The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

Our man in Havana

I would love to see one of their summonses purely to see what they are claiming and its legal basis.

Seth Brundle

kbannon wrote: »

I have sent the following to Sue, Leggit & Run:

Hi

I was wondering if you could answer the following queries for some research that I'm completing:

1. what specific legislation covers the provision for fines for non payment of the M50 toll?
2. what happens if a toll and fine remains unpaid?
3. Can non payment (and any subsequent court appearance) affect ones credit rating?
4. How many summonses have been issued to date?
5. How many successful convictions have been achieved against M50 toll non-payers?

Many thanks
me

I'm curious to see their response. I'm more concerned with #1 and should I receive a response, I will let you know.

and the response...

Sue, Leggit & Run wrote:

Dear Sir,

In relation to your email query of the 29th June 2009, the following are our replies:-

1. The Roads Acts 1993 - 2007 are the primary legislation and the Bye-Laws for the M50 (between junctions 6 & 7) are the secondary legislation that covers the provisions for fines of non-payment of the M50 toll.

2. If a toll and fines remains un-paid a liquidated sum Civil Summons will be served on the Defendant. If he chooses to defend it the case will be heard at Dublin Metropolitan District Court. If he does not defend it a Judgment will be taken up for the total of the tolls and fines.

3. Yes, if a Judgment is obtained against a person this information will be gathered by the credit rating agencies and will affect the Defendants credit rating.

4. & 5. Summons have issued against Defendants. The first of these were dealt with by Dublin Metropolitian District Court at the end of June and we expect further summons will be dealt with every month from here on in.


For specific information in relation to the number of summons issued and the number that have been satisfied by Defendants and Judgment taken up you will need to contact Mr. Sean O'Neill of the National Roads Authority press office for this information.

yours faithfully,

any suggestions on a reply to that?

basherzz

They seem to have an answer to everything don't they? I've today written to them - again - in the hope of sorting out my case. One trip to North Dublin since July last year and the result is threats from that shower of wasters in Kerry. I wasn't even driving the car myself. The next time I've to go there, I'll be turning on the Sat Nav and going thru the city. So much grief for €6. That's what I get for living in the west and not taking any notice of what's going on in the capital. I've also sent a complaint about eflow, nra and p&f to the Dept. of Transport. Wonder where that'll get me?

Damien360

Anyone know how their database works. Are they storing car details and owner details long after payments and fines complete.

Reason I ask: We never heard from them until we made one trip. We made a trip Northbound and then Southbound a week later in May. We prepaid at a shop correctly. Never made another trip there again. 2 weeks later we received a fine for non-payment. Called them (on day that phone system switched to Cork) and they took the reference number and were able to see that not only was it not our make of car but not even remotely similar reg plate. Then, on Monday we got another notice for a non-payment. Again, not our reg or make of car. Both fines cleared by them and asked for a letter of confirmation. got one, awaiting other

So, their system is obviously reading reg plates and cross referencing with a database for fines. Databases can screw up easily. But, should they be holding a record of reg plates long after payment has been made (data protection act). Surely the system should be, read plate, cross check if it is a tag, then cross check if prepaid, cross check for payment within 24 hours, then if no payment cross reference with tax office for home address.

It would appear, given our circumstances, that they are holding our details on their database and the database is randomly picking defaulters from the fianl database.

Should they store your details after you have cleared their payment system ? Is that legal ?

dermot_sheehan

Section 64(4) of the Roads Act 1993 (as amended by section 4 of the Roads Act 2007 provides that a default toll may be recovered as due under a contract in a court of competent jurisdiction.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0034/sec0004.html#sec4


Section 53 of the Courts of Justice Act 1936 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1936/en/act/pub/0048/sec0053.html

the district court where the contract was made also has jurisdiction

L1011

My van is now getting randomly charged car prices yet always appearing as Cat 5 LGV on the toll tag statement. Other times its invisible, other times its charged the correct van price. My car is still invisible.

It appears that whatever EFlow do, it involves not taking enough cash off me!

Seth Brundle

I lashed this off to SL&R and to the NRA Head of Communications

Hi Person from SL&R,

I'm concerned over a technical matter which I'm confident that your firm may be able to help me on.

