The M50 Barrier Free Tolling Thread

Alun

If you're going to do that I'd suggest you spell conspicuous properly first.

Seth Brundle

As I have only used the barrier free toll once (ouot of necessity) can someone please confirm that it does indeed refer to the €3 toll (and presumably the default tolls for other vehicle types)

Sponge Bob

done Alun

simples

kbannon wrote: »

As I have only used the barrier free toll once (ouot of necessity) can someone please confirm that it does indeed refer to the €3 toll (and presumably the default tolls for other vehicle types)

I have never been on the M50, but from photos I have seen I believe that there are 4 signs northbound and 4 southbound:
The first one advises that you are on a toll road and tells you the applicable charge for each vehicle, starting with cars at €3 then €3.80, €5.10 and so on.
The second one tells you to pay by 8pm the following day, then lists the 1890 number, the website (www.eflow.ie) and a payzone logo.
The third sign is exactly the same as the second.
The fourth sign is the same again, only in Irish.

The first 2 signs are on the road BEFORE the gantries, the second 2 are AFTER the gantries.

The only hint towards further consequences is in mentioning the 8pm deadline. It does not mention additional amounts of €3 or €41.50.

Also I personally would not have known what the Payzone logo refers to. I don't know if this system is widely recognised by the public.
Although, at the same time, I wouldn't be able to use this option unless I was in a Southern reg car.. the vast majority (I know of only 2 exceptions) of Payzone stores can only accept southern style registrations.
But then AGAIN!! They can get these completely wrong.. entering the letter "O" instead of the number "0" etc.

Hope this clarifies the issue of "conspicuous" signage

Our man in Havana

I would say that ultimately the whole house of cards will fall over bad signage if it ever saw the inside of a courtroom.

Sponge Bob

Somebody please photograph all the signs in a given direction ( either the 4 northbound or the four southbound ) and chuck them onto photobucket and PM me please .

TIA

guitar

Sponge bob! You shoulda mentioned about photos last week, BEF actually sent us pictures of the signs, so that we actually believed there were infact signs... But looks like you may have to just hold your camera out the window on the way through




First of, since everyone seems to be adding there own bit of Eflow advice, ill stick mine on


Take your front plate off. Cameras only read the front. There is no other way to get you. Unless its like a delivery truck, with a phone number, name and address on the bonnet.....but even that sounds like too much work for BEF.


You can 'doctor' your plate, but that will simply result in the letter going to some one else....they call....the agent that the reg has been altered, like turning a 1 into a 7 or an 8 into a 6. They can simply transfer it to the right reg....so thats abit pointless to be honest.


When you sell your vehicle...to a garage, MAKE SURE they send the log book of there and then. What tends to happen is the garage keep it, with your signature, waiting for a new buyer for your vehicle. In the mean time, if the garage use it, fines and tolls rack up in your name, and the car could sit in the forcourt for months, still in your name. Saves you the hassle of getting a forest worth of letters


What the other people have been saying, i agree with. Our hands were tied by BEF, if we didnt adhere to scripts, we wouldnt be in the job too long. Things like making people pay twice, and refund them any credit, whoever designed that bit....it is beyond me why.

When you pay, get the account number. Thats where all your money is going. We couldnt do searches on payment reference numbers, so its pretty usless.

The reason BEF stopped letting us waive fines, was because they lost money?? Surely they would have had to HAD the money in the first place to lose it? But it seems that they still allowed Abtran to get rid of the fines....which worked wonders for TP's popularity

Invest in one of http://www.speedflip.com/

We all only found out recently how to reset payment methods on accounts, after hundreds of complaints. Basically if your card expired...and it wasnt updated for that months bill... your account stopped working and unregistered letters came out. Even after the card was updated, still wouldnt take money out...but know we know how to do it


In all honesty, i think TP were the lab rats for Eflow. We tested it, they fixed some of the major problems, instead of explaining the system had problems....blame the call centre. Change the contract? What use will that do? Atleast TP had people with 10 months experience on Eflow, we knew what problems arose. Now theres a bunch of fresh faced agents who will be learning from the customers


Another bit of useful info - If you have an OY reg, make sure that you use the lettes O and not the number 0.

