Was 911 an INSIDE JOB?

,8,1

Israeli Zionists are both paranoid and power-hungry. It's about absolute security and controlling the oil flow. Most of the essential ME pipelines pass through or terminate in Izzy: this is the way the US Government and Oil Corporations has worked it out. Out of rivers of blood in Iran and Iraq come rivers of oil flowing to Israel. Michael Moore didn't tell you that, did he?

Oil, though it is important for Israel from an economic and industrial point of view, is still secondary however. Control is the main ambition. Control for control's sake.

You've heard of the "disputed regions". Israel has repeatedly ignored UN and internationally agreed borderlines and has seeked to annex Palestinian lands. That is the expansionist element of Zionism. Up until now they have had to limit this expansionist drive, but with the post-9/11 reality of US bombs raining down all over Middle East; perhaps they will seek to gain substantially more landmass.

,8,1

Now if you take what you say is true, the FBI the US federal bureau of investigation doesn't think Bin Laden carried out the attacks, don't you think they'd be announcing other suspects? carrying out new investigations?

No they'd be covering it up because Bin Laden is a CIA asset on which the whole 9/11-Official™ house of cards rests. He's an essential element of the propaganda/mass deception effort.

conceited

Isreal this isreal that... Talk about milking..... Isreal is convenient is it?

,8,1

You mean... Like the Muslims? Like the "Islamist militants", as Sky News and other "neo-con" media sources say?

No, I mention Israel because it makes sense. Because there's political and economic justification for Israel being behind 9/11 and subsequent ME invasions. There is a paper record which goes back to the Clean Break document which I mentioned. There is the large number of dual-citizen Zionists in GWB's Administration, the fact that Israeli security firms held the contracts for the 9/11 airports, and Zionist Larry Silverstein of course holding the lease to the WTC buildings.

All of this ADDS UP. Unlike the CNN/White House story. Which is basically fear fear fear hate inducement and NO FACTS.

Nick_oliveri

What comes after the GWB Administration, if republicans win, is there dual citizens in the Mccain/Palin farce?

conceited

Have you ever considered the information freely available to you is perhaps,"not real" ?

,8,1

The full content of a McCain/Palin Administration would be revealed in due course if they were elected.

The two however are both hardcore committed Zionists.

Palin on Iraq:

"Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

(The 2003 invasion of this country was called for seven years earlier in Clean Break and is an essential element of Zionist military expansionism.)

Palin on Russia:

"We have got to keep an eye on Russia... When you are a NATO ally, if another country [Georgia] is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help."

(Russia serves as a serious obstacle to a future war against Iran, another essential plank of the Clean Break doctrine. US/Israel can move troops, planes and supplies in through Georgia, which neighbours Southern Russia. This is why they ordered puppet Saakashvili to invade South Ossetia: to push Russia back and make the Iranian offensive easier.)

Palin on Iran:

"I don't think we can second guess what Israel has to do to secure its nation."

(Israel is willing to bomb and invade Iran: we must follow suit. Completely in support of a future invasion.)

Palin on Israel:

"We are friends with Israel... Let there be no doubt: I will always keep the threat of military action on the table to defend our security and our ally Israel."

(All current and near-future Middle Eastern conflicts - along with demands for US interventionism - come from Israel. Allegiance to this aggressive, erratic State means a high likelihood of bloody invasions which show the same contempt for non-Israeli life as the Palestianians are shown daily.)

,8,1

Now onto the next neo-con Zionist douchebag, John McCain. He's a pure chameleon as far as social and immigration policy goes but on one issue he is constant: Israel First. American troops must die for this land.

McCain on Iraq:

"I don’t think Americans are concerned if we’re there for one hundred years or a thousand years or ten thousand years."

McCain on Russia:

"I condemn Russia's aggressive actions."

(Self-defence against Zionist Georgia now becomes an "aggressive action". The clear aggressor is seen as the victim. Truly Orwellian.)

McCain on Iran:

"A nuclear capability in Iran is unacceptable... The answer is not unconditional dialogues with these two dictatorships from a position of weakness. The answer is for the international community to apply real pressure to Syria and Iran to change their behavior. "

("A nuclear capability" in Iran also includes civilian nuclear power generation, which the IAEA approves of.)

McCain on Israel

"The state of Israel has never needed your support and your hopes and your prayers they way they need it today. And God bless you for your commitment... If we fail in Israel, where will we succeed?"

The net result is we should not expect any surprises in the policy decisions of these two Zionists compared to their predecessors. We should expect their Adminstration to be composed of the same dual-citizen Zionists that brought you the 2003 Iraq War.

Diogenes

foxhoundone wrote: »

highly trained military specialist.
all military guys are trained to a very high stanard..regardless of grade .

I would suspect that such military specialists would be trained to a degree that they can spell "standard". Foxandhoundone you are claiming to be a counter intelligence soldier who doesn't know the difference between a "comma" or a "apostrophe".

British army anti terrorism specialist would settle down in Northern Ireland,

Possibly if they had roots there, You're claiming to be a British anti terrorism specialist settling down in NI who either.

A) Never served here (because in your claims about your service record you never mention serving in NI) but hell you settled here.

An antiterrorism soldier might settle in NI but he certainly wouldn't advertise what suburb he lives in, what football team he supports, and his personal history. Either you're an idiot or someone with a death wish.

From the cold war era we snopped on the USSR, you know the iron curtain and all,..ed

Hang on now you're claiming to be military intelligence rather than anti terrorism unless you think the USSR was a terrorist organisation. Unless you think the USSR was a terrorist group.

Frankly a T-90S could drive a through the holes in your theory. And your claims.


