the need to be associated to a larger group
    Yup.

    If only I could find the right one.....


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    #77
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Yup.

    If only I could find the right one.....

    Looks around

    You're already there


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    #78
    DenMan
    Registered Users Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭DenMan


    As an example I wonder how many musicians, poets, writers etc are represented here on Boards. Quite a lot I would say. The interweb itself can be haven for so many people. Makes you think that's for sure.


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    #79
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    DenMan wrote: »
    As an example I wonder how many musicians, poets, writers etc are represented here on Boards. Quite a lot I would say. The interweb itself can be haven for so many people. Makes you think that's for sure.

    I always feel suspicious of poets. Like they write songs but are too lazy to finish them. :)


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    #80
    DenMan
    Registered Users Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭DenMan


    An inspiration thing Doomy. I have to admit I enjoy browsing the writing sections. People put up partial poems and ask for feedback. Nothing wrong with that, it is good for them to know they can get constructive feedback where otherwise they may not have access to. :)

    How is Madrid? And how is the Gothic scene over there? Have you had much of a chance to look around in your free time? Amazing architecture and very welcoming for the Gothic Community I believe.


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    #81
    Karl Hungus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭Karl Hungus


    Now, I'm about to go on in a rather famous fashion, for which I used to be known for, and I apologise in advance, because I've been drinking heavily, must've had about 12 pints of guinness tonight, and I doubt I'm the most coherent right now... However, I do feel compelled to reply, so if this leaves you scratching your head, wondering what the hell did I just say, apologies.

    Speaking from a purely anthropologistic viewpoint, the gothic subculture is the same as any other, a collection of people who hold similar interests. There's nothing unique about it in that respect, unless you hold interests that are aspired to by the gothic community. In which case it appears as special to you, and you feel enamoured by that aspect.

    Personally, it was the music that was the draw, and for many, many years, one of my favourite bands was Fields of the Nephilim:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gepNUSNTbT0


    I still listen to them often, and absolutely love the whole sound they pioneered, singer Carl McCoy is one of the greatest vocalists I've ever heard, and very few can come close.

    For other people, it's the fashion that's the draw, and while I think that very often the **** that passes for gothic music (EBM, Electrogoth) is just dance music for people who don't want to admit they like dance music, I still respect that. People take different things from the subcutlure, and get different things from it. You'll have people from all walks of life that can find an affinity with it, so it's almost as useless defining a specific subcutlure as you would any other.


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    #82
    Karl Hungus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭Karl Hungus


    Oh, lets have some more music in this thread...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ntvORezIQ4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvOHT0zfXY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYHmVELJLDg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNQ58zV-WkI


    Also, you can never have enough Type O Negative:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMZvKX06P5U


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    #83
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    SDooM wrote: »
    So thaed, will I be seeing you at the horror festival? :)

    Alas it clashes with Gealcon the 20th one. Vast and varied are the realms of my geekery.
    SDooM wrote: »
    I've yet to see anyone on this thread actually call themself a goth, which is interesting in itself.

    Eh hello. I have done my best to explain what I means to me, having been one for the last 15 years and yes I was a Curehead even before then.

    Have to say when you have the likes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Sciuto as char in mainstream tv it' not that underground.


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    #84
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Alas it clashes with Gealcon the 20th one. Vast and varied are the realms of my geekery.



    Eh hello. I have done my best to explain what I means to me, having been one for the last 15 years and yes I was a Curehead even before then.

    Have to say when you have the likes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Sciuto as char in mainstream tv it' not that underground.

    Damn that Gaelcon, many years have I cursed it leaving me to be fit in by my friends who'd rather play giant jenga (do they still do that?) then see old, crap horror films :(

    Sorry about missing the goth thing!

    Karl has a point though, we're gnashing on about something thats indefinable so why not start posting gothic thingamies rather than go on about that?


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    #85
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    SDooM wrote: »
    Damn that Gaelcon, many years have I cursed it leaving me to be fit in by my friends who'd rather play giant jenga (do they still do that?) then see old, crap horror films :(

    Thats leprecon not Gealcon which has the gaint Jenga.


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    #86
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Thats leprecon not Gealcon which has the gaint Jenga.

    They had Giant Jenga the first year Gaelcon was held in the executive suite in Croke Park... which was the last time I attended!


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    #87
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    SDooM wrote: »
    They had Giant Jenga the first year Gaelcon was held in the executive suite in Croke Park... which was the last time I attended!

    I missed that one that one had the lan at it.
    Hard to believe this year is the 20th one.


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    #88
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I missed that one that one had the lan at it.
    Hard to believe this year is the 20th one.

    Do they not have LANs anymore?


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    #89
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoSikq5y8yw


    :)


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    #90
    DenMan
    Registered Users Posts: 7,961 ✭✭✭DenMan


    Karl Hungus wrote: »
    I've been drinking heavily, must've had about 12 pints of guinness tonight

    Dude how the hell could you have drank 12 pints of Guinness, I salute you sir. I would never be able to that and more than likely would end up blind. Thanks for the response and the videos. I wholeheartedly support the showing of videos here as music is the essence to the soul.

    Here is one from a song I can't get out of my head at the moment, Kryperia and The Promise. Beautiful song and the keyboard at the start is amazing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHuXST9CAUg


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    #91
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    The most important rule of being a goff: If you call yourself a goth then you arent one :pac:


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