Nazi Stall in Balbriggan Market

peasant

Ariya Swift Gunsmith wrote: »

What the hell did he pick this sign for anyway? What exact reason?

Because it looked good

At the time it was thought (wrongly) that the swastika was a symbol of the early "arians" from which Hitlers infamous Arian-German-Superrace had descended.

So he fiddled with it a bit and designed the NS swastika as we know it, black on white with red background. Very placative, instantly recognizable, with strong colours and lines ...the perfect party symbol.

And yes, apparantly he did design the NS flag himself.

peasant

Ronanc1 wrote: »

My point really is that not everyone who was a nazi believed in ethnic cleansing or violence some nazis were good people example being oskar schindler as well as that, many who belonged to the nazi party were so involved because of the partys aims and promises, self suffiency as well as a national pride and so on

You're skewing things a bit here.

Initially the Nazi party did recruit on nationalist/socialist points ...that is correct. But as soon as they came into power that changed. They didn't recruit any more, they converted with force. You either were a member of the Nazi party (or at least a willing collaborateur) or you ended up in a concentration camp ...simple as that.

It is therefore correct to say that not every member of the Nazi part directly belived in ethnic cleansing ...they may in fact not have believed in anything that the Nazi party stood for.

But here's my point:

You're making it sound like the Nazi movement basically had lots of good points and was just spoiled by a few rotten apples at the top that got "carried away a bit"

The opposite is the case. Nazi ideology and its chief supporters were evil through and through right from the start. But they were also very clever. They rose to power on what (at the time and in the circumstances) were points and arguments that appealed to just enough people (33% of the voting public) to get them into governement.

Once they were in power, the first thing they did was kill off the more socialist element of their leadership, quickly followed by gaining totalitarian control of the whole of Germany and then most of Europe.

Saying "it wasn't all bad" is just wrong. Because it was all bad ...and meant to be that way.

Lockstep

Ariya Swift Gunsmith wrote: »

What is QFT?

Quoted for Truth.

I agreed with what Mairt said.

Ronanc1

You're making it sound like the Nazi movement basically had lots of good points and was just spoiled by a few rotten apples at the top that got "carried away a bit"

im saying no such thing i would be the first person to condemn nazism and its heinous crimes

Saying "it wasn't all bad" is just wrong. Because it was all bad ...and meant to be that way

i dont think i said anything like that either. maybe you should learn to quote people a little better

My point and noticing where we are we have digressed, is there should be no problem to some guy selling some fugging flags and ash trays that bear the swastika many people collect historical pieces thats all they are, now if he were actively encouraging antisemitism and so on of course you have a problem but other than that there shouldnt be such a hullabaloo over some guy making a bit of dosh of some nazi memorabilia

peasant

Ronanc1 wrote: »

My point and noticing where we are we have digressed, is there should be no problem to some guy selling some fugging flags and ash trays that bear the swastika many people collect historical pieces thats all they are, now if he were actively encouraging antisemitism and so on of course you have a problem but other than that there shouldnt be such a hullabaloo over some guy making a bit of dosh of some nazi memorabilia

There is a point where a historical piece crosses the line and becomes a symbol for something completely different.

Simple example ...a wooden cross.

Historically it was an instrument of torture in the Roman empire ...so out of historical interest you could be selling things with a cross on it as "Roman artefacts"

But everybody knows that this symbol now stands for something else. In the case of the cross it is a religion.

In the case of the swastica its just sheer inhuman evil.

Your "it's just a piece of history"-argument just doesn't wash

Ronanc1

"it's just a piece of history"-argument just doesn't wash

thats fine, it doesnt wash with you but there are others here who cited their opinion as the same as my own, its just a piece of history,

view it how ever you like, at this point i couldnt really care

Nodin

peasant wrote: »

:

You're making it sound like the Nazi movement basically had lots of good points and was just spoiled by a few rotten apples at the top that got "carried away a bit".

He might have problems with the concept.

Carried away a bit = mandatory military service, curfew on the streets, banning a newspaper or two.

Carried away a bit =/= concentration camps, systematic brutality and killings, racism, book burnings, intimidation.

