DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

Do I hear heat pump ? Seriously the blanket 10kWhr/m2/year requirement should be scaled back to require less for the better built property . Will make the point during consultation period for next TGD L upgrade , expected next year

.

yes, it seems like the closer a house gets to best energy conservation, the more they are crucified from 2008 part l...

id love to see what impact this has on passive houses.....

topcatcbr

Have you tried putting log burning stove as secondry heat source. with the solar. It should be enough.

I agree that this should be changed and put as a percentage of required energy.

As you have said a passive house wouldnt require this amount of energy.

sydthebeat

topcatcbr wrote: »

Have you tried putting log burning stove as secondry heat source. with the solar. It should be enough.

I agree that this should be changed and put as a percentage of required energy.

As you have said a passive house wouldnt require this amount of energy.

well, i currently have a wood pellet stove as secondary with solar... and theres no difference between pellet and log... (in my calcs anyway)...

I must admit.. its also very interesting to see the changes in output when you mess around with the cylinder size and dedicated storage size with solar heating..... it might be a good way to spec a system by finding teh optimum configuration.....

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

just as a further point to my last post in this thread...

this particular dwelling im doing a prelim on...

300 sq m...

Ive upgraded construction to an A3 rating (67)
I have incorporated 8 sq m of flat plate solar collectors and a wood pellet as secondary heating....

and it STILL does not meet the renewable requirements to satisfy 2008 part L.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

This to me screams that anyone starting to build, and assuming not substantially complete by june 30.... then they will be in a very precarious position if they havent a good construction specification and a prelim BER before they turn a sod.....

i wonder not that building control isnt as busy *cough* as they used to be, will they be forceful in inspecting to ensure complaince..... i doubt it!...

Syd see what happens if you change your primary heating to wood pellet, omitt the wood pellet stove, use a simple multi fuel stove (way cheaper) and turn the solar on and off

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

Syd see what happens if you change your primary heating to wood pellet, omitt the wood pellet stove, use a simple multi fuel stove (way cheaper) and turn the solar on and off

yes, the renewables jump to 38 kw/hr m2 with both solar on and off and as above...

but the rating jumps down about 10kw/hr between solar being on / off....

unfortunately theres a feeling out there that:
1. good quality pellets in bulk are hard to find
2. you need to build a substantial well constructed shed to store them
3. you need to provide substantial hard surface area for bulk delivery

if anyone wants to comment on this maybe we can open a new thread to 'de-bunk' these views....

No6

yes, the renewables jump to 38 kw/hr m2 with both solar on and off and as above...

but the rating jumps down about 10kw/hr between solar being on / off....

unfortunately theres a feeling out there that:

So wood pellet alone will provide the renewable requirement!!!

1. good quality pellets in bulk are hard to find

Rubbish put about by opposing vested interests the pellets are fine as long as you keep them dry!!.

2. you need to build a substantial well constructed shed to store them

Clean dry storage and delivery of peelets to the boiler is the key to a sucessful instalation. The best option is to have as you suggest a garage, preferable witht eh pellet storage at high level feeding by gravity to the boiler hopper so there no bits to break down. I have a completely external insatllation and have had loads of trouble with the auger and it motor so best avoid these like the plague!!!

3. you need to provide substantial hard surface area for bulk delivery

within about 20m of your inlet pipe, the truck is possible a little bigger than an oil truck and needs to get a little closer

if anyone wants to comment on this maybe we can open a new thread to 'de-bunk' these views....

Hows this for a start!!

MEONLY

buzymc wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Im hoping some of you may be able to help me with a query regarding a BER assessment on an existing dwelling.

The front door of the dwelling is partially glazed (20%) uPVC.
If it was a timber door I would work out the u-value based on the the 3W/m²K for the 80% surface area and the glazing u-value for the 20% surface area (DEAP Manual table 6a).
Am i correct in saying that table 6a it doesnt give a value for a uPVC frame? Or do I just use 4.8 for a single glazed door?

Thanks a mill.

From memory.
1.You must have >60% of the door glazed if you want to count the glazing area and then you treat it as a window and input it as a window (not a door) Your 20% glazing is a door.

2. You must be suitably qualified to certify U values or produce certified U Value from someone who is qualified.

3. When you input area of door etc a default U Value is applied. I suspect that this applies to your situation.
I hope I'm correct about this. This is my understanding how this works.

sydthebeat

MEONLY wrote: »

From memory.
1.You must have >60% of the door glazed if you want to count the glazing area and then you treat it as a window and input it as a window (not a door) Your 20% glazing is a door.

2. You must be suitably qualified to certify U values or produce certified U Value from someone who is qualified.

3. When you input area of door etc a default U Value is applied. I suspect that this applies to your situation.
I hope I'm correct about this. This is my understanding how this works.

what does this mean?

MEONLY

sydthebeat wrote: »

what does this mean?

