BBC on mass immigration to Ireland - we have messed it up basically

Wertz

HollyB wrote: »

Probably because Ireland isn't doing too well on actually carrying out deportations of illegal immigrants.

Look at the situation with a deportation scheduled this month. 348 people were due to be deported to Nigeria. Nine people were actually deported.

http://www.tribune.ie/article.tvt?_scope=TribuneFTF&id=108221&SUBCAT=&SUBCATNAME=&DT=09/12/2007%2000%3A00%3A00&keywords=asylum&FC

A good start would be to actually deport those who are scheduled for deportation.

Yet more evidence that we simply can't cope and haven't got the infrastructure, staff or policies in place to deal with things as they stand. It's only going to get worse, like I said way back up the thread. Hell we can't lock up half our own criminals, let alone get around to finding out where undocumented illegal asylum seekers have moved to within the country (maybe we could ring them on their mobiles :rolleyes: ), and getting them on a plane....then you throw the likes of RAR into the mix, add a little media frenzy and we're back to square one....

HollyB

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If the migrant workers are from EU countries then I cannot see what the Government could do? Other countries outside the EU permits can be limited or refused. As long as Ireland is seen as prosperous then we will be a magnet. If the current sales madness is anything to go by then we are still in the money.

We can't stop EU citizens coming and going as they please, but the numbers of non-EU citizens allowed entry should be controlled.

HollyB

Wertz wrote: »

Yet more evidence that we simply can't cope and haven't got the infrastructure, staff or policies in place to deal with things as they stand. It's only going to get worse, like I said way back up the thread. Hell we can't lock up half our own criminals, let alone get around to finding out where undocumented illegal asylum seekers have moved to within the country (maybe we could ring them on their mobiles :rolleyes: ), and getting them on a plane....then you throw the likes of RAR into the mix, add a little media frenzy and we're back to square one....

The appeals process is another one; cases that would have been over and done with quickly can be dragged through the courts for years, with the inevitable result that once the appeals are exhausted, the illegal immigrant will claim that they have put down roots in the country and should be allowed to stay.

Don't provide legal aid for appeals, and don't count any time spent in the application or appeals process towards length of residence.

Mr.Micro

HollyB wrote: »

We can't stop EU citizens coming and going as they please, but the numbers of non-EU citizens allowed entry should be controlled.

Yes I agree such a move would be prudent in an economic downturn and an inadequate state infrastructure. How many of the non EU migrants are seeking asylum though? Care has to be taken there to be sure that these people are not deported back to torture or death. It is a difficult situation and most other European countries are having similar problems. It is all new to us.

Wertz

HollyB wrote: »

Don't provide legal aid for appeals...

Solicitors and barristers the land over would have that appealed quicker than you can say "Pension Plan" citing discrimination and such.
A mini industry springs up around so much of legal stuff....just look at the tribunals...

OPENROAD

[QUOTE=SimpleSam06;54736854



Lets be absoloutely clear on this - in our own country, we make the laws, regardless of membership in the EU or any other groups. The legalities are exactly what we make them. The international backlash would doubtless be severe, however.


Do we really? The EU has no influence with regards our laws, so we are not bound by EU Law, really? think you might be wrong, how did you come to that conclusion.

HollyB

Wertz wrote: »

Solicitors and barristers the land over would have that appealed quicker than you can say "Pension Plan" citing discrimination and such.
A mini industry springs up around so much of legal stuff....just look at the tribunals...

Precisely. Solicitors take these cases and drag them through the courts for years. If they lose, they keep trying and it costs the State - and the tax payer - a fortune.

If you had a situation where someone appealing had to pay their own legal costs or find a solicitor who would work pro-bono, solicitors would be far more selective about the cases they took because if they lost, they could wind up liable for paying the State's defence costs themselves.

Either refuse all legal aid for appeals against immigration issues, or make it a strictly once-off thing. If you lose your first appeal, you pay for your second and subsequent appeals yourself.

OPENROAD

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If the current sales madness is anything to go by then we are still in the money.

I wonder how much is down to credit cards that people won't be able to pay.

SubjectSean

Really I think anybody posting on this topic should actually go and live in the dirt and disease of the 3rd world for a while and try hard to remember that all men are brothers.

HollyB

OPENROAD wrote: »

I wonder how much is down to credit cards that people won't be able to pay.

Too much. I make a point of not having a credit card.

thefinalstage

SubjectSean wrote: »

Really I think anybody posting on this topic should actually go and live in the dirt and disease of the 3rd world for a while and try hard to remember that all men are brothers.

Have you lived there? Tell us of your experience.

HollyB wrote: »

Too much. I make a point of not having a credit card.

Just stirring the ****....

purple'n'gold

We don’t want to stop EU citizens coming and going as they please, that is their right, and we are delighted to have them. But we do want and need to stop non EU citizens coming here unless they have valid travel documents. If non EU citizens arrive here without valid travel documents they should be held at the point of arrival and deported to where they have just come from ASAP. The United Kingdom has incoming direct flights from every part of the world, (unlike ROI). All it takes is for an illegal immigrant (from god knows where) to travel over the border from Northern Ireland and Hey! It’s our problem. We need to get a serious dose of cop on and secure our border, and examine the documents of every arrival in our country and detain anyone not in compliance.