And seriously you spell like a twelve year old, if you want to be taken as credible 16 y member of a specialist military unit, run a spell checker.

Diogenes

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

KSM "confessed" under torture. Im sure if they apprehended you and waterboarded you for a while you would sing like a bird to whatever bull**** lyrics they wanted. (bull**** or not)

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/13/070813fa_fact_mayer

So please, try not to push a confession obtained under torture as gospel. And why wouldnt Bin Laden claim responsibility? Im not saying he wasn't responsible, but it was his chance to be the face of western hate and he was already being hunted at the time of the tape. Either way he is successful.

Nick y'know that thing when you play devil's advocate and then d when people claim you believe CTS and you get in a hufff? Hey, we're there again. While I admit evidence drawn during water boarding is useless, I was being glib, KSM's nephew was the point man on the 93 bombing, and the weight of evidence against him isn't just on the waterboarding.

See Nick it's F*** like this which makes other users on this forum annoyed. You support CTs about 911 but then change your mind and get outraged when people call you a CTer. Now you post a response where you think KSM wasn't involved in 911 and forced into a confession.

Jesus Nick you're not sitting on the fence you're hopping from on side to the other, and getting annoyed when people call you on it. Pick a side, stay on it, or STFU.

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

Cough.. How about not oil but Israel. The Clean Break document funded by Benjamin Netanyahu was first presented to Bill Clinton (who rejected it) in 1996. It called for wars with Iraq, Iran, Lebannon and Syria.

You'll notice your wiki document is locked for several weeks because of the sheer bullcrap of your claim. You'll notice that in the 12 years since the "document" you claim exists one war out of four has occured.

Meanwhile the Zionist interventionist "neo-cons" took over the Republican Party and George W. Bush put the strategy into train. The CIA then carried out the 9/11 attacks as the catalyst to kickstart it all. That's my opinion anyway, and it seems alot more viable than the crap CNN and the White House dish out to us about Bin Laden and Al'CIA-da.

You'll see many familiar names behind Clean Break, which is also founding document of PNAC - Project for the New American Century - a warthirsty "neo-con" organisation. Characters instrumental in the Iraq war who authored the paper include Douglas Feith and Richard Perle. Both of whom are dual-citizens of the USA and the State of Israel, and held essential defence/foreign policy posts in GWB's Administration.

Oh christ you do realise that the PNAC document was refering to how Pearl Habour changed the US military, and that in the absence of such an event a gradual change out IT technology would would be necessary.

Get it 8.1 You're references a document that is incredibly controversial and may not exist, which refers to another document that is talking about the IT systems of the US military, this is idiotic.

Oil is a motivation for 9/11 and subsequent Middle Eastern invasions, yes, but securing Israel is the true fundamental factor.

We'll get to this in a sec.

8,1 wrote:

nd Zionist Larry Silverstein of course holding the lease to the WTC buildings.

I don't suppose you have a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Oh his name ends with a "Stein" ergo he's a jew, ergo, he's a "zionist", jesus man your racism is showing. Unless you can prove he's a jewish zionist.

zxIt's about absolute security and controlling the oil flow. Most of the essential ME pipelines pass through or terminate in Izzy: this is the way the US Government and Oil Corporations has worked it out. Out of rivers of blood in Iran and Iraq come rivers of oil flowing t

Thats a map of middle east oil lines, how many go through Israeli?

Er,

Most?

Some?

Hardly any?

Lets go with door number three.

[quore=concieted]
Have you ever considered the information freely available to you is perhaps,"not real" ?[/quote]

Have you ever cosidered the information you recieved from a Ct website is bull****?

8,1 wrote:

The full content of a McCain/Palin Administration would be revealed in due course if they were elected.

Yeah and er have you ever looked into the voting and voting record of every post war US record. Every US politician has courted the Jewish vote just as they have courted the Irish vote.

I'm sorry you dance a weird dance between cynicism and hope. You dare no realise to reality, sorry.

You're just wrong, on an epic scale. Wrong.

,8,1

Oh christ you do realise that the PNAC document was refering to how Pearl Habour changed the US military, and that in the absence of such an event a gradual change out IT technology would would be necessary.

I didn't even mention the PNAC-Rebuilding America's Defences "New Pearl Harbor" quote. Why did you jump on to that?

People love to mention the "New Pearl Harbor" quote as if it is the smoking gun. Indeed it is quite significant, but what they miss (and what my original point was) is that the Israeli-funded Clean Break was PNAC's founding document.

Yeah and er have you ever looked into the voting and voting record of every post war US record. Every US politician has courted the Jewish vote just as they have courted the Irish vote.

This is not about courting the Jewish vote asuch. This is about serving the Zionist lobby and fighting proxy wars on Israel's behalf.

I don't suppose you have a single piece of evidence to support this claim. Oh his name ends with a "Stein" ergo he's a jew, ergo, he's a "zionist", jesus man your racism is showing. Unless you can prove he's a jewish zionist.

First of all, he is a Jew, and it is not racist to point out that fact. This is indicated by his "-stein" surname but also by the fact that he is also a member of many Jewish organisations.

Secondly, he is a Zionist who is known to be close friends with many Israeli Prime Ministers, including Benjamin Netanyahu. The Jewish daily Haaretz has documented this. Netanyahu is obviously a fierce defender of Israel, as he is the the father of the Zionist interventionist doctrine Clean Break, which George Bush has implemented.

Silverstein acquired the lease for the WTC buildings on 24 June, 2001, 7 weeks before the attacks, in spite of being outbid by $50m. He also said on PBS radio, when WTC7 was allegedly on fire that, "the smartest thing to do is to pull it". For this and other anomalies in the Silverstein-9/11 connection, please see this article.