That fires the money to a totally different reg, resulting in letters and upset customers because they know they have paid. Just be wary of this at payzones!

From the Ex Eflowers post, you may realise that we are still doing our jobs, even though we dont have them anymore! We were trained to provide top notch customers service...and besides from one user, who does not represent ANY other agent. Think about it, we can all complain about Eflow, but could you ever complain about the PERSON that answered the phone?


In most cases...i hope not


As the other guys have offered, if anyone needs anything explained more, or simply wants advice from some whos hands aren't tied, PM and we will try our best to help.


And yes, NI, UK and Foreign reg's are being charged. After 8pm, its passed to different toll collector, so its not just you guys paying.

I dont know how many people log onto Boards but like we were told....89000 cars use the road a day, anyone who reads this... dont pay your toll on the i duno....say 31st of August! Eflows Birthday If they miss even 1000 payments... how much havoc will that create? ;p

I also have another question....did ANYONE ever get a reciept sent out? There was an option to do it, but im pretty sure it was just there for show...


Cant think of anthing else right now, but im sure ill be back

Capt'n Midnight

Out of curiousity what happens if you make a genuine effort to pay the toll

sending a postal order or cheque to head office

if you send cash by registered letter ( legal tender in coins ) ?
or hand deliver it to their head office


or if you pay half the toll now and a cover letter detailing how you will pay the rest in installments - can they sue you for not paying the full amount ?


or over pay the toll with cash / cheque and ask for the rest back. If you don't get it then take them to the small claims court and then refuse to pay further tolls until the matter is resloved.



alternatively get everyone you know will never be near the M50 to register for video tolling, so they get sent regular statements

simples

Cheques and postal orders aren't an advertised method of payment, and in the centre we always recommended heavily against these. The time delay involved between sending, receiving and processing the cheque can take some time, and fines will continue to accrue while the cheque is being cleared.
If you are going to do this, make sure you date the cheque and send the letter before the 8pm deadline to cover yourself as much as possible, but I can offer no guarantees as to the outcome. I don't know if they are legally obliged to accept cheques and/or postal orders.

Sending cash in the post is always iffy, and good luck finding the head office!!

Paying in instalments also sounds dodgy, they request full payment within the deadline so not receiving this will likely mean fines are incurred.

They didn't even offer us the option of offering instalments to customers who had racked up large debts in the hundreds or thousands of euros, so for a €3 toll its highly unlikely!

If you over-pay you can request a refund of the credit which can take up to 30 days to process. Normally this is sent out as a cheque, or if you paid by your card this may also be an option.

Video registrations may be the best idea.. although I was advised that paper statements are only sent out quarterly. Registration does mean that fines aren't accrued (so long as your payments don't fail!!)

Carawaystick

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A 1980 act , not sure about that . It may also exclude road tolls ( even back then) from its scope but I have not checked .

The consumer protection act is a new law, 2007 I think. set up celia larkin in the consumer protection agency among other things. ..


The speed limit at the toll on westlink is 100km/h not 50 so the signs'd need to be *very* conspicuous.....

ART6

Since the whole system seems to be another shambles created by a government that can't get anything right if it involves more than boiling a kettle, I wonder what would happen if everyone simply stopped paying the tolls?

*Mods, I am not daring to suggest that anyone should do that and thereby break the law. I just wonder what BEF would do*

zednanrefnomar

guitar wrote: »

Another bit of useful info - If you have an OY reg, make sure that you use the letter O and not the number 0.

So if the shop assistant enters 05 0Y nnnn instead of 05 OY nnnn,
zero five zero Y nnnn is not a correct format registration so there is no possibility that anyone else will get the bill in error.

