DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

MEONLY

sinnerboy wrote: »

( genuinely) not being smart - the SEI assessor helpline people are good at this sort of query

I suspect that SEI would issue the cert , they are not mandated to enforce building regs .

Perhaps you would enquire at SEI Assessors [registered@ber.sei.ie] and share the response with us ?

My first post. New to this. Read 720 posts! Great stuf.
Also interested in SEI response. Follow through with SEI query.
Regards Lads

Smcgie

No6 wrote: »

Smcgie

I would advise him to at least get the design compliant first, as he hasn't built the house yet you can improve the glazing rating and the u values and get it to comply, upload it as an xml to NAS and let it generate the notices just don't publish until you have confirmed they can be fixed or not!!

Cheers

Thank you No6 this is the sort of answer i was after, not nit picking in my work or capability to carry out a BER assessment.. Thanks again.

brianmacl

I have sent a mail to SEI but they are a little slow to answer at the moment:

1 does anyone have a definition of a circulation space?

2 if an electric insert is put across a fire place blocking it how should this be handled in the ventilation section? does it depend on how well sealed it is? whether it is being left with the property? or whether it is screwed in place?

No6

I think there's a lot of questions being asked at the moment Brian

No1 cicrculation spaces are hallways, corridors and stairs, anywhere used to moved around the house out side of the main rooms.

No 2 is a good question, you would want to see if the flue is closed ( I bet its not!!) If not I'd count is as a chimney.

Does that help?

brianmacl

No6 wrote: »

I think there's a lot of questions being asked at the moment Brian

No1 cicrculation spaces are hallways, corridors and stairs, anywhere used to moved around the house out side of the main rooms

No 2 is a good question, you would want to see if the flue is closed ( I bet its not!!) If not I'd count is as a chimney.

Does that help?

it kind of does but I think that there is alot open to the assessors interpritation.

in some houses the line between a main / living room and a hall is not very clear, so I would like an actual definition? In two different properties that I know off, this could make a difference due to the size of the hall and also in one case it would mean the house may have a draught lobby. with out a deffinition two different assessors could both be correct and get totally different grades.

The def of a closed vent doesn't mention where it is closed it just gives some examples of permanent obstruction v temp one.

No6

brianmacl wrote: »

it kind of does but I think that there is alot open to the assessors interpritation.

in some houses the line between a main / living room and a hall is not very clear, so I would like an actual definition? In two different properties that I know off, this could make a difference due to the size of the hall and also in one case it would mean the house may have a draught lobby. with out a deffinition two different assessors could both be correct and get totally different grades.

The def of a closed vent doesn't mention where it is closed it just gives some examples of permanent obstruction v temp one.

If you are refering to an open plan arrangement where you circulate through a room then it is counted in the room area. For the purposes of working out living area it has to be seperated by a door to be excluded. So if you have a completely open plan house (I know its a bit extereme) on the ground floor then the entire ground floor area is counted.

But if you cannot confirm its closed you should always default to the worst case, open!!:D

brianmacl

No6 wrote: »

If you are refering to an open plan arrangement where you circulate through a room then it is counted in the room area. For the purposes of working out living area it has to be seperated by a door to be excluded. So if you have a completely open plan house (I know its a bit extereme) on the ground floor then the entire ground floor area is counted.

But if you cannot confirm its closed you should always default to the worst case, open!!:D

I am actually thinking more so off workers cottages that are about 100 years old in this case a circulation space linking bedrooms, living room and extended kitchen diner. the circulation space can be larger than the living room, and if it is not counted as circulation then the porch area can't be counted as a draft lobby.

No6

brianmacl wrote: »

I am actually thinking more so off workers cottages that are about 100 years old in this case a circulation space linking bedrooms, living room and extended kitchen diner. the circulation space can be larger than the living room, and if it is not counted as circulation then the porch area can't be counted as a draft lobby.

I'm not 100% what you mean, any chance of a sketch?? It sounds like there is no seperate circulation area and the circulation space is actually a living room of some decsription but if there is a lobby then it is stilll a lobby to my mind and could be counted as a draft lobby.

sydthebeat

quick question please...

i have a situation where theres a timeclock, a cylinder thermostat and TRVs on 81% of the rads.... no room thermostats

what control catagory do i input fromtable 4e?

thanks in advance.

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

quick question please...

i have a situation where theres a timeclock, a cylinder thermostat and TRVs on 81% of the rads.... no room thermostats

what control catagory do i input fromtable 4e?

thanks in advance.