Kernel

conceited wrote: »

Isreal this isreal that... Talk about milking..... Isreal is convenient is it?

That's the standard retort to any kind of allegation made about Israel. Oh sure, we're all anti-semitic etc.... It's a valid point that the security of Israel is a major factor in Middle Eastern foreign policy from the US. It wasn't so long ago that Israel was involved in a war against it's neighbours, and it is an isolated state in the region.

PullMyFinger!

Kama wrote: »

Coz to discredit them and Stop teh Truth, kk? Also, as my linky was about, 911-Truth is a (SRS!) business, and certain memes worked well as The Product, others didn't. Target market of nutters, more nutters are well known. Most sensible people won't get into CTheory, either because its inevitably Strange Loop territory, or because its more comfortable not to ask yourself if the world isn't ok at root.

Given that disinfo, by its nature would contain Strange Loops, I don't see how its a 'flaw'...you could always say 'that shows how advanced they *really* are' and so forth. Also flawlessness would be a level of idealization that I don't think is healthy. I'd settle for competent. Think less '1337 Mast0r Plan' more 'ad hoc collage'. Available materials, Useful Idiots.

Of course, the assumption of an omnipotent master group seems most likely to be paranoid projection stemming from a lack of human agency in modern societies onto any convenient 'hook'; Jews, bankers, Bilderbergs, etc. Totalizing conspiracy theory is, inevitably imo, Wrong. However, it doesn't follow that this means conspiracy theory per se is Just Plain Wrong because 'They Are All Like That'. Thats argument-by-contagion, also pretty pathological stuff. Conspiracies have happened, historically. There is a certain degree of historical foundation to false flag incidents. Assassinations happen. And so forth.


For a shake-and-bake 'conspiracy' gedankenexperiment, try this:

1: Rather than thinking about a huge group of Lizards who secretly rule all, kk, be poetic and read Icke as metaphor (he isn't being metaphorical, but that doesn't matter). Look at it as the old lizard territorial brain, think of cold territorial people without basic mammalian hugs and loves.

2: Ok, now think about the arguments of people like The Corporation.
Accept provisionally for the argument that there are a lot of functional sociopaths in the world. By functional, I mean they don't get caught, and gravitate up through hierarchies due to affinity-advantages offered by a lack of affect, and general ability to screw people over effectively.

3: Now look at signs of concentration of power in the world, such as The Superclass (coming-out party for the Illuminati Power Elite or wha?) and the concept of Super-Empowered Individuals. Technological mediation and hierarchy allow a little agency to go a looong way.

4: Assume sociopaths can level to the top, or even near it, that there isn't a 'glass ceiling' for nutters. Ponder the possible effect of *just one* super-empowered sociopath in the modern world, a Bateman who doesn't lose it all the time. Now think maybe there's a few of em.

5: ????????

6: Wake up scared each morning.



Like said, agnostic on details and 'Truth'. Gibson said that in the age of information overload, we have no choice but pattern recognition; the risk here is apophenia. And always the caveat that, much as in politics and religion, once people lose their sense of humor, they've lost the plot ^_^

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT??!!!

:rolleyes:

Nick_oliveri

Diogenes wrote: »

Nick y'know that thing when you play devil's advocate and then d when people claim you believe CTS and you get in a hufff? Hey, we're there again. While I admit evidence drawn during water boarding is useless, I was being glib, KSM's nephew was the point man on the 93 bombing, and the weight of evidence against him isn't just on the waterboarding.

What im not allowed to disagree with you? Thats bull**** tbh. Im not supporting any conspiracy saying that the evidence against Osama isnt very clear, and he would take on that responsibility while already being hunted. Guity or not hes the Martyr.

See Nick it's F*** like this which makes other users on this forum annoyed. You support CTs about 911 but then change your mind and get outraged when people call you a CTer. Now you post a response where you think KSM wasn't involved in 911 and forced into a confession.

I "changed" my mind well before i got outraged with you and that other user recently. But the outrage was because you accused me of

find some entertainment in making up conspiracy theories

and he accused me of something different. And i thought that was resolved.

Jesus Nick you're not sitting on the fence you're hopping from on side to the other, and getting annoyed when people call you on it. Pick a side, stay on it, or STFU.

Im not hopping on any side. If your going to post lacking "evidence" aboot Osama being responsible for 9/11 then you may as well expect a backlash especially when you bring confession obtained under torture into the equation. Pick a side and stay on it. LOL, how to argue by Diogenes. This is not forums@randi, and ill choose to debate whoever the fuk i want.

ETA: i couldnt really give two shiites about you thinking im a CT'er. Its that quote from the Jim Corr thread that i will be outraged over. Its making mountains out of molehills to "get ahead" in an argument or debate, and i wont stand for lies.

conceited

Quote:
Originally Posted by conceited
Isreal this isreal that... Talk about milking..... Isreal is convenient is it?

=Kernel]That's the standard retort to any kind of allegation made about Israel. Oh sure, we're all anti-semitic etc.... It's a valid point that the security of Israel is a major factor in Middle Eastern foreign policy from the US. It wasn't so long ago that Israel was involved in a war against it's neighbours, and it is an isolated state in the region.

You obviosuly feel I think you don't like isreal,thats not true. Isreal is convenient in 9/11 and many other past occurrences of terrorism.

It's convenient, and in most cases, it's the best they can come up with. Or the only "logical" reasoning they have. But it's far from logical, as they have no evidence in the first place.
Quite a few websites concerning this subject hold isreal responsible, don't they?
Instead of trying to educate people using facts,they potray isreal was involved,without one shred of evidence mind you!
It's fine having an alternative viewpoint on something, but please, have something to back up your viewpoint. Preferably, in the form of hard evidence you can use in court.

