BBC on mass immigration to Ireland - we have messed it up basically

SubjectSean

HollyB wrote: »

After the Citizenship Referendum, there is hopefully far less incentive for people to do this. The child won't be an Irish citizen. They'll be a <Whatever country/countries their parents are from> citizen who happened to be born in Ireland.

And of course some big fat rich Irish American born in Chicago with a great granny from Skibbereen they will still be classed as Irish and entitled to a passport. Seems really fair:rolleyes:

SubjectSean

purplengold wrote: »

If, as you say people die every day trying to get into our fortress, that’s their decision. We didn’t ask them to risk their lives.

Jesus Christ man! Have a heart. Your ancestors too risked life and limb to get to where the good life was.

HollyB

SubjectSean wrote: »

And of course some big fat rich Irish American born in Chicago with a great granny from Skibbereen they will still be classed as Irish and entitled to a passport. Seems really fair:rolleyes:

It goes back to great-grandparents? I thought that proving a claim to citizenship could be difficult if it depends on an ancestor that far removed.

HollyB

smccarrick wrote: »

Public sector employees since 1995 are compulsarily required to contribute to their pensions- when you factor in the different schemes that contributions are made to- it comes to about 9% of gross income. Those prior to 1995, do not make PRSI contibutions, and had the option of opting out of some of the contibutory schemes, but still had to pay towards their superannuation entitlements. Its a common misconception perpetuated by the media that they're all getting a free ride- its not actually the case though. Its such massive news these days because the government are required to make actuarial declarations (known as FRS17 declarations) detailing the costs of pension rights and entitlements. In some semi-state bodies with fewer than 2,000 employees- this can be a deficit valued at up to a billion Euro (as per annual published accounts).

As well as that, the pension they're getting takes the Social Welfare pension they are entitled to as PRSI contributors into account - if somebody's pension is €500 a week, they're not getting €500 a week plus their Social Welfare pension. They get their Social Welfare pension, then a top-up to bring them up to €500.

AARRRGH

darkman2 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/worldtonight/ram/worldtonight_immigration_20071204.ram

I just listened to that and at no point did I get the impression the BBC was saying we've messed things up.

There are problems due to there suddenly being lots of people here, but these can easily be fixed with a bit of effort (just like the charity was able to get a school up and running within a few days.)

SubjectSean

HollyB wrote: »

It goes back to great-grandparents? I thought that proving a claim to citizenship could be difficult if it depends on an ancestor that far removed.

Basically if your great-grandparent was Irish born and your mother or father used that relationship to register as Irish then you are also eligible to be Irish.

Otacon

Giblet wrote: »

Next person to post rolleyes as the only response gets banned. If you can't make a point, don't post.

Oh thank CHRIST! I was about to pull my eyes from their sockets in frustration!

I am Irish, currently working in England. In my team at work, out of 12 people, there are three native English people. From day one, I have been welcomed wholeheartedly and though I have only been here a short time, I can see myself staying here.

Immigration, for the most part, helps economies but like everything, there are those out there who will exploit it. Immigration laws should be used to punish them, not all immigrants.

What worries me is when I come home, I see communities being sectioned off, so there is a 'Polish area'. This is what is going to lead to trouble.

Rb

dublindude wrote: »

There are problems due to there suddenly being lots of people here, but these can easily be fixed with a bit of effort (just like the charity was able to get a school up and running within a few days.)

Easily fixed?

Lol. How naive.

johnathan woss

SubjectSean will you get real the people trying to get into Ireland are not subsistence farmers from Sub-Saharan Africa !

If you were arguing for the right of people from Commonwealth countries to emigrate to Britain you would at least have the semblance of a logical argument (although you would still be incorrect) but as it is you are talking wishy-washy nonsense.

johnathan woss

SubjectSean wrote: »

Even if this is a risk it pales to insignificance when seen beside the risks of remaining. Oh we who are spoiled rotten, without any conception of how hard life can be. Every day people die trying to get into our fortress where all the wealth in the world is.

I mean honestly what is your argument here ?

Ireland is a rich nation so we should give carte blanche to people from the third world to emigrate here ?