The Bye-Laws (as per http://www.irisoifigiuil.ie/archive/2008/july/2008%2007%2025%20IO%20Issue.pdf) clearly state that there are differing forms of toll (commonly referred to as fines).

“Toll” means any toll (including any Applicable Toll or Default Toll) chargeable in accordance with the Acts and these Bye-Laws.

“Applicable Toll” subject to Regulation 15.3, means, at any time and in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the toll determined by the Authority (inclusive of indexation, value added tax and rounding) to be chargeable in respect of such User/Vehicle Class provided that such Applicable Toll shall not exceed the Maximum Toll applicable to such User/Vehicle Class at such time.

“Initial Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class and at any time, the Base Initial Default Toll, adjusted in accordance with Regulation 15.

“Additional Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class and at any time, the Base Additional Default Toll, adjusted in accordance with Regulation 15.

“Base Initial Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount set out opposite such User/Vehicle Class in the column entitled “Base Initial Default Toll” in the table in the First Schedule.

“Base Additional Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount set out opposite such User/Vehicle Class in the column entitled “Base Additional Default Toll” in the table in the First Schedule.

“Base Final Default Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount set out opposite such User/Vehicle Class in the column entitled “Base Final Default Toll” in the table in the First Schedule.

“Default Toll” means any of:
(a) the Initial Default Toll;
(b) the Additional Default Toll; and
(c) the Final Default Toll.

“Maximum Toll” means, in respect of each User/Vehicle Class, the amount determined in accordance with Regulation 15.

However, Section 13. states:

TOLLS – PUBLICLY AVAILABLE
13.1 A list of the Applicable Tolls for an Unregistered Vehicle authorised by these Bye-Laws shall at all times be exhibited in a conspicuous place at or near the Toll Location on the Toll Road.

Having recently used the M50 bridge, I can confirm (as you are possibly aware) that the only tolls mentioned in a conspicuous place are the Base tolls - but not the following:

* Base Initial Default Toll
* Base Additional Default Toll
* Base Final Default Toll

Am I correct in believing that because the tolls, other than the base toll, are not displayed, then these tolls (i.e. fines) are not legally enforceable and if I am indeed mistaken, can you please clarify under which section of the Bye-Law renders them legally enforceable if they are not displayed in a conspicuous location?

Yours sincerely

Hopefully, we'll see something back soon letting us know what way they view the legislation.

(a bit late now but is it ok?)

mcwhirter

I have been having a problem with the Eflow website. It will not allow me to delete the old bank account and enter a new one. Currently the money I owe is about 4 months worth, they just seem to be adding each unpaid month to the next month. They have not contacted me at all about the unpaid bill. I have emailed them but they either don't reply or say bank account is correct.

Is there another alternative to Eflow which accepts post paid as I am at the end of my tether with this unprofessional company. I have also had them bill me for using a truck on the m50 which I don't have.I have never had this amount of problems with any other business I have dealt with.

guitar

Any outcomes of court cases yet?

simples

mcwhirter wrote: »

I have been having a problem with the Eflow website. It will not allow me to delete the old bank account and enter a new one. Currently the money I owe is about 4 months worth, they just seem to be adding each unpaid month to the next month. They have not contacted me at all about the unpaid bill. I have emailed them but they either don't reply or say bank account is correct.

Is there another alternative to Eflow which accepts post paid as I am at the end of my tether with this unprofessional company. I have also had them bill me for using a truck on the m50 which I don't have.I have never had this amount of problems with any other business I have dealt with.

Hey I'm an ex-employee, but I might have a solution as I got this a few times in the call centre..

Have you tried adding the new bank details first, then making the new details the primary payment method, then deleting the old details? Sometimes customers try to delete old details before adding new ones and the system won't normally allow this.

Alternatively if you call the centre they should be fit to do this for you.

Also if you have a tag account you should check out http://www.tagcompare.ie/ as this details the different tag providers and their terms of service.

A lot of people are with EazyPass but I don't know what they are like as a provider.. also it won't guarantee you will still have a problem-free experience. There were always calls coming in from customers of other tag providers getting billed in error.. something which people may note has nothing to do with the call centre provider :P

Hope this helps!!

simples

Damien360 wrote: »

Anyone know how their database works. Are they storing car details and owner details long after payments and fines complete.