The context is existing dwellings--different from New build

Our course providers told us that we could not calc U-Value in such a senerio. We would have to produce documented evidence from supplier of door/factory etc giving the U-Value. Otherwise use the default value.

The idea being (I think) that the door might be say 50 years old and its U-Value degraded/never had a proper U-Value rating. Many if not most "existing" do not have documented evidence from fitter/installer etc.

DIY internal insulation fitted 20 years ago can also be a problem. It seems to be a bit rough on the owner as it does not seem to give full credit.

dunie001

I'm doing a BER CER for an existing Dwelling at the moment and have encountered two issues:

Q. There are two open fires in the house...Do I enter only one Open Fire as having factor of 0.1 or Do I enter the two open fires as a factor of 0.2???
Also if one of the secondary systems is a stove/electric heater, what do I enter as the secondary system, as there is only one space for efficiency?


Q. There is also an unheated Garage in the Dwelling. The garage is separated by a solid concrete block wall (no insulation) and an internal door. I have treated it as an unheated space that is thermally seperated (by block wall)
Is this correct?

DEAP are extremely vague as to how to deal with the above two scenarios:

For Garages, it says:

• should be included if heating is provided within the garage from the main central heating system;

• should not be included where the garage is thermally separated from the dwelling and is not heated by the central heating system

• a garage which is physically separated from the dwelling, ie only accessible from a separate external door, but is heated by the main heating system. Is to be included in the floor area.

Secondary systems:

• If a dwelling has a number of secondary space heating systems.
  Select the secondary heater that heats the greater number of rooms and if this does not resolve the choice select the system which is cheapest to run.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

That actually solves my first problem:D...but any ideas on the Garage???

dunie001

It's alright...I actually solved the problem myself...but i'll post the solution now for all of you to know...

The Exterior wall u-value for the house is 0.6 and the u-value for a stone wall (1983-1993) is also 0.6...so the block wall can be considered a thermal seperator.

Answer: The U value of the elements separating this space from the rest of the dwelling must not be more than 10% greater than the corresponding exposed elements. i.e. Separating ‘partition’ wall u-value less than (Exterior wall u-value + 10%)

dunie001

Ok I've a good question now:


Q. How on Earth do you find out what the low-E coatings are on the Double glazing/triple glazing in an existing house, and if there is air or argon in the cavity...and also how wide the gap actually is??????

I managed to get the manufacturer of the glass (VistaTherm K) and a BS standard (BS 5713) and a date of manufacture(??) that is printed on the metal strip in the cavity of the glazing but beyond that i'm stumped!!!

Obviously the coatings make quite a difference to the energy rating...and if this info could be obtained it could mean the difference between an F and an E2...PLEASE HELP!!!:eek:

sydthebeat

dunie001 wrote: »

Ok I've a good question now:


Q. How on Earth do you find out what the low-E coatings are on the Double glazing/triple glazing in an existing house, and if there is air or argon in the cavity...and also how wide the gap actually is??????

I managed to get the manufacturer of the glass (VistaTherm K) and a BS standard (BS 5713) and a date of manufacture(??) that is printed on the metal strip in the cavity of the glazing but beyond that i'm stumped!!!

Obviously the coatings make quite a difference to the energy rating...and if this info could be obtained it could mean the difference between an F and an E2...PLEASE HELP!!!:eek:

its easy to determine gap... its the thickness of the metal strip.. you cant actually measure it, but holding a rule next to it give a very close indication...

on low e coatings etc.... unless manufacturers stamp is still in the window and legible.. i cant see how...

MEONLY

dunie001 wrote: »

Ok I've a good question now:


Q. How on Earth do you find out what the low-E coatings are on the Double glazing/triple glazing in an existing house, and if there is air or argon in the cavity...and also how wide the gap actually is??????

I managed to get the manufacturer of the glass (VistaTherm K) and a BS standard (BS 5713) and a date of manufacture(??) that is printed on the metal strip in the cavity of the glazing but beyond that i'm stumped!!!

Obviously the coatings make quite a difference to the energy rating...and if this info could be obtained it could mean the difference between an F and an E2...PLEASE HELP!!!:eek:

Contact the manufacturer for all info if possible and use that info. Your on your way to this already.

Otherwise you must select "air filled" if unknown. The gap width (I'm told) is sometimes on the metal space. Your visual measurement if all else fails and default values kicks in.

DOCARCH

Good tip for checking air vs. gas filled double glazing.

If you hold a (lit) lighter up to the glass, if you see 2 reflections, it's air filled - if you see 4 reflections, it's gas filled.

dunie001

MEONLY wrote: »

Contact the manufacturer for all info if possible and use that info. Your on your way to this already.

Otherwise you must select "air filled" if unknown. The gap width (I'm told) is sometimes on the metal space. Your visual measurement if all else fails and default values kicks in.