HollyB

SubjectSean wrote: »

Basically if your great-grandparent was Irish born and your mother or father used that relationship to register as Irish then you are also eligible to be Irish.

And if your mother or father chose not to register as Irish citizens, are you still eligible to claim citizenship through your great-grandparent?

If not, then I would have said that the "big fat rich Irish American born in Chicago" is claiming citizenship through a parent who is an Irish citizen.

HollyB

johnathan woss wrote: »

I mean honestly what is your argument here ?

Ireland is a rich nation so we should give carte blanche to people from the third world to emigrate here ?

If we are foolish enough to do that, we will quickly become a poor country again. Our resources are not unlimited.

RobbieTheRobber

HollyB wrote: »

If we are foolish enough to do that, we will quickly become a poor country again. Our resources are not unlimited.

Well isn't Ireland's greatest natural resource now skilled personal and are we not lacking in that, hence the need for immigration of skilled migrant workers to continue or even stabilise the rapid growth of our economy?

AARRRGH

rb_ie wrote: »

Easily fixed?

Lol. How naive.

Yes, easily fixed. More investment in schools. Stricter immigration control. Etc. These are hardly rocket science.

HollyB

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Well isn't Ireland's greatest natural resource now skilled personal and are we not lacking in that, hence the need for immigration of skilled migrant workers to continue or even stabilise the rapid growth of our economy?

There is a huge difference between granting work permits to skilled, essential migrant workers and allowing every person who happens to want to come to Ireland to come in, no questions asked.

Some degree of immigration is unavoidable, but strict controls are necessary.

SubjectSean

johnathan woss wrote: »

SubjectSean will you get real the people trying to get into Ireland are not subsistence farmers from Sub-Saharan Africa !

Most sub-Saharan Africans are subsistence farmers. The dead Africans who wash up on the shores of Europe are therefore actually what according to you?

johnathan woss wrote: »

If you were arguing for the right of people from Commonwealth countries to emigrate to Britain you would at least have the semblance of a logical argument (although you would still be incorrect)
but as it is you are talking wishy-washy nonsense.

Again the economic system that underpins your well being, and that of your family, is entirely dependant on people in the 3rd world having to suffer. You fail to understand this properly I think.

johnathan woss wrote: »

I mean honestly what is your argument here ?

Ireland is a rich nation so we should give carte blanche to people from the third world to emigrate here ?

Our brothers and sisters have nothing and are dying in the dirt. We are living with an excess of wealth, a quarter of the food we buy just gets thrown in the bin. Human decency is my argument here but it seems to be sadly lacking in many of my compatriots.

SubjectSean

HollyB wrote: »

If not, then I would have said that the "big fat rich Irish American born in Chicago" is claiming citizenship through a parent who is an Irish citizen.

Ya a parent who wasn't even from here and who may never even have so much as visited. I fail to see how you think being Irish this way is just fine but so far as you're concerned a child who is born here, schooled and brought up here is not Irish unless its parents are.

HollyB

SubjectSean wrote: »

Ya a parent who wasn't even from here and who may never even have so much as visited. I fail to see how you think being Irish this way is just fine but so far as you're concerned a child who is born here, schooled and brought up here is not Irish unless its parents are.

The 2004 Citizenship Referendum removed the automatic right to citizenship for children born in Ireland. As I understand it, it is not necessary for both parents - or even one parent - to be Irish, as long as one parent has been lawfully resident for the required length of time prior to the child's birth. Therefore, under the law, a child born here and raised here may not be Irish if they do not satisfy the qualifications for citizenship.

At present, the Nationality and Citizenship Act allows any person with an Irish grandparent to become an Irish citizen. If you feel that this is unjust, you can always lobby the Minister for Justice for another change in citizenship law to restrict the rights that they enjoy at present, although I wonder how much support it would get.

williambonney

A question, (a silly question but none the less a question). If we were to hold a referendum “Any African who wants to, can come and live in Ireland for as long as they want and be entitled to social welfare payments” what do you think the out come would be? I would guess 99% NO. We Irish are not idiots, only the people in government.