The last time I had access to the system it had records of all journeys from the start of the barrier-free tolling for all vehicles.

So, their system is obviously reading reg plates and cross referencing with a database for fines.

The first time the system reads a plate, it checks with the Vehicle Registration Unit (VRU) in Shannon to get the owner details (name and address). If this reg is already on the system then it will add the journey to the vehicle history.

It would appear, given our circumstances, that they are holding our details on their database and the database is randomly picking defaulters from the fianl database.

Should they store your details after you have cleared their payment system ? Is that legal ?

Given the vast amount of problems with eFlow it is better if they are able to see a full history of your vehicle, payments etc. And I'm not sure of the exact legal standing but most companies are able to keep such records for themselves if not for the benefit of customers.

Hopefully that answers your questions.. feel free to ask any more or let me know if I haven't answered properly

Our man in Havana

The first time the system reads a plate, it checks with the Vehicle Registration Unit (VRU) in Shannon to get the owner details (name and address). If this reg is already on the system then it will add the journey to the vehicle history.

So it asks for the owners details before any default on paying the toll? Does it do the same for tag users?

mcwhirter

simples wrote: »

Hey I'm an ex-employee, but I might have a solution as I got this a few times in the call centre..

Have you tried adding the new bank details first, then making the new details the primary payment method, then deleting the old details? Sometimes customers try to delete old details before adding new ones and the system won't normally allow this.

Alternatively if you call the centre they should be fit to do this for you.

Also if you have a tag account you should check out http://www.tagcompare.ie/ as this details the different tag providers and their terms of service.

A lot of people are with EazyPass but I don't know what they are like as a provider.. also it won't guarantee you will still have a problem-free experience. There were always calls coming in from customers of other tag providers getting billed in error.. something which people may note has nothing to do with the call centre provider :P

Hope this helps!!

Thanks, but I now do not have a laser card, so cannot seem to enter a visa card number as the type of card can't be changed. Also when I try entering the account number or direct debit, it says it already exists. Yet no money seems to be debited.

simples

Bond-007 wrote: »

So it asks for the owners details before any default on paying the toll? Does it do the same for tag users?

Correct - as soon as a reg appears on the system the details are obtained from Shannon. Sometimes there can be delays, a couple of hours mostly, or maybe longer. The system will not always get the details as soon as the reg is read, but it will do more often than not.

When someone registers their vehicle on a tag account, the reg is entered and the system gets from Shannon the owner details, and also the car make, model and colour. This helps the person confirm the registration entered is correct.

simples

mcwhirter wrote: »

Thanks, but I now do not have a laser card, so cannot seem to enter a visa card number as the type of card can't be changed. Also when I try entering the account number or direct debit, it says it already exists. Yet no money seems to be debited.

If you have a tag account you need to either pay with a Laser card or provide direct debit details for your bank account. You should be able to see the direct debit details on the system, as the system tells you it already exists, and make them the primary payment method. If not, maybe calling the centre may be best. They will be able to see the history of payment methods on the account and should be able to make the changes for you. If you want, you can make a "One-Time Payment" with your credit card.. you just can't add this as the main payment method.

The system has issues with credit cards on tag accounts (amongst other things lol).. I don't know if this is a flaw or if it is intentional.. it is something we found out not long before the call centre moved so unfortunately I don't have any more info for you on that.

Of course there may be some changes since I lost my job.. though I doubt it. The words "piss up" and "brewery" come to mind

Any other questions feel free to PM or reply!

guitar

and you never know, abtran may now be able to assign money against late trips...rather than forcing everyone to pay again!

BFassassin

I am just after trying to pay for my parents car after they went through yester day but I got this message

"

We were unable to process your request for the following reason:
Referred
Contact: click here.

"

Does anyone know what this would be about?
Thanks


edit: Just did it again and it worked this time. I just hope I dont get charged twice for it.

Tazzle

BFassassin wrote: »

I am just after trying to pay for my parents car after they went through yester day but I got this message

"

We were unable to process your request for the following reason:
Referred
Contact: click here.

"

Does anyone know what this would be about?
Thanks


edit: Just did it again and it worked this time. I just hope I dont get charged twice for it.

Referred is just a fancy word for declined.