And before you answer back saying "if i had evidence", etc, etc, If you have an alternative to the offical story provide facts, or no one will take what you have to say seriously, me included !

,8,1

Israel is not "convenient", conceited (how appropriate) it is at the very heart of 9/11. Larry Silvestein is a Zionist and the owner of WTC at the time of its destruction. Israeli firms ran security for the airports affected. Logistical means to coordinate the event right there; that's not even getting into political motivations.

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

I didn't even mention the PNAC-Rebuilding America's Defences "New Pearl Harbor" quote. Why did you jump on to that?

Because the PNAC document was last year's Clean Break.

People love to mention the "New Pearl Harbor" quote as if it is the smoking gun. Indeed it is quite significant, but what they miss (and what my original point was) is that the Israeli-funded Clean Break was PNAC's founding document.

Again your only supporting evidence that this is the content of the "Clean Break Document" is a wikipedia article. Wikipedia not being the most reliable source in the first place, and the article is locked.

Even if we take the article on faith as genuine, it was written over a decade ago, and only one of the four wars it calls for has come to pass, so it's hardly a blueprint from the NWO plans for the late 1990's to 2008 is it?

This is not about courting the Jewish vote asuch. This is about serving the Zionist lobby and fighting proxy wars on Israel's behalf.

Again any evidence for this?

First of all, he is a Jew, and it is not racist to point out that fact. This is indicated by his "-stein" surname but also by the fact that he is also a member of many Jewish organisations.

That doesn't make him a Zionist. My Uncle is a prominent member of many Irish American associations that doesn't make him a supporter of the IRA.

Secondly, he is a Zionist who is known to be close friends with many Israeli Prime Ministers, including Benjamin Netanyahu. The Jewish daily Haaretz has documented this. Netanyahu is obviously a fierce defender of Israel, as he is the the father of the Zionist interventionist doctrine Clean Break, which George Bush has implemented.

Firstly your first link, Crimes of Zion really? Really?


Secondly all this is guilt by association. He's a wealthy Jewish businessman who happens to know Netanyhau, it does not make him a Zionist.

Silverstein acquired the lease for the WTC buildings on 24 June, 2001, 7 weeks before the attacks, in spite of being outbid by $50m. He also said on PBS radio, when WTC7 was allegedly on fire that, "the smartest thing to do is to pull it". For this and other anomalies in the Silverstein-9/11 connection, please see this article.

This is the most tired piece of bullcrap in the 911 conspiracy theorist book.


1. "Pull it" is not a demolition industry term for a controlled demolition.

2. The full quote is "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it." And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

http://911myths.com/html/wtc7_pulled.html

He's quite clearly refering the operation to try and save the building, and to pull that operation.

3. How many building owners are asked if the fire department should demolish the building.

4. if your theory is true, then the New York Fire Department is complicit in the murder of over 300 fire fighters and police officers. Wanna go into a Bronx fire station and say that to a couple of FNDY's finest to their faces?

Nick Oliveri wrote:

ETA: i couldnt really give two shiites about you thinking im a CT'er. Its that quote from the Jim Corr thread that i will be outraged over. Its making mountains out of molehills to "get ahead" in an argument or debate, and i wont stand for lies.

Whatever Nick you're a mass of contradictions, you spout CTs and then get offended when you get called a CTer, welcome to ignore.

Nick_oliveri

Diogenes wrote: »

Whatever Nick you're a mass of contradictions, you spout CTs and then get offended when you get called a CTer, welcome to ignore.

Obvious bull****.
/me cries
:pac:

,8,1

He's quite clearly refering the operation to try and save the building, and to pull that operation.

Clearly. :pac: Actually it's very ambiguous, and it's all the more confusing that the BBC reported WTC7's collapse 26 minutes before it actually happened. The WTC7 collapse actually evades the collective consciousness because none of the news channels gave it much coverage. A very large number of people don't even know that three Manhattan buildings were destroyed on 9/11; one of which was not even hit.

[Link]

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

Clearly. :pac: Actually it's very ambiguous,

No it's not. Conspiracy theorists like to muddy the waters. If we take the full quote of Silverstein as proof of CD of WTC7, it means that;

A) That WTC 7 was prewired with explosives but the decision was hanging in the balance. Firstly do you understand how much work goes into a controlled demolition? It takes weeks and months of strenuous labour to rig a building of demolition. Why would go to all this trouble and then decide on the day whether or not demolish it? If they had rigged the building why debate whether to pull it? Those explosive charges could be found by anyone exposing the conspiracy, so why the debate?

B)I noticed you've avoid the FNDY angle. Simple question 8,1 do you think the FNDY were complicit in this. For your quote to be relevant it implicates the FNDY, so yes or no, are the FNDY involved in this?

C) the sheer idiocy of your argument. You're saying that Larry Silverstein was a crucial part of the 911 conspiracy theory and then exposed his guilt on videotape to PBS. Really? Larry Silverstein is a crucial part of the greatest criminal conspiracy of all time, is complicit in the murder of thousand of people and then goes on TV and implicates himself? Do you have any idea how retarded this sounds?

and it's all the more confusing that the BBC reported WTC7's collapse 26 minutes before it actually happened.

Hey you missed CNN they also reported the collapse as well. But hey guess what, if you'd bother to search this forum you'd see this;

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert LaRocca

2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html

4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes

5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.
–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)

6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472.PDF

7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly.

8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports02.pdf page 48.