SubjectSean

HollyB wrote: »

At present, the Nationality and Citizenship Act allows any person with an Irish grandparent to become an Irish citizen. If you feel that this is unjust, you can always lobby the Minister for Justice for another change in citizenship law to restrict the rights that they enjoy at present, although I wonder how much support it would get.

If I could bear to talk to a politician I'd rather lobby for our consitution to be put back how it was when our forefathers first drafted it. Kids with Irish accents who aren't Irish? It's a bloody stupid notion and patently unfair given the courtesy extended to our American cousins.

SimpleSam06

SubjectSean wrote: »

I don't know why that might be, that certainly isn't my experience and I was there on my own also. Eitherway, all men are brothers whether they recognise the fact or not.

Hey hey, guess what. All the charity and compassion in the world isn't going to help them. Throwing open the borders to them isn't going to help them. UN resolutions, live aid, celebrity sponsorship, none of this is going to help them. Nothing short of a violent, thorough invasion and enforcing free and democratic elections, with draconian punishments for corruption, will help them.

Or, they could sort it out themselves.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Frankly this is nonsense. The economic system that underpins your well being, and that of your family, is entirely dependant on people in the 3rd world having to suffer. On behalf of us our Government here and in Europe, conspires with the other developed countries to keep the status quo. What this boils down to is more dead babies in Africa and elsewhere. You can wash your hands all you like but the grieving mothers know of your guilt.

Dead babies, grieving mothers, the economic system depending on sub saharan africa, what the living christ are you burbling on about. You've edged from rabidly bleeding heart into just plain rabid at this stage.

SubjectSean wrote: »

So you think flying in luxury on a plane is more risky than trying to scratch a living in sub-saharan Africa for instance? Get real and have a heart.

You need to think very carefully about what you just said. Tell me, what sort of subsistence farmers can afford a ticket on a luxury plane? Wait, so you mean that the people coming in aren't subsistence farmers, but relatively well off middle class types? :eek: This little fact comes as no surprise to many people, althoug it will probably be a big surprise to you.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Even if this is a risk it pales to insignificance when seen beside the risks of remaining. Oh we who are spoiled rotten, without any conception of how hard life can be. Every day people die trying to get into our fortress where all the wealth in the world is.

Lets change your statement to oh we of the really, really short memory. Back in the 80s Ireland was as badly off as many African nations are today, and plenty of people remember those days and worse just fine.

Knock off the Oprah soap box, you aren't preaching to a shower of Americans with white guilt syndrome.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Jesus Christ man! Have a heart. Your ancestors too risked life and limb to get to where the good life was.

So what? They didn't risk life and limb to get into Africa. They were also going to a place which could accommodate them very comfortably - which is not the case for Ireland, a very small country recovering from decades of grinding depression.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Most sub-Saharan Africans are subsistence farmers. The dead Africans who wash up on the shores of Europe are therefore actually what according to you?

Bad gamblers.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Again the economic system that underpins your well being, and that of your family, is entirely dependant on people in the 3rd world having to suffer. You fail to understand this properly I think.

Once again, would you care to elaborate on this remarkable statement.

SubjectSean wrote: »

It's a bloody stupid notion and patently unfair given the courtesy extended to our American cousins.

For a man who is constantly pointing out the actions of our ancestors, you seem to have a real problem with us reciprocating the favour to the one country which did receive us more or less gladly.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Our brothers and sisters have nothing and are dying in the dirt. We are living with an excess of wealth, a quarter of the food we buy just gets thrown in the bin. Human decency is my argument here but it seems to be sadly lacking in many of my compatriots.

Human decency has nothing to do with it. We have only very very recently attained any sort of wealth, and the first thing that happens is those with none seem to feel that they are owed something. They are not.

Your type would sacrifice this country and its future on the altar of politically correct received sentiments. Go away.

Wertz

SubjectSean wrote: »

If I could bear to talk to a politician I'd rather lobby for our consitution to be put back how it was when our forefathers first drafted it. Kids with Irish accents who aren't Irish? It's a bloody stupid notion and patently unfair given the courtesy extended to our American cousins.