Thanks for the advice...looks like i'll be putting "air filled" on most of my surveys so...I'm not getting paid enough to do that kind of research, although I will always ask the home-owner if they want to go to the bother of looking...

MEONLY

DOCARCH wrote: »

Good tip for checking air vs. gas filled double glazing.

If you hold a (lit) lighter up to the glass, if you see 2 reflections, it's air filled - if you see 4 reflections, it's gas filled.

Thats a brilliant tip. Just checked the choices given in the drop down menu and there are only two--air and one type of gas.

Would your method be acceptable? It could significantly influence the result rating?

DOCARCH

MEONLY wrote: »

Would your method be acceptable? It could significantly influence the result rating?

Don't know whether SEI would accept that bit of 'science' - but I suppose it gives an indiaction and/or you could ask for confirmation?

sydthebeat

DOCARCH wrote: »

Good tip for checking air vs. gas filled double glazing.

If you hold a (lit) lighter up to the glass, if you see 2 reflections, it's air filled - if you see 4 reflections, it's gas filled.

shock horror.....

smoker assessors better than non-smoker assessors!!!!

muffler

DOCARCH wrote: »

Good tip for checking air vs. gas filled double glazing.

If you hold a (lit) lighter up to the glass, if you see 2 reflections, it's air filled - if you see 4 reflections, it's gas filled.

How may reflections would you see if you were inebriated?

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

shock horror.....

smoker assessors better than non-smoker assessors!!!!

Also saves on smoke generators for air-tightness!!!

Matt Simis

dunie001 wrote: »

Ok I've a good question now:


Q. How on Earth do you find out what the low-E coatings are on the Double glazing/triple glazing in an existing house,


Obviously the coatings make quite a difference to the energy rating...and if this info could be obtained it could mean the difference between an F and an E2...PLEASE HELP!!!:eek:

To confirm, you are aware that all Windows before 2004 are assumed not to be low-emissivity yeah (DEAP Manual p89)? In the UK all new glass must be low-e to meet UValue requirements, seemingly not here though. :rolleyes: Regardless, the UK market demand would dictate that low-e should be/will be the "standard".

Regarding detection, low-e glass is coated (or infused with molten glass in the case of hard coat low-e) with metallic particles, to be placed on the pane on the inside of the building (debatably for aesthetics, not performance reasons). This tiny metallic coating can frequently (reluctant to say always) be detected with a sensitive (but otherwise regular) metal detector. Obviously wont tell you specific ratings, but will at least let you choose something other than "Double Glazed - Air Filled" as the fall back.

There are dedicated low-e detectors too, but they are more like EUR400+.

MEONLY

muffler wrote: »

How may reflections would you see if you were inebriated?

I have just been hired by SEI to carry out indepth scientific research into this matter.

My finding to date:

Sober

---

Double glazed air filled
10 pints---Double glazed gas filled
15 pints---Treble glazed gas filled (I think)
20 pints---I'm working on it :pac::D:pac: now where's the window gone!!!Some idiot just added a second window.:mad:

No6

dunie001 wrote: »

Ok I've a good question now:


Q. How on Earth do you find out what the low-E coatings are on the Double glazing/triple glazing in an existing house, and if there is air or argon in the cavity...and also how wide the gap actually is??????

I managed to get the manufacturer of the glass (VistaTherm K) and a BS standard (BS 5713) and a date of manufacture(??) that is printed on the metal strip in the cavity of the glazing but beyond that i'm stumped!!!

Obviously the coatings make quite a difference to the energy rating...and if this info could be obtained it could mean the difference between an F and an E2...PLEASE HELP!!!:eek:

I have come accross a gadget on an English Surveying Equipment shop site which can tell you if there are Low E coatings and measure the gap too, its only about £400 or £500 :eek:

sinnerboy

Sure , 4 or 5 assessments will pay far that :rolleyes:

Jimbo

Can anyone tell me roughly how long it takes for first registration as a BER assessor takes to go through. I sent the application about a week ago but nothing yet.

topcatcbr

jimbo78 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me roughly how long it takes for first registration as a BER assessor takes to go through. I sent the application about a week ago but nothing yet.

Not long I think mine was done in a matter of a week or two. They are quite good at taking money.

That was a while back when they had nothing else to do though. Id guess they are a bit busier now though.

legs akimbo.

Mine took a good month, but that was from early Dec to early Jan with the Christmas Holidays. Was told there is a backlog and would be two to three weeks.

brianmacl

jimbo78 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me roughly how long it takes for first registration as a BER assessor takes to go through. I sent the application about a week ago but nothing yet.

I just recieved my registration, I sent it in 2 weeks earlier. I was told that on average it is taking about 9 working days at the moment, but they won't confirm this.

No6

I got my renewal cert today, the direct debit for it came out of my a/c last week, not too bad!!!. Should this thread also now be moved to the new BER forum?