11. At Vesey St. and West St., I could see that 7 WTC was ablaze and damaged, along with other buildings. –M. DeFilippis, PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports03.pdf page 49

[Note: the fires in 7 were probably not mainly due to damage from the south tower, but from the north.]
12. So yeah then we just stayed on Vesey until building Seven came down. There was nothing we could do. The flames were coming out of every window of that building from the explosion of the south tower. So then building Seven came down. When that started coming down you heard that pancaking sound again everyone jumped up and starts.

Q: Why was building Seven on fire? Was that flaming debris from tower two, from tower two that fell onto that building and lit it on fire?

A: Correct. Because it really got going, that building Seven, saw it late in the day and like the first Seven floors were on fire. It looked like heavy fire on seven floors. It was fully engulfed, that whole building. There were pieces of tower two [sic: he probably means tower one] in building Seven and the corners of the building missing and what-not. But just looking up at it from ground level however many stories -- it was 40 some odd -- you could see the flames going straight through from one side of the building to the other, that’s an entire block. –Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy

13. "We were down about a block from the base of the World Trade Center towers about an hour ago. And there was a great deal of concern at that time, the firemen said building number 7 was going to collapse, building number five was in danger of collapsing. And there's so little they can do to try to fight the fires in these buildings, because the fires are so massive. And so much of the buildings continues to fall into the street. When you're down there, Dan, you hear smaller secondary explosions going off every 15 or 20 minutes, and so it's an extremely dangerous place to be."
–CBS-TV News Reporter Vince DeMentri http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.secondary.explosions.wmv

14. Well, they said that's (7) fully involved at this time. This was a fully involved building. I said, all right, they're not coming for us for a while. Now you're trapped in this rubble, and you're trying to get a grasp of an idea of what's going on there. I heard on the handy talky that we are now fighting a 40-story building fully involved.

Now you're trapped in the rubble and the guys who are there are fighting the worst high-rise fire in the history of New York or history of the world, probably, I don't know, 40, story building fully involved, I guess that was probably the worst.

I was, needless to say, scared to death that something else was going to fall on us, that this building was going to come down and we were all going to die, after surviving the worst of it. [Note: I deleted the link this account, and searching the net for the text doesn’t turn up anything. This sounds like an account from north tower stairwell B survivor. Anyone who knows for sure, let me know.]

15. And 7 World Trade was burning up at the time. We could see it. ... the fire at 7 World Trade was working its way from the front of the building northbound to the back of the building. There was no way there could be water put on it, because there was no water in the area. –Firefighter Eugene Kelty Jr.

16. The time was approximately 11a.m. Both of the WTC towers were collapsed and the streets were covered with debris. Building #7 was still standing but burning. ...We spoke to with a FDNY Chief who has his men holed up in the US Post Office building. He informed us that the fires in building 7 were uncontrollable and that its collapse was imminent. There were no fires inside the loading dock (of 7) at this time but we could hear explosions deep inside. –PAPD P.O. William Connors http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 69

17. "There's number Seven World Trade. That's the OEM bunker." We had a snicker about that. We looked over, and it's engulfed in flames and starting to collapse.

We're kind of caught in traffic and people and things, and everything's going on. We hear over the fire portable, "Everybody evacuate the site. It's going to collapse." Mark Steffens starts yelling, "Get out of here! Get out of here! Get out of here! We've got to go! We've got to go! It's going to collapse." I turned around, and I piped up real loud and said, "Stay in the frigging car. Roll the windows up. It's pancake collapsing. We'll be fine. The debris will quit and the cloud will come through. Just stay in the car." We pulled the car over, turned around and just watched it pancake. We had a dust cloud but nothing like it was before. –Paramedic Louis Cook

(Building 7 fire makes rescuer of NT stairwell victim’s route impassable, just before collapse):
I remember it was bad and I'm going to get to a point where we came back that way on the way up. We couldn't even go that way, that's how bad the fire was, but by the time I was coming back it was rolling, more than a couple of floors, just fully involved, rolling.

...So now it's us 4 and we are walking towards it and I remember it would have at one point been an easier path to go towards our right, but being building 7 -- that must have been building 7 I'm guessing with that fire, we decided to stay away from that because things were just crackling, falling and whatnot. So as I’m going back, that fire that was on my right is now on my left. I’m backtracking and that fire is really going and on the hike towards there, we put down our masks, which at this point started to realize maybe it would have been good thing if we had this mask on the way back, but then again between the fire and about halfway when I was on the way back, I got a radio call from the guys that we left and it was Johnny Colon the chauffeur of 43, who was effecting a different rescue. He was carrying somebody out.

He had called me and said “Hey Jerry don’t try and get back out the way you went in which was big heads up move because he said that building was rolling on top of the building that we were passing. That building was on fire and likely to collapse more too.

Between Picciotto asking me are you sure we can get out this way because it really didn’t look good with that fire and my guy telling me that you better not because of the area we crawled in was unattainable now too. ...we started going back the other way.

Q: Would that be towards West Street?