And I have seen a friend's receipt where the shop assisitant left out the year of the registration and only entered the county letters and the numbers. My friend didn't realise the mistake at the time, but sure enough got a letter in the post demanding payment.

My question is, shouldn't the system recognise these incorrect format registrations and collect them in some electronic file, which could then be compared against missing payments, to match up the ones which were actually paid.

Sponge Bob

We use UK road design standards which require signs readable by the 85th percentile of traffic USING a road .

This means that if the limit is 100kph and if 85% of cars do 60kph ( or less) on that stretch the signs should be readable at 60kph for that 85% and the others are not important

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/trafficsignsmanualchapter7.pdf


Page 14

2.20 The overall size of a sign is determined by the
chosen x-height. This will depend on the type of sign
and, in most cases, the 85 percentile speed of
vehicles using the road. There is a range of standard
x-heights from 15 mm (for some waiting restriction
time plates not intended to be read from moving
vehicles) to 400 mm (for motorway signs). Some signs
have specific x-heights prescribed by the Regulations.
However, many signs, particularly directional
informatory signs, have only minimum and maximum
used, but it is recommended that the main x-height
should be to the nearest 5 mm.

The table of x-heights
for directional signs in Appendix A of Local Transport
Note 1 / 94 lists the standard sizes of 50, 60, 75, 100,
125, 150, 200, 250, 300 and 400 mm. Intermediate
x-heights may be used where this would have siting
advantages (e.g. spanning a footway) without
compromising the target value and legibility of the
sign.

This affects the desired SIZE of a sign rather than the content underpinning its legality but I would think that the NRA has probably written the information at the correct size for a 50kph 85th percentile and not an 80kph 85th percentile .

Not a key argument but an extra proof of NRA negligence I would think ( on faster stretches if all the signs have the same font size )

simples

zednanrefnomar wrote: »

So if the shop assistant enters 05 0Y nnnn instead of 05 OY nnnn,
zero five zero Y nnnn is not a correct format registration so there is no possibility that anyone else will get the bill in error.

And I have seen a friend's receipt where the shop assisitant left out the year of the registration and only entered the county letters and the numbers. My friend didn't realise the mistake at the time, but sure enough got a letter in the post demanding payment.

My question is, shouldn't the system recognise these incorrect format registrations and collect them in some electronic file, which could then be compared against missing payments, to match up the ones which were actually paid.

050Ynnnn (ZERO FIVE ZERO Y etc) may be a foreign number plate. The system takes whatever is entered as if it is a correct registration. Even if there was a file with erroneous registrations, what is the likelihood that amendments would be made by 8pm of the day after the journey? Slim to nil I would say!

I said before and will say again to ensure that if you make a payment in store, to ensure the shop assistant confirms the reg using phonetics where possible e.g. zero five oscar yankee one two three four. Try not to say "oh" instead of "zero" or "nought" to help avoid mistakes too.

And always always check your receipt in the store!!!
Take up any issues with the person who served you and/or their manager.

slimjimmc

guitar wrote: »

Take your front plate off.

guitar wrote: »

You can 'doctor' your plate,

guitar wrote: »

Invest in one of http://www.speedflip.com/

I'm sure you wouldn't be encouraging people to break the law here? I don't use the toll bridge since this barrier-free less fiasco was introduced but I believe from previous posts on Boards.ie that the Gardai regularily look out for this kind of thing around there. I'm sure the penalty, if caught commiting such offence, would be far far more severe than a €3 toll.

guitar wrote: »

When you sell your vehicle...to a garage, MAKE SURE they send the log book of there and then. What tends to happen is the garage keep it, with your signature, waiting for a new buyer for your vehicle. In the mean time, if the garage use it, fines and tolls rack up in your name, and the car could sit in the forcourt for months, still in your name. Saves you the hassle of getting a forest worth of letters

If you sell your car, to anyone private or garage, you should have documentation e.g sales receipt / change of ownership which proves when the sale took place.

guitar wrote: »

Atleast TP had people with 10 months experience on Eflow, we knew what problems arose. Now theres a bunch of fresh faced agents who will be learning from the customers

God help them, sounds like they're in for a hard time.

guitar wrote: »

From the Ex Eflowers post, you may realise that we are still doing our jobs, even though we dont have them anymore! We were trained to provide top notch customers service...and besides from one user, who does not represent ANY other agent. Think about it, we can all complain about Eflow, but could you ever complain about the PERSON that answered the phone?


