Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

meanmachine3

damn ,instead of getting annoyed with all you anti- strike posters out there, i'm actually really starting to ejoy this thread.
i need me head examined:rolleyes:

ArmaniJeanss

gazzer wrote: »

This evening I left work and got a jam packed 39 as far as The Halfway House on the Navan Road. Got there for 6.50pm... There was a 38 due to leave Hawkins St at 6.30pm and a 38a due to leave at 6.40 so I was in plenty of time to get either of these buses. It takes between 25 minutes and 40 minutes for the bus to get to The Halfway House.

By 7.40 I was still wating for a bus. A 38C(that was due to leave Hawkins St at 6.20) passed by at 7.20pm full up and didnt stop. It was 7.45 before the 38A arrived. The 38 didnt arrive at all. While I was wating I rang the bus depot a number of times but the phone just rang out. The driver of the 38a couldnt tell me why the other bus didnt arrive.

Gazzer,
I was on the 6.40 38A and it wasn't really the drivers fault, more an unlucky run of circumstances.
It arrived at Easons in OConnellSt at about 6.55 so it was a bit late starting out. There was a huge amount of people getting on at the 2 O'Connell St stops (Probably because of the problem with the 38C breaking down etc) and it was near enough to 7.10 leaving OConnell St.
Then it got stuck in traffic turning from BerkelyRd onto NCR (which is often a nasty bottleneck), and the traffic-flow up the Cabra Road was poor as well.

AJ.

MOH

RTE News wrote:

Around 300 bus drivers from the Harristown bus depot in Dublin are protesting outside the headquarters of Dublin Bus in O'Connell Street.

Funny, they didn't have any problem getting into the city centre instead of Harristown this morning, did they?

bk

I'm actually starting to think that the government wants this strike.

As we've seen with the Taxi driver strike, the general public