A: That would have been back towards what I know is the Winter Garden....[west]
–Firefighter Gerard Suden

18. I remember Chief Hayden saying to me, "We have a six-story building over there, a seven-story building, fully involved." At that time he said, "7 has got fire on several floors." He said, "We've got a ten-story over there, another ten-story over there, a six-story over there, a 13-story over there." He just looked at me and said, "**** 'em all. Let 'em burn." He said, "Just tell the guys to keep looking for guys. Just keep looking for the brothers. We've got people trapped. We've got to get them out." –Lieutenant William Ryan

19. I walked around the building to get back to the command post and that's when they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down. ...They had three floors of fire on three separate floors, probably 10, 11 and 15 it looked like, just burning merrily. It was pretty amazing, you know, it's the afternoon in lower Manhattan, a major high-rise is burning, and they said 'we know.' –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy

20. We were champing at the bit," says WCBS-TV reporter Vince DeMentri of his decision to sneak behind police barricades and report from 7 World Trade Center a half-hour before it collapsed. "I knew the story was in there." But after he and his cameraman slipped past officers, they lost all sense of direction. "From outside this zone, you could figure out where everything was," he says. "But inside, it was all destruction and blown-out buildings, and we had no clue. I walked into one building, but I had no idea where I was. The windows were all blown out. Computers, desks, furniture, and people's possessions were strewn all over." He found a picture of a little girl lying in the rubble. Then he realized that No. 7, aflame, was about fifteen to twenty feet ahead of him. "I looked up Barclay Street," he says. "There was nobody out. No bodies, no injured. Nobody. There were mounds of burning debris. It was like opening a broiler." http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5183/index.html

21. They are worried that number 7 is burning and they are talking about not ceasing operations.
–Deputy Commissioner Frank Gribbon

22. There were hundreds of firefighters waiting to -- they were waiting for 7 World Trade Center to come down as it was on fire. It was too dangerous to go in and fight the fire. –Assistant Commissioner James Drury

23. We assisted some FDNY personnel who were beginning to attempt to fight the fire at 7 WTC. We assisted in dragging hose they needed to bring water into the building. –Kenneth Kohlmann PAPD P.O. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-transcripts/pa-police-reports04.pdf page 26

24. My first thoughts when I came down a little further into the site, south of Chambers Street, was, "Where am I?" I didn't recognize it. Obviously, the towers were gone. The only thing that remained standing was a section of the Vista Hotel. Building 7 was on fire. That was ready to come down. –Charlie Vitchers, Ground Zero Superintendent http://www.pbs.org/americarebuilds/profiles/profiles_vitchers_t.html

25. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower, and there was fire on every floor." – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

26. At that point, Seven World Trade had 12 stories of fire in it. They were afraid it was going to collapse on us, so they pulled everybody out. We couldn't do anything. – Firefighter Maureen McArdle-Schulman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 17)

27. The 7 World Trade Center was roaring. All we could think is we were an Engine Company, we have got to get them some water. We need some water you know. With that, we positioned the rig, I don't know, 3 quarters of a block away maybe. A fire boat was going to relay water to us. I don't know if I have things in the right order, whatever, if we were getting water out of a hydrant first. Jesus Christ --
Q. Captain said you were getting water. You were draining a vacuum?
A. It was draining away from us. Right. We had to be augmented. I think that's when the fire boat came. I think the fire boats supplied us. Of course you don't see that. You just see the (inaudible) way and you know, we are hooking up and we wound up supplying the Tower Ladder there. I just remember feeling like helpless, like everybody there was doomed and there is -- I just felt like there was absolutely nothing we could do. I want to just go back a little bit.–Firefighter Kevin Howe

28. "When I got out and onto a clear pile, I see that 7 World Trade Center and the customs house have serious fire. Almost every window has fire. It is an amazing site. –Captain Jay Jonas, Ladder 6. (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002. P. 103)

29. Firefighter TJ Mundy: "The other building, #7, was fully involved, and he was worried about the next collapse." (Dennis Smith. Report From Ground Zero. New York: Viking Penguin, 2002.)

30. 7 World Trade was burning from the ground to the ceiling fully involved. It was unbelievable. –Firefighter Steve Modica http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/modica.html

31. So I attempted to get in through the Barkley Street ramp which is on Barkley (sic) and West Broadway, but I was being held back by the fire department, because 7 World Trade, which is above the ramp, was now fully engulfed.
–PAPD K-9 Sergeant David Lim http://www.911report.com/media/davidlim.pdf

32. We could hear fires crackling. We didn’t know it at the time, but No. 7 World Trade Center and No. 5 World Trade Center were immediately adjacent to us and they were roaring, they were on fire. Those were the sounds that we were hearing. ...At the same time, No. 5 World Trade Center, No. 6 World Trade Center and No. 7 World Trade Center were roaring. They were on fire. And they were right next to us. So we have all that smoke that we’re dealing with.

All these quotes are from the official Oral Histories of the FNDY
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

8,1 The BBC and CNN early reports came forward because reports of the collapse of the WTC 7 were circling for hours beforehand. The collapse was predicted because professional Fire Department staff saw it coming.

8,1 you're arguing crap I've shot down a couple of dozen times. Try and bring something new.

The WTC7 collapse actually evades the collective consciousness because none of the news channels gave it much coverage. A very large number of people don't even know that three Manhattan buildings were destroyed on 9/11; one of which was not even hit.

Yeah because a building collapse is so much worse then the death of thousands of people. News channels were just a tad preoccupied by that fact, and the possibility that further attacks were coming. People aren't interested in WTC 7 because weirdly a building collapse doesn't matter in people's consciousness like thousands of sons, daughters, dads and moms, died, and that to people matters more.

But perhaps you could explain why building collapsed, yet they NWO or whomever argued with the FNDY about whether the building should or shouldn't collapsed. You could explain why they wanted to building to collapse and at the same time, as you admit, kept it from the public consciousness. Why was this building significant? And perhaps you could explain why this building in particular needed to be rigged when about a half dozen buildings around the same size as the WTC 7 also needed to be demolished in the months after 911.

8,1 do yourself a favour and search this forum before you answer, if you don't I know your dubious claims will be exposed like the above.

Oh and btw, how is your proof that Silverstein is Zionist or that Clear Water is a real document working out for you?