(and thats all before 1934, IMO).

peasant wrote:

Historically it was an instrument of torture in the Roman empire ...so out of historical interest you could be selling things with a cross on it as "Roman artefacts"

But everybody knows that this symbol now stands for something else. In the case of the cross it is a religion.

In the case of the swastica its just sheer inhuman evil.

Your "it's just a piece of history"-argument just doesn't wash

The collection of nazi memorbilia, in particular antique items, does not a nazi make. Theres a large market for racist memorbilia in the states, for instance, yet thats because its something from an era now gone (and hopefully for good).

peasant

Nodin wrote: »

The collection of nazi memorbilia, in particular antique items, does not a nazi make. Theres a large market for racist memorbilia in the states, for instance, yet thats because its something from an era now gone (and hopefully for good).

Well, my granny threw away the copy of "Mein Kampf" that she was given on her wedding day by the Nazi official that performed the wedding ...even though it had the hand written wedding vows and dedication from her late husband (who died during the war) written on the first page.

THAT was memorabilia.

What these guys are selling/collecting is incitement to hatred.

MooseJam

The PC brigade is on the charge.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

peasant wrote: »

Well, my granny threw away the copy of "Mein Kampf" that she was given on her wedding day by the Nazi official that performed the wedding ...even though it had the hand written wedding vows and dedication from her late husband (who died during the war) written on the first page.

THAT was memorabilia.

What these guys are selling/collecting is incitement to hatred.

No offence but it is how you percieve it... What I might think is memorabilia you may find offensive, you know?

ShooterSF

peasant wrote: »

There is a point where a historical piece crosses the line and becomes a symbol for something completely different.

Simple example ...a wooden cross.

Historically it was an instrument of torture in the Roman empire ...so out of historical interest you could be selling things with a cross on it as "Roman artefacts"

But everybody knows that this symbol now stands for something else. In the case of the cross it is a religion.

In the case of the swastica its just sheer inhuman evil.

Your "it's just a piece of history"-argument just doesn't wash

Hey if it gets the cross banned Im all for banning symbols so. Those horrible romans!!

peasant

MooseJam wrote: »

The PC brigade is on the charge.

Nope ...I detest "political correctness"

Here's a different thought ...

You know, these pictures from concentration camps (or maybe you've seen one yourself) where they have this massive pile of shoes from the gassed victims as a memorial.

Would you like to "collect" one of those shoes and display it in your home?

Nope ..you wouldn't ...it just wouldn't be right, just wouldn't.

So why would you want to collect "memorabilia" from the regime that created the pile of shoes in the first place?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

It's still memorabilia, regardless if it is evil or good. It's a part of history. You see the amount of stuff in museums that is related to wars and all the bad that is linked to wars?

The collecting of this type or material is not bad. People collect odd things and I see nothing wrong with it what so ever. Using items to promote a movement, like that dude in one of the southern states of america (sorry no link ) would be completely wrong.

peasant

Ariya Swift Gunsmith wrote: »

It's still memorabilia, regardless if it is evil or good. It's a part of history. You see the amount of stuff in museums that is related to wars and all the bad that is linked to wars?

The collecting of this type or material is not bad. People collect odd things and I see nothing wrong with it what so ever. Using items to promote a movement, like that dude in one of the southern states of america (sorry no link ) would be completely wrong.

I see your point and to a degree I would agree.
I would argue however that with Nazi memorabilia the line between collecting historical items and promoting a movement/ideology is indeed a very, very fine one.

I can live with the idea of the odd genuine Nazi "artefact" being traded at an antiques fair (Even though personally I'd never want to buy one) but according to the link in the first post of this thread the guys in Balbriggan sell

Nazi memorabilia, including swastikas, ashtrays and anti-semetic DVDs

That would be genuine DVDs from 1940, yes?
And the flags and other crap they sell is really from the period ...or was it just printed/made last week.

What these guys are selling is not "memorabilia" ...it's disgusting and should be forbidden by law.

If that law then means in consequence that there will be no more genuine "artefacts" traded at antiques fairs ..well, I for one could live with that "loss"

MooseJam

how would you feel about something like this

http://www.ehistorybuff.com/enolagaycrewREDO07.html

Kold

peasant wrote: »

I see your point and to a degree I would agree.
I would argue however that with Nazi memorabilia the line between collecting historical items and promoting a movement/ideology is indeed a very, very fine one.