Kotek Besar

Tazzle wrote: »

Referred is just a fancy word for declined.

It isn't, it means referred to an agent to decide whether or not to allow the transaction. Usually the merchant is given a number to call to speak to said agent.

simples

benifa wrote: »

It isn't, it means referred to an agent to decide whether or not to allow the transaction. Usually the merchant is given a number to call to speak to said agent.

agents don't and can't decide whether or not to allow a transaction.

this "referral" could have been a problem with the system at the time e.g. could not verify details with the card issuer or some other technical problem; the details may have been entered incorrectly; etc.

you could have contacted an agent but the likelihood is that they won't know why your transaction was not successful, though they should have been able to process it for you themselves.

oh and BFassassin.. make sure you check your card statement to make sure you weren't charged twice, though I don't think you would have been.
if you were, you can request a refund or leave it as a credit for future journeys. if you can't get your statement you can ring the 1890 number and get them to check.

Kotek Besar

simples wrote: »

agents don't and can't decide whether or not to allow a transaction.

<snip>

I didn't mean an Eflow customer service agent, I was referring to the credit card company agents.

If you are a merchant and accept credit card payments, "declined" and "referred" are not the same. The latter means the merchant should contact the credit card processing company for a decision on the transaction.

Carawaystick

simples wrote: »

Have you tried adding the new bank details first, then making the new details the primary payment method, then deleting the old details? Sometimes customers try to delete old details before adding new ones and the system won't normally allow this.

This procedure is sailing close to the wind regarding obeying the data protection act. A data controller must remove old or incorrect data when they are aware of them. Not allowing old bank details to be removed conflicts with this.

Our man in Havana

Yes, there are massive fines for breaching the Data Protection Act.

mcwhirter

Carawaystick wrote: »

This procedure is sailing close to the wind regarding obeying the data protection act. A data controller must remove old or incorrect data when they are aware of them. Not allowing old bank details to be removed conflicts with this.

I called Eflow as had no response from 2 emails I sent. The customer service representative said he can not update direct debit details and that the credit department of eflow have to call me but he could not give me a date or time when they would call. He could only pass on my request to them.
Also he could not delete my old bank details on the website so they are still showing.
I am wondering when they will call as they haven't had any money from me since april, they must be doing well if they don't need my cash is all I can say
This company operates differently to any other I have used before, I am surprised they are still operating with the mess of their customer services.

thebman

Carawaystick wrote: »

This procedure is sailing close to the wind regarding obeying the data protection act. A data controller must remove old or incorrect data when they are aware of them. Not allowing old bank details to be removed conflicts with this.

loads of systems work like this online. If you want to delete your account, you ring them and they'll do it.

Xbox Live works like this with credit card details which I found worrying.

simples

mcwhirter wrote: »

The customer service representative said he can not update direct debit details and that the credit department of eflow have to call me but he could not give me a date or time when they would call. He could only pass on my request to them.

unless things have changed DRASTICALLY in the last month, you won't be getting a call from the credit department. the only people who normally call you are in the contact centre itself.

what they might do is send a support request to head office and await a response from them, or you might get an email, but to be honest I highly doubt a call will come from anyone other than the call centre.

i have tried but can't think of any reason the system wouldn't let the agent change your details, if he can't do it then there's few people who can. maybe when he says "credit department" he means theres yet another system issue that needs looked in to

Sponge Bob

The stupid piece of crap system does not accept Irish Placenames , eg Baile Átha Cliath in the county field . Therefore when they check with Shannon they return no information in the county field even though Shannon accepts Baile Átha Cliath as a county ....because it is a county innit .

BÁC 8 causes similar grief in the Postcode despite being acceptable to Shannon .

An interesting side effect ( I am told) is that the solicitors in Kerry have no idea what to do with serving summonses as they must go to the registered vehicle address .....which of course they cannot get

Our man in Havana

Can they not even get a partial on the addresses?

Sponge Bob

Maybe, not county or postcode is all I know.

I suspect they may not be allowed to 'tamper' with data from Shannon so if it does not import or populate correctly from Shannon to eFlow then they are stumped .

Our man in Havana

So I could change my car to Contae an Lú and they can't touch me?

I would imagine if a reg came back to AN Other, 1 main street, Nenagh they could add in the Tipperary part?