,8,1

Oh and btw, how is your proof that Silverstein is Zionist or that Clear Water is a real document working out for you?

Very well actually. The exact name of the document is "Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing The Realm" and it is referenced all over reputable newspapers. Its full history, including an open letter to Bill Clinton in 1998 inviting him to implement Clean Break, can be found here:

The Blueprint for the new Bush policy had actually been drawn up five years earlier by three of his top national security advisors. Soon to be appointed to senior administration positions, they were Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, and David Wurmser.

At the time, the three officials were out of government and working for conservative pro-Israel think tanks. Perle and Feith had previously served in high level Pentagon positions during the presidency of Ronald Reagan. In a very unusual move, the former--and future--senior American officials were acting as a sort of American privy council to the new Israeli Prime Minister. The Perle task force to advise Netanyahu was set up by the Jerusalem based IASPS, where Wurmser was working. A key part of the plan was to get the United States to pull out of peace negotiations and simply let Israel take care of the Palestinians as it saw fit.

Phase 1: The Focus on Israel

In early 1996 at IASPS, a Jerusalem-based think tank with an office in Washington. Wurmser, Feith, Perle and others wrote a report for the new Israeli prime minister, calling the removal of Saddam from power "an important Israeli strategic objective." Perle flew to Israel and presented the report to Netanyahu.

Phase 2: Joining Forces - PNAC is Born

June 1997. PNAC, the neocon think tank that lobbied hardest for the war was founded by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, Abrams, and Podhoretz, among others.

January 1998. PNAC's first public statement, an open letter to Clinton (from Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Perle, etc.) urged necessary "military steps"... "for removing Saddam's regime from power" to protect, our troops, Israel, and moderate Arab states from the "possibility" of Saddam acquiring the capability to deliver possible WMD. In May it wrote a similar letter to Senator Lott.

Lots of fascinating facts (remember those things Diogenes?) there, but nonetheless the PNAC-Clean Break document contributed greatly to the Iraqi massacre 2003-today, so it's nothing to laud.

The old tried and tested "it doesn't exist" trick by 9/11-Liars. First line of defence as always.

,8,1

As for Larry Silverstein being a Zionist, well he is a dual-citizen of the State of Israel (as with so many other figures caught up in 9/11), so surely he feels some allegiance to that State. The question is, how much.

Silverstein has hung out with Israeli PMs before and after they were elected - including the notoriously Zionist Benjamin Nehanahu who was in New York the day of the attacks. He is also friendly with Rupert Murdoch owner of News Corp., another self-identifying Zionist: "I have always believed in the future of Israel and the goals of the international Jewish community."

You can call it guilt by association, but association certainly means something. Especially if many of his associates happen to be the among top Zionists in the world. I don't think close relations with Zionist PMs such as Nehanahu "just happen", nor are they without purpose.

Silverstein is also a member of the Anti-Defamation League, the UJA, other orgs committed to advancing Zionist politics:

"Henry Kissinger, Rupert Murdoch and Mortimer Zuckerman are on the [ADL] dinner committee," according to a recent New York Times report on the ADL’s recent fund-raiser in which the controversial Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi received the ADL’s Distinguished Statesman Award.

Silverstein and Eisenberg [who conducted the auction for WTC's lease in July 2001) have both held senior leadership positions with the United Jewish Appeal (UJA), a billion dollar Zionist “charity” organization, to which Murdoch and Lowy [co-owner of WTC complex] generously contribute.

Silverstein is a former chairman of UJA. This organization raises hundreds of millions of dollars every year for a network of Zionist agencies in the United States and Israel.

(More on the knot of connections here.)

Given all these factors, the onus is on him to prove he is not a Zionist. Or, for you to find a statement where he denounces putting the Israeli people before Americans, where he denounces expanding borders illegally, where he denounces at-all-human-costs no-compromises Zionism.

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

As for Larry Silverstein being a Zionist, well he is a dual-citizen of the State of Israel (as with so many other figures caught up in 9/11), so surely he feels some allegiance to that State. The question is, how much.

Silverstein has hung out with Israeli PMs before and after they were elected - including the notoriously Zionist Benjamin Nehanahu who was in New York the day of the attacks. He is also friendly with Rupert Murdoch owner of News Corp., another self-identifying Zionist: "I have always believed in the future of Israel and the goals of the international Jewish community."

Murdoch is a Presbyterian.

You can call it guilt by association, but association certainly means something. Especially if many of his associates happen to be the among top Zionists in the world. I don't think close relations with Zionist PMs such as Nehanahu "just happen", nor are they without purpose.

Silverstein is also a member of the Anti-Defamation League, the UJA, other orgs committed to advancing Zionist politics:

You lose massive points by quoting a holocaust denier in your link. Where's your evidence that the Anti-Defamation League.

(More on the knot of connections here.)

Given all these factors, the onus is on him to prove he is not a Zionist. Or, for you to find a statement where he denounces putting the Israeli people before Americans, where he denounces expanding borders illegally, where he denounces at-all-human-costs no-compromises Zionism.

No they're not "facts" they're links to webforums and holocaust deniers.

Larry Silverstein is the great disco dancer in the world.

Larry Silverstein once counted to infinite twice.

Can you prove he didn't do either of these things. No. It's not on me to disprove you, and the onus is on you to support your assertions.

Even if it where true. You neglected this portion of my post, again.

A) That WTC 7 was prewired with explosives but the decision was hanging in the balance. Firstly do you understand how much work goes into a controlled demolition? It takes weeks and months of strenuous labour to rig a building of demolition. Why would go to all this trouble and then decide on the day whether or not demolish it? If they had rigged the building why debate whether to pull it? Those explosive charges could be found by anyone exposing the conspiracy, so why the debate?