I can live with the idea of the odd genuine Nazi "artefact" being traded at an antiques fair (Even though personally I'd never want to buy one) but according to the link in the first post of this thread the guys in Balbriggan sell

That would be genuine DVDs from 1940, yes?
And the flags and other crap they sell is really from the period ...or was it just printed/made last week.

What these guys are selling is not "memorabilia" ...it's disgusting and should be forbidden by law.

If that law then means in consequence that there will be no more genuine "artefacts" traded at antiques fairs ..well, I for one could live with that "loss"

Oh come the f*ck off it. People have a right to be as racist as they like in their own homes. It's one of the stipulations of freedom.

As for the DVDs, I don't think I can find original cinematic reels of Kenneth Angers/Jean Luc Godard's classics. Should Wagner be banned?

peasant

MooseJam wrote: »

how would you feel about something like this

http://www.ehistorybuff.com/enolagaycrewREDO07.html

queezy

I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable having it at home.


But that isn't the same as Nazi symbolism.
We could argue the finer points of how necessary or wrong it was to drop the a-bomb on Japan until the cows come home. Horrible as that was ...the Enola Gay (and any "memorabilia" associated with it) will never carry the same message of inhumanity that a nazi flag does.

This
http://media.tribune.ie/site_media/photologue/photos/2008/Aug/02/cache/nazi_seller_display.jpg
isn't just a German period flag from the second world war. It stands for so many things that were wrong then and are still wrong today.
It is still used today by people who promote those ideas ...and that is the real issue. A nazi flag still carries a message today, it is never just a historical item.

peasant

Kold wrote: »

Oh come the f*ck off it. People have a right to be as racist as they like in their own homes.

Do they ?

It's one of the stipulations of freedom.

That's a philosophical question really, but in my opinion, racism (whether "private" or not) and freedom will never go together.

Kold

peasant wrote: »

This
http://media.tribune.ie/site_media/photologue/photos/2008/Aug/02/cache/nazi_seller_display.jpg
isn't just a German period flag from the second world war. It stands for so many things that were wrong then and are still wrong today.
It is still used today by people who promote those ideas ...and that is the real issue. A nazi flag still carries a message today, it is never just a historical item.

That may be true but taking an interest, subscribing to certain views should not be a crime unless there is a direct violation on another person.


As for saying that Hiroshima was not as inhumane as the holocaust, that's just callous to me.

Kold

peasant wrote: »

Do they ? That's a philosophical question really, but in my opinion, racism (whether "private" or not) and freedom will never go together.

Policing people's thoughts is a facist tendency.

peasant

Kold wrote: »

As for saying that Hiroshima was not as inhumane as the holocaust, that's just callous to me.

I didn't say that.
What I said is that a nazi flag carries a far stronger message than a picture of Enola Gay.

For starters, you don't have to explain a nazi flag to people ...everybody knows what it stands for and what was done under it.

Policing people's thoughts is a facist tendency.

So is selling/buying fascist symbolism

That may be true but taking an interest, subscribing to certain views should not be a crime unless there is a direct violation on another person.

I would agree to the extent that I wouldn't like to live in a state where your thoughts (i.e. not your actions) are policed ...(that would be kinda like living in the nazi era, wouldn't it? )
But I do think that the sale of items that promote hatred/racism should be banned ...you can still think what you like ...you just can't sell/promote it.

Kold

peasant wrote: »

I didn't say that.
What I said is that a nazi flag carries a far stronger message than a picture of Enola Gay.

For starters, you don't have to explain a nazi flag to people ...everybody knows what it stands for and what was done under it.

Which is why we've heard stories of ignorant people being offended by swastikas that pre-date Nazi Germany. The bigger deal that's made out of it, the worse off we are. We can't just bury the events of the Third Reich but people need proper education on it. It's not our business, the conclusions people draw when properly informed.

I'm fairly sure people who buy this stuff are completely aware of the message it carries and that's their right. As long as they aren't rounding up ethnic minorities and killing them that's fine with me.