How is it patently unfair? The old system, which was drawn up in different times with a different ideal, was in our modern age wide open to abuse, and abused it was, if only by the citizens of ceetain foreign countries. People arriving here 7 and 8 months pregnant as a means to try and get the whole family in the door after the child was birthed here, was a regular occurence. That loophole has been closed....sure, it's tough for those that didn't abuse the system but again, we can't just discrimintae against the nationals of certain countries with legislation like this; it has to be all encompassing.
Your scenario about the fat American is grand but the difference is that their parent(s) or grandparent(s) have got Irish citizenship and so their offspring are entitled to it as well should they so wish. That is not an exclusive right of Americans AFAIK. It applies to the children of Irish expats born in any country, even African one I'd imagine... edit;(I'm open to correction on this)
That part of the whole system is to try and draw some of our indigenous populace that left in hardier times back to the fold and has merit IMO.

HollyB

SubjectSean wrote: »

If I could bear to talk to a politician I'd rather lobby for our consitution to be put back how it was when our forefathers first drafted it. Kids with Irish accents who aren't Irish? It's a bloody stupid notion and patently unfair given the courtesy extended to our American cousins.

Even after almost 80% of those who voted opted to change it?

SubjectSean

HollyB wrote: »

Even after almost 80% of those who voted opted to change it?

Votes to change the constitution should be compulsory, there was something like a 40% turnout if that. The constitution was in this instance actually changed by a small minority of bigots.

Wertz

So how on earth do you force people to vote then?
Gunpoint?
Handing out sweets?

Do tell.

SubjectSean

Wertz wrote: »

How is it patently unfair? The old system, which was drawn up in different times with a different ideal, was in our modern age wide open to abuse, and abused it was, if only by the citizens of ceetain foreign countries. People arriving here 7 and 8 months pregnant as a means to try and get the whole family in the door after the child was birthed here, was a regular occurence. That loophole has been closed....sure, it's tough for those that didn't abuse the system but again, we can't just discrimintae against the nationals of certain countries with legislation like this; it has to be all encompassing.

What you are calling "abuse of the system" is merely people trying to escape crushing poverty and an early death. You would do the exact same if you were in their shoes. We actually have a history of it.

Wertz wrote: »

Your scenario about the fat American is grand but the difference is that their parent(s) or grandparent(s) have got Irish citizenship and so their offspring are entitled to it as well should they so wish. That is not an exclusive right of Americans AFAIK. It applies to the children of Irish expats born in any country, even African one I'd imagine... edit;(I'm open to correction on this)

Funny enough when the Irish emigrated they generally went where the money was so much so that those who benefit from this entitlement are generally well off and in the least need of it.

Wertz wrote: »

That part of the whole system is to try and draw some of our indigenous populace that left in hardier times back to the fold and has merit IMO.

So we have space and enough food to share with them?

SubjectSean

Wertz wrote: »

So how on earth do you force people to vote then?

Same way as Australia.

SimpleSam06

SubjectSean wrote: »

What you are calling "abuse of the system" is merely people trying to escape crushing poverty and an early death. You would do the exact same if you were in their shoes. We actually have a history of it.

Yes all those subsistence farmers who managed to afford a plane ticket on a "luxury" plane, and fly right over the rest of Europe to dock up at Ireland.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Funny enough when the Irish emigrated they generally went where the money was so much so that those who benefit from this entitlement are generally well off and in the least need of it.

So we have space and enough food to share with them?

Once again, for a man who is constantly pointing out the actions of our ancestors, you seem to have a real problem with us reciprocating the favour to the one country which did receive us more or less gladly.

What's your problem with Americans, are you a racist against them?

HollyB

SubjectSean wrote: »

Votes to change the constitution should be compulsory, there was something like a 40% turnout if that. The constitution was in this instance actually changed by a small minority of bigots.

Turnout = 59.95%
Yes = 79.17%
No = 20.83%

Yes votes as % of electorate = 47.46%
No votes as % of electorate = 12.49%

Looks to me as though the 'No' voters were the small minority.

johnathan woss

SubjectSean was qualifies you to speak as such a high moral authority on the world economic system and the motivation of others ?

(it didn't take you very long to play the bigot card btw)