B)I noticed you've avoid the FNDY angle. Simple question 8,1 do you think the FNDY were complicit in this. For your quote to be relevant it implicates the FNDY, so yes or no, are the FNDY involved in this?

C) the sheer idiocy of your argument. You're saying that Larry Silverstein was a crucial part of the 911 conspiracy theory and then exposed his guilt on videotape to PBS. Really? Larry Silverstein is a crucial part of the greatest criminal conspiracy of all time, is complicit in the murder of thousand of people and then goes on TV and implicates himself? Do you have any idea how retarded this sounds?

Smudgeyboy

People who dont believe 9/11 was an inside job all have one thing in common...

They've never gone to find out if it was for themselves.

It gets more obvious with every country they invade, Obama's going to move onto Pakistan after Osama. IT IS A JOKE!

Look into it, 9/11 is nothing. 3,000 people. More important because they were white?

How many innocents have the American army killed? They havent had a just war yet.

I suggest you look into the 7/7 bombings in England, the Patriot Act....Im gonna stop there, it's ridiculous we even have to debate this :eek: Use your brains!

Planes dont take down buildings like that, even one on one.
3 huge buildings fell at demolition speed on 9/11.
There was 2 planes. They all looked like demolitions. Come on.

Diogenes

,8,1 wrote: »

Very well actually. The exact name of the document is "Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing The Realm" and it is referenced all over reputable newspapers. Its full history, including an open letter to Bill Clinton in 1998 inviting him to implement Clean Break, can be found here:



Lots of fascinating facts (remember those things Diogenes?) there, but nonetheless the PNAC-Clean Break document contributed greatly to the Iraqi massacre 2003-today, so it's nothing to laud.

The old tried and tested "it doesn't exist" trick by 9/11-Liars. First line of defence as always.

Ah yes. Clean Break. 1996 For Israeli, remember what you told us it contained?

Cough.. How about not oil but Israel. The Clean Break document funded by Benjamin Netanyahu was first presented to Bill Clinton (who rejected it) in 1996. It called for wars with Iraq, Iran, Lebannon and Syria.

http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

Perhaps you could point out where exactly it does all that.

Considering that Ariel Sharon warned Bush against the Iraq invasion saying.

But sometime prior to March 2003, Sharon told Bush privately in no uncertain terms what he thought about the Iraq plan. Sharon’s words — revealed here for the first time — constituted a friendly but pointed warning to Bush. Sharon acknowledged that Saddam Hussein was an “acute threat” to the Middle East and that he believed Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction.

Yet according to one knowledgeable source, Sharon nevertheless advised Bush not to occupy Iraq. According to another source — Danny Ayalon, who was Israel’s ambassador to the United States at the time of the Iraq invasion, and who sat in on the Bush-Sharon meetings — Sharon told Bush that Israel would not “push one way or another” regarding the Iraq scheme.

According to both sources, Sharon warned Bush that if he insisted on occupying Iraq, he should at least abandon his plan to implant democracy in this part of the world. “In terms of culture and tradition, the Arab world is not built for democratization,” Ayalon recalls Sharon advising.

Be sure, Sharon added, not to go into Iraq without a viable exit strategy. And ready a counter-insurgency strategy if you expect to rule Iraq, which will eventually have to be partitioned into its component parts. Finally, Sharon told Bush, please remember that you will conquer, occupy and leave, but we have to remain in this part of the world. Israel, he reminded the American president, does not wish to see its vital interests hurt by regional radicalization and the spillover of violence beyond Iraq’s borders.

Those wacky zionists eh, H. A. whole heap a trouble!

Smudgeyboy

Sadam believed he was Nebuchadnezer reincarnated, he was going to open a gate (wormhole) in Iraq (Babylon) just like Nebuchadnezer. That's why they went to Iraq and beheaded Sadam.

They are following an ancient script. Google 'the tower' tarot card' for 9/11. They are mad bastards, but to accept their system is to accept you know nothing yet. We are at the bottom of the pyramid.

Their true actions are seen by people with eyes to see and ears to hear, I strongly advise everybody get symbol-literate. It's one of their many tools of secret messeges and hidden agendas, much to be learned.

Diogenes

Smudgeyboy wrote: »

Sadam believed he was Nebuchadnezer reincarnated, he was going to open a gate (wormhole) in Iraq (Babylon) just like Nebuchadnezer. That's why they went to Iraq and beheaded Sadam.

They are following an ancient script. Google 'the tower' tarot card' for 9/11. They are mad bastards, but to accept their system is to accept you know nothing yet. We are at the bottom of the pyramid.

Their true actions are seen by people with eyes to see and ears to hear, I strongly advise everybody get symbol-literate. It's one of their many tools of secret messeges and hidden agendas, much to be learned.

Stop eating paint!

derry

Smudgeyboy wrote: »

Sadam believed he was Nebuchadnezer reincarnated, he was going to open a gate (wormhole) in Iraq (Babylon) just like Nebuchadnezer. That's why they went to Iraq and beheaded Sadam.

They are following an ancient script. Google 'the tower' tarot card' for 9/11. They are mad bastards, but to accept their system is to accept you know nothing yet. We are at the bottom of the pyramid.

Their true actions are seen by people with eyes to see and ears to hear, I strongly advise everybody get symbol-literate. It's one of their many tools of secret messeges and hidden agendas, much to be learned.

LOL:D
I thought it was the mad hatters tea party that opened the worm hole

Derry

Smudgeyboy

Haha That's funny, Im a painter!