If timeclock is literally that - on/off depending on time and does not allow separate control of DHW .... then top of list of options in 4e

DEAP does not give much credit for TRV's alone

Cylinder stat input at water heating , Table 2 refers

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

If timeclock is literally that - on/off depending on time and does not allow separate control of DHW .... then top of list of options in 4e

DEAP does not give much credit for TRV's alone

Cylinder stat input at water heating , Table 2 refers

yeah, i entered 1 for control category and 0.6 for temp adjustment..

its a pity TRVs dont get a good rap in DEAP.... i suppose its the manual aspect of them.. .i know personally im always at the ones in my home!...

thanks SB

MEONLY

brianmacl wrote: »

I have sent a mail to SEI but they are a little slow to answer at the moment:

1 does anyone have a definition of a circulation space?

2 if an electric insert is put across a fire place blocking it how should this be handled in the ventilation section? does it depend on how well sealed it is? whether it is being left with the property? or whether it is screwed in place?

2. If the electric insert is portable i.e. has a plug top on it, then ignore it for DEAP purposes. I suspect this is the case.
Think of the chimney issue in terms of Air Test and or SEI audit. If you count it as a chimney then you can seal it before air test. If you count it as not being a chimney, imagine what it will do to an air test. If its an unused chimney you could get many brownie points in your Advisory Report for recommending to block it up properly. You seem to infer that it is the electric insert that is blocking the chimney. Your word blocking seems a little vague.
Hope this helps:D

ruskin

quick question: in the deap program, when asked for the area of the walls, do you calculate the area of the entire walls (ignoring the windows and door opes) or do you first subtract the area of the openings and enter the remainder as your wall area. im confused as im not sure if the program automatically subtracts an area of opes from the wall area.

MicktheMan

ruskin wrote: »

quick question: in the deap program, when asked for the area of the walls, do you calculate the area of the entire walls (ignoring the windows and door opes) or do you first subtract the area of the openings and enter the remainder as your wall area. im confused as im not sure if the program automatically subtracts an area of opes from the wall area.

It's the nett area i.e. subtract the area of opes. This is such a basic question that I have to ask where did you do your course and how did you pass?

Independent

Is it accurate to use the space heating and hot water demand in DEAP to size a boiler for a property.

sinnerboy

No . DEAP gives you an annualised energy demand . It's like annual total mileage - does not inform what size engine required

The following is cut pasted and slightly edited from a post I made months back on another thread , when I asked the very same question of several major gas boiler providers

...................................................................................

I sent this text below to a lot of the "big names" . Few responded .
Of the 2 that did - one said "we don't size boilers - ask your installer"

Now i consulted one or two trusted plumbers and they said they always followed the advice of the boiler manufacturer ..... ( merry go round ) .

The second manufacturer that answered advised .... a rule of thumb .
For a B3/2 rated house - 100 watts/m2 - to provide a heat-up-from-cold time of 30mins . For B1 + rated house 80 watts/m2 . Then + 20% for DHW . ( I was grateful for this - at least they gave an answer )

Other guidance can be found here - based on simplified data inputs

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/.../boilersizing/

http://www.idhee.org.uk/calculator.html

But I failed to obtain an answer anywhere to the question I have made bold below .

So ...... if such a lack of clarity exists - how do we ( i.e. non heating engineers ) size boilers ?

"Dear Sirs

Up until recently I have relied on (volume ft3 x 5 + 20% for DHW ) = BTU to arrive at a domestic boiler size

I think we need to get condensing boilers sized better than that for them to condense

Is there a ( non heating engineer friendly ) method to calculate ?

Or ...

If DEAP tells me ( proposed B2 rated house , 300m2 , well insulated , i.e. to TGD L 2007 ) -

"energy required for main space heating"
13200 kwh/yr
and
"energy required for main water heater"
5945 kwh/yr

From that , can I select a ( gas ) boiler size ? How do I get from ( combined energy demand ) of 19145 kwh/yr to "X" Kw boiler ? "

Any ( relevantly qualified ) poster able to assist ?

Independent

I agree Sinnerboy, that old way of calculating a boiler size may have worked for a conventional boiler but as you say it can not be accurate for a condensing boiler. I did use one of the online calcs and got the same result as heat and hot water demands from Deap. There has to me a more accurate way through Deap of doing it.