In most cases...i hope not

Can't be easy to stay motivated under such cirumstances. Unfortunately you're on the receiving end because the general public don't see the distinction between E-flow and TP, in their eyes you are E-flow (which sits very well with E-flow I'm sure).

Our man in Havana

If you sell your car, to anyone private or garage, you should have documentation e.g sales receipt / change of ownership which proves when the sale took place.

No use unless you send the documents to Shannon yourself. Never trust a garage to do it.
Unless Shannon receive the docs all the sales receipts in the world will not save you. It is your responsibility to register a change of ownership.

slimjimmc

Bond-007 wrote: »

No use unless you send the documents to Shannon yourself. Never trust a garage to do it.
Unless Shannon receive the docs all the sales receipts in the world will not save you. It is your responsibility to register a change of ownership.

The change in ownership takes place long before Shannon get to register it. As seller (which was the scenario quoted by Guitar) you would have the necessary documents to prove when the actual change occurred. Such documents are sufficient evidence for the courts in traffic offences so they're good enough for E-flow imo. Responsibility for submitting the forms to Shannon is irrelevant in this context.

Of course, until Shannon actually process the change, the records will still show you (seller) as the registered owner so you'll continue to get the Eflow letters and demands (and possibly summons if you ignore them). However if you send Eflow a copy of your paperwork you won't be held liable for tolls or offenses incurred after you sold the car.

That's my take on it anyways.

simples

slimjimmc wrote: »

The change in ownership takes place long before Shannon get to register it. As seller (which was the scenario quoted by Guitar) you would have the necessary documents to prove when the actual change occurred. Such documents are sufficient evidence for the courts in traffic offences so they're good enough for E-flow imo. Responsibility for submitting the forms to Shannon is irrelevant in this context.

Of course, until Shannon actually process the change, the records will still show you (seller) as the registered owner so you'll continue to get the Eflow letters and demands (and possibly summons if you ignore them). However if you send Eflow a copy of your paperwork you won't be held liable for tolls or offenses incurred after you sold the car.

That's my take on it anyways.

Exactly right! While you may be the registered owner according to the Vehicle Registration Unit in Shannon, if you did not own the car at the time of the journeys then you won't have to pay for them. But you will still have the hassle of letters, phone calls, and proving the sale to take care of.

It was a frequent problem though.. people would ring up saying they sold the car 2, 3, 6 months or even a number of years previously but it was still in their name. It is the old owner's responsibility, and in their best interests, to get the car out of their name as soon as possible. If it is in your name 6 months down the line and the garage take it for a spin on the M50 for the craic or sell it on, you will be the one to get the letters.

I would echo the recommendation of getting the log book sent off immediately. Do it yourself, if possible, rather than relying on the garage.

Sinderella

I would never be able to read and write down the eflow payment phone number while travelling at 100kph. So I was really clever and looked up the number online before I left home. Yay me!... or so I thought...
Arrived up the north, called the 1890 number to pay the toll, guess what? The number doesn't work from the north and I wasn't returning for 4 days.

According to the lovely girl on the phone, there is another number and I should've known that. So tough **** for me.
Not only do they require payment in 48hrs or less but they also require us to have full access to psychic powers. :mad:

I'm not paying the fine. Their list of inconvenient methods of payment is endless. If the road is tolled, it should be tolled because it is making my journer easier!