Nodin

peasant wrote: »

Well, my granny threw away the copy of "Mein Kampf" that she was given on her wedding day by the Nazi official that performed the wedding ...even though it had the hand written wedding vows and dedication from her late husband (who died during the war) written on the first page.

THAT was memorabilia.

What these guys are selling/collecting is incitement to hatred.

So If I collect items from the Cromwellian era, and specifically parliamentary items, I support the massacre at Drogheda and the Plantation?

peasant wrote: »

If that law then means in consequence that there will be no more genuine "artefacts" traded at antiques fairs ..well, I for one could live with that "loss".

...the best way of dealing with book burners being to burn some books.

peasant wrote: »

It is still used today by people who promote those ideas ...and that is the real issue. A nazi flag still carries a message today, it is never just a historical item.".

And you take that attitude with the George Cross and Union flag?

peasant wrote: »

But I do think that the sale of items that promote hatred/racism should be banned ....".

....but wouldn't be bothered if that affected sales of antiques and historical documents, as you pointed out before.

asdasd

But I do think that the sale of items that promote hatred/racism should be banned ...you can still think what you like ...you just can't sell/promote it.

Why the / in hatred/racism. Either you are opposed to items that promote racism, or hatred, or both. If you oppose hatred ( as well as racism) then the CCCP flag, and other anarchist or marxist flags promote hatred of the bourgeoisie ( in fact Marxism demands their extermination) . Depending on how the burgeois is defined it can mean large scale capitalists, smallscale capitalists, the middle classes, or even technical workers, and basically anyone who opposes their agenda.

All marxism is a form of hatred for the existing order and most poeple in it, and since by their own definition ethnicity and class are both cultural constructs then hatred can be defined as equal for both. Eliminating the cultural construct that is the Kulaks is exactly the same as eliminating a ethnic group, if both are social constructs.

As for what the NAZiis did in terms of genocide, their philosophy was not more supremacist than the British Empire, or indeed the US at the time ( albeit towards different groups - Indians, Native Americans) and their actions - the extermination of an ethnic group in Europe, corresponds exactly the actions of the Turkish Republic.


Ban all these flags, or ban none.

marco murphy

Eliminating the cultural construct that is the Kulaks is exactly the same as eliminating a ethnic group, if both are social constructs.

Eliminating Kulaks? Explain.

wes

asdasd wrote: »

the extermination of an ethnic group in Europe, corresponds exactly the actions of the Turkish Republic.

WTF? The Turkish Republic came into existence after the Armenian genocide. Kinda hard to engage in genocide, when you don't exist. The people behind the genocide of the Armenians, was the Ottoman Empire, which was run by the Turks, true. Still the 2 government are very different animals.

peasant

To all of the above ...Georges Cross, Cromwell, the flag of the Soviet Union, pictures of Josip Bros Stalin, etc, pp ...

Piffle !

The Nazi flag is THE international symbol for fascim, genocide, racial hatred, disregard for other human beings and any other vile idea that springs to mind.

There are even Jewish Neo-nazis waving it, ffs..

Nodin

peasant wrote: »

To all of the above ...Georges Cross, Cromwell, the flag of the Soviet Union, pictures of Josip Bros Stalin, etc, pp .....

So its ok for your personal bugbear to be trod upon, but the symbol of oppression for 40 years for Latvians, Estonians Lithuanians, Ukranians, Poles and many others (including eastern European Jews) is insufficiently evil.

MooseJam

peasant wrote: »

To all of the above ...Georges Cross, Cromwell, the flag of the Soviet Union, pictures of Josip Bros Stalin, etc, pp ...

Piffle !

The Nazi flag is THE international symbol for fascim, genocide, racial hatred, disregard for other human beings and any other vile idea that springs to mind.

There are even Jewish Neo-nazis waving it, ffs..

Yeah but it's only THE blah blah because the allies built them up as so, to try and ensure the Germans didn't get stroppy again, however they weren't any worse than anybody else of that period, everybody was killing everybody

Terry

The Nazis did it in a few short years.
The British, Russians, Spanish, French, Dutch and so forth were more insidious in their mass slaughter of others.