HollyB

purplengold wrote: »

If non EU citizens arrive here without valid travel documents they should be held at the point of arrival and deported to where they have just come from ASAP.

Don't let them leave the airport. If they're claiming asylum, they should have to produce their travel documents, including flight ticket stub. If they're coming through an EU country, they're not eligible to claim asylum here and should be sent back to the other EU country.

purplengold wrote: »

All it takes is for an illegal immigrant (from god knows where) to travel over the border from Northern Ireland and Hey! It’s our problem. We need to get a serious dose of cop on and secure our border, and examine the documents of every arrival in our country and detain anyone not in compliance.

Agreed. More vigilance is needed.

johnathan woss

johnathan woss wrote: »

To those talking about irony, etc etc

The Irish that emigrated went mostly to either
a) large, relatively young countries that were largely composed of immigrants, and that had large amounts of untapped land and resources and a need for labour (think the US, Canada, Australia)

b) Britain, which for most of the period was the same country anyway, which has an unique historical link with Ireland, which has always required Irish labour and birth rates, which was crying out for Irish soldiers(at times the British army has been 50% Irish), which was crying out for Irish labour to help rebuild cities after WW2, etc etc etc


Ireland is a small country that by the most extremely conservative estimates has taken in over 10% of it's population in immigrants in a very short period of time.
Most of these immigrants are from countries with no historical or cultural link to Ireland whatsoever.

If you can show how the two situations are similar, and hence show how Irish people worrying about the current immigration is "ironic" or "hypocritical" or whatever, I am all ears.....

.

justcallmetex

SubjectSean wrote: »

Really I think anybody posting on this topic should actually go and live in the dirt and disease of the 3rd world for a while and try hard to remember that all men are brothers.

Thats what I'm talkin about!!!!!

I can't believe that there is one single person here with a family who wouldn't emigrate to another country if they could have even the slightest possibility of giving your children a better life.

goldenbrown

and face down the screaming 'right on' resistance to this policy...

SimpleSam06

SubjectSean wrote: »

Really I think anybody posting on this topic should actually go and live in the dirt and disease of the 3rd world for a while and try hard to remember that all men are brothers.

I have lived in third world countries, for several years, and not as part of a mission, charity work or any other organisation either. Not too many people I met would have regarded me as their brother.

Once again, we don't owe (and can't afford to owe) any favours to anyone, especially not individuals who view Ireland as a "soft touch", something that was quite the talk of the town in some parts of the globe.

justcallmetex wrote: »

Thats what I'm talkin about!!!!!

I can't believe that there is one single person here with a family who wouldn't emigrate to another country if they could have even the slightest possibility of giving your children a better life.

Most of the ones we are talking about here used their children (or more to the point put their heavily pregnant wife on an international flight) in order to abuse a system put there in the spirit of goodwill and friendship, something that risked both the life of the child and the life of the woman. Do you really want these people as your neighbours?

The_Conductor

SubjectSean wrote:

Really I think anybody posting on this topic should actually go and live in the dirt and disease of the 3rd world for a while and try hard to remember that all men are brothers.

Been there, done that. Thats what I meant when I referred to APSO......

SimpleSam06

HollyB wrote: »

Doesn't a decision in the EU courts trump one in our own courts?

OPENROAD wrote: »

Do we really? The EU has no influence with regards our laws, so we are not bound by EU Law, really? think you might be wrong, how did you come to that conclusion.

Unless they physically invade us, we most certainly can make and enforce our own laws. I'm not saying there wouldn't be other consequences, but we could do it. I wonder, would that mean we get our fishing grounds back?

Mr.Micro wrote: »

SimpleSam06 how do you think a booming economy can boom with labour and skill shortages? The Government sent delegations of civil servants abroad to encourage people to come to Ireland to fill the vacancies.

The economy isn't booming now, and when it was booming it was due to the reasons I mentioned, which lead directly to pay rises, which gave everyone this "land of opportunity" idea.

Now we're into inflation racing ahead of already uncompetitive pay, international interest rates climbing and crippling the free money pyramid schemes built earlier (including the property market), the tax takes from the boom period squandered on enlarging the public sector which still needs to be paid for (complete with non contributory pensions), and a glorious leader who gave himself a thirty eight grand pay rise this year, and tried to cover it up with a baldly transparent diversion, knocking half the drivers off the road. Why people aren't calling for his head by now is anyones guess. If every migrant worker upped stakes and hit the road tomorrow (with the exception of the health sevices I guess), we'd tick over just fine.

As for the government sending delegations abroad, I think you are underestimating the level of muppetry we are talking about here. You have a bunch of mé féiners with a chance to go abroad on a public-money junket. What does the reason matter?