MEONLY

I am having difficulty inputting "insulation thickness" on an existing dwelling, with rafter insulation. It simply will not open up to me. Word "unknown" remains dimmly in the background.I tried different age bands to no avail.
Can anybody help

Independentber

Hi Everyone,
This is my first post so don’t kill me if this has been asked before.
I have a house which has two boilers, Boiler 1 that does underfloor heating in an extension and Boiler 2 does hot water , underfloor / heating main house, Radiators etc..
Would i put Boiler 1 in the Deap Software, Energy Requirements, Space Heating and boiler 2 in Water heating?
Both boilers are oil but different makes/Models.
What way would you approach this?

sydthebeat

Edit: SB has it below

sinnerboy

Paragraph A1 Appendix A DEAP manual

smooth operater

Independent wrote: »

Is it accurate to use the space heating and hot water demand in DEAP to size a boiler for a property.

Dishin out tricks of the trade here....

From memory, on a new build deap calculation (ive yet to do or see an exiting build, anyone care to share one, if its on excel?????)

When you input all the fabric heat losses and ventilation losses it'll give you a watts/degree C heat loss (this is on the fabric heat loss page of the excel sheet)
multiply that figure by the roughly 22-24 (as this is the expected max delta T) and that'll be your heat loss for that building.
Add on whatever kW is needed for your domestic hot water


Conor

Independentber

sinnerboy ''Paragraph A1 Appendix A DEAP manual''


Thanks Sinnerboy

sydthebeat

just had a look at trying to ensure compliance with 2008 part l in DEAP 3... for a 300 sq m house.....

Its very very hard to meet the renewable requirement with solar collectors alone.

I have inputed a fair good spec, roughly 20% greater building element u values, windows + doors 1.4.... MHRV, airtightness 0.25,

still i would have to use 14 sq m falt plate with 1000 litre cylinder with 200 litre dedicated storage to conform

however if i use a wood log stove as secondary heating i can reduce this to 8 sq m with a 300 litre tank and 100 dedicated storage....

using wood pellets can reduce this even further.

I cannot see how a renewable secondary heating system will meet these regs....

any views??

sinnerboy

That's what I found too in similar situation syd

ber_essentials

Hello. I just stumbled across this board and was hoping you could help with a query. I'm doing a student project related to ther BER scheme.
I have got a copy of the software and DEAP manual and have been trying to get a basic understanding of it.
Couple of questions;
1. Is it the external dimensions of the house or internal that are input into DEAP?
2. With regard to walls, theres a box to tick labeled 'semi exposed'. Is this for walls adjoining another house as would occur in a semi or terraced house scenario?

Sorry if my questions are basic but I do not need to have an indepth knowledge of energy rating assessment - just wanted to have a basic understanding for the purpose of this project work.

topcatcbr

ber_essentials wrote: »

Couple of questions;
1. Is it the external dimensions of the house or internal that are input into DEAP?
.

Internal Dims

2. With regard to walls, theres a box to tick labeled 'semi exposed'.

This is where a dwelling adjoins a garage or other unheated space.

Conservatories are treated differently

[/QUOTE]

Is this for walls adjoining another house as would occur in a semi or terraced house scenario?

No these are treated as no heat loss walls and are not imputted in Building elements.

Sorry if my questions are basic but I do not need to have an indepth knowledge of energy rating assessment - just wanted to have a basic understanding for the purpose of this project work.

No Prob

buzymc

Hi everyone,

Im hoping some of you may be able to help me with a query regarding a BER assessment on an existing dwelling.

The front door of the dwelling is partially glazed (20%) uPVC.
If it was a timber door I would work out the u-value based on the the 3W/m²K for the 80% surface area and the glazing u-value for the 20% surface area (DEAP Manual table 6a).
Am i correct in saying that table 6a it doesnt give a value for a uPVC frame? Or do I just use 4.8 for a single glazed door?

Thanks a mill.

sydthebeat

just as a further point to my last post in this thread...

this particular dwelling im doing a prelim on...

300 sq m...

Ive upgraded construction to an A3 rating (67)
I have incorporated 8 sq m of flat plate solar collectors and a wood pellet as secondary heating....

and it STILL does not meet the renewable requirements to satisfy 2008 part L.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

This to me screams that anyone starting to build, and assuming not substantially complete by june 30.... then they will be in a very precarious position if they havent a good construction specification and a prelim BER before they turn a sod.....

i wonder not that building control isnt as busy *cough* as they used to be, will they be forceful in inspecting to ensure complaince..... i doubt it!...

sinnerboy

Do I hear heat pump ? Seriously the blanket 10kWhr/m2/year requirement should be scaled back to require less for the better built property . Will make the point during consultation period for next TGD L upgrade , expected next year

.