BTW, I was registered online but had changed my car so the reason I actually went online was to switch over my reg. But, I forgot my password and in true inconvenient eflow style, you can't request a new one unless you remember some id number or something... who knows, i can't remember! Why can't you just request it with your email address!!!? :mad:

Anyway... Thanks for all the info sponge bob and ex employees too. Great! Keep it flowing, just like the M50 traffic

Seth Brundle

M50 toll collectors pushing the envelope

Tuesday June 23 2009

LAWYERS acting for the authority that collects M50 tolls are being forced to use increasingly creative methods to extract the €3 charge from drivers who fail to pay.

Court summonses are being posted in fancy envelopes to ensure toll dodgers get notification that they're being prosecuted for not paying the toll on Dublin's ring road. The letters are sent by registered post, meaning the subject must sign to accept delivery. The thinking behind the ruse is that someone is more likely to accept a letter that promises a day out, than an official-looking envelope that only promises bad news.

The debt-collection industry is well-known for using creative ways to get people to accept a court summons. The National Roads Authority (NRA) confirmed that "every option" was being considered to ensure that people were made aware of their court date. Yesterday, the first of the 766 motorists who have been issued summonses for refusing to pay the M50 toll were due to appear in Dublin District Court.

Deadline

NRA spent much of the morning making arrangements to have outstanding bills of 25 people paid off.

They told Judge David Anderson that the 25 cases would be adjourned until July 27 next to allow a payment schedule to be drawn up. Of the 766 summons issued, 350 have been served. The vast majority are for motorists living in the greater Dublin area.

Motorists who choose the pay as you go option must pay a €3 toll by 8pm the day after their journey is made. If the deadline is missed, a €3 penalty is added.

If this is not paid within 14 days, €41.50 is added on. If the bill is not settled within 56 days, another €104.50 is levied.

Failure to pay results in a summons being issued.

- Paul Melia

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/m50-toll-collectors-pushing-the-envelope-1784850.html

Kotek Besar

Sending something by registered post proves nothing, only that it was delivered at that address and signed for by someone.

That someone could be anyone. The babysitter or cleaner, for example.

Sending something registered is no more indicative of it being received by the addressee, than sending it through normal post.

Zube

benifa wrote: »

Sending something registered is no more indicative of it being received by the addressee, than sending it through normal post.

Unless the addressee is the one who signs for it...

Kotek Besar

Zube wrote: »

Unless the addressee is the one who signs for it...

Ok, but how is that indicative to the sender? How would the sender know who signed for it?

Seth Brundle

benifa wrote: »

Sending something by registered post proves nothing, only that it was delivered at that address and signed for by someone.

That someone could be anyone. The babysitter or cleaner, for example.

Sending something registered is no more indicative of it being received by the addressee, than sending it through normal post.

Is it not accepted by a court that the company went as far as they reasonably could to serve the summons?

Kotek Besar

kbannon wrote: »

Is it not accepted by a court that the company went as far as they reasonably could to serve the summons?

That's a good point.

Seth Brundle

on this note: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/businessman-made-a-run-for-it-when-served-with-lawsuit-1784852.html
idiot!

Our man in Havana

Registered post is considered good service for District Court summonses. If the crafty person refuses to sign for the letter an application will be made to serve the summons by regular post. This is then considered good service by the court.

Our man in Havana

kbannon wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/m50-toll-collectors-pushing-the-envelope-1784850.html

More propaganda to scare the little people into paying.

So 25 have accepted their fate. Of course they don't say how many are being fought on various points of law.

Toto Wolfcastle

I had a look at the signs on my way through the toll today and didn't see anything about the fines so does that mean they definitely wont stand up in court?

A family member of mine has started working in the Eflow call centre. Poor girl.

Our man in Havana

janeybabe wrote: »

I had a look at the signs on my way through the toll today and didn't see anything about the fines so does that mean they definitely wont stand up in court?

My opinion would be they would have severe problems making it stand up on the basis of the existing signage.
I suspect they will amend the signs when they loose a few cases in court.