The_Conductor

SimpleSam06 wrote:

the tax takes from the boom period squandered on enlarging the public sector which still needs to be paid for (complete with non contributory pensions)

Public sector employees since 1995 are compulsarily required to contribute to their pensions- when you factor in the different schemes that contributions are made to- it comes to about 9% of gross income. Those prior to 1995, do not make PRSI contibutions, and had the option of opting out of some of the contibutory schemes, but still had to pay towards their superannuation entitlements. Its a common misconception perpetuated by the media that they're all getting a free ride- its not actually the case though. Its such massive news these days because the government are required to make actuarial declarations (known as FRS17 declarations) detailing the costs of pension rights and entitlements. In some semi-state bodies with fewer than 2,000 employees- this can be a deficit valued at up to a billion Euro (as per annual published accounts).

justcallmetex

Most of the ones we are talking about here used their children (or more to the point put their heavily pregnant wife on an international flight) in order to abuse a system put there in the spirit of goodwill and friendship, something that risked both the life of the child and the life of the woman. Do you really want these people as your neighbours?[/quote]

The fact a man would be desperate enough to take a chance like the one you described only highlights the point I'm makin. Thanks. Makes no difference to me who my neighbor is, don't like the one's I got anyway drinkin and fighting 24 7 would rather have a people next door who care about their family.

johnathan woss

justcallmetex wrote: »

The fact a man would be desperate enough to take a chance like the one you described only highlights the point I'm makin. Thanks. Makes no difference to me who my neighbor is, don't like the one's I got anyway drinkin and fighting 24 7 would rather have a people next door who care about their family.

I cannot believe what I'm reading.
The fact that a man risks his pregnant wife's life in order to send her halfway across the world in search of better economic opportunities backs up your point of view ?

SimpleSam06

justcallmetex wrote: »

The fact a man would be desperate enough to take a chance like the one you described only highlights the point I'm makin. Thanks. Makes no difference to me who my neighbor is, don't like the one's I got anyway drinkin and fighting 24 7 would rather have a people next door who care about their family.

The man isn't taking a chance. Hes getting the women and unborn babies to take a chance.

justcallmetex

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

The man isn't taking a chance. Hes getting the women and unborn babies to take a chance.

you dont have children do u?

SimpleSam06

justcallmetex wrote: »

you dont have children do u?

Oh, won't somebody think of the children! :rolleyes: I'm not sure how you can cry that on one hand and on the other hand defend those who would risk the lives of women and children for their own financial betterment.

justcallmetex

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Oh, won't somebody think of the children! :rolleyes: I'm not sure how you can cry that on one hand and on the other hand defend those who would risk the lives of women and children for their own financial betterment.

you don't get it your name suits u

SubjectSean

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

I have lived in third world countries, for several years, and not as part of a mission, charity work or any other organisation either. Not too many people I met would have regarded me as their brother.

I don't know why that might be, that certainly isn't my experience and I was there on my own also. Eitherway, all men are brothers whether they recognise the fact or not.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Once again, we don't owe (and can't afford to owe) any favours to anyone, especially not individuals who view Ireland as a "soft touch", something that was quite the talk of the town in some parts of the globe.

Frankly this is nonsense. The economic system that underpins your well being, and that of your family, is entirely dependant on people in the 3rd world having to suffer. On behalf of us our Government here and in Europe, conspires with the other developed countries to keep the status quo. What this boils down to is more dead babies in Africa and elsewhere. You can wash your hands all you like but the grieving mothers know of your guilt.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Most of the ones we are talking about here used their children (or more to the point put their heavily pregnant wife on an international flight) in order to abuse a system put there in the spirit of goodwill and friendship, something that risked both the life of the child and the life of the woman. Do you really want these people as your neighbours?

So you think flying in luxury on a plane is more risky than trying to scratch a living in sub-saharan Africa for instance? Get real and have a heart.

SubjectSean

johnathan woss wrote: »

I cannot believe what I'm reading.
The fact that a man risks his pregnant wife's life in order to send her halfway across the world in search of better economic opportunities backs up your point of view ?

Even if this is a risk it pales to insignificance when seen beside the risks of remaining. Oh we who are spoiled rotten, without any conception of how hard life can be. Every day people die trying to get into our fortress where all the wealth in the world is.

HollyB

johnathan woss wrote: »

I cannot believe what I'm reading.
The fact that a man risks his pregnant wife's life in order to send her halfway across the world in search of better economic opportunities backs up your point of view ?

After the Citizenship Referendum, there is hopefully far less incentive for people to do this. The child won't be an Irish citizen. They'll be a <Whatever country/countries their parents are from> citizen who happened to be born in Ireland.

purple'n'gold

SubjectSean wrote: »

Even if this is a risk it pales to insignificance when seen beside the risks of remaining. Oh we who are spoiled rotten, without any conception of how hard life can be. Every day people die trying to get into our fortress where all the wealth in the world is.

If, as you say people die every day trying to get into our fortress, that’s their decision. We didn’t ask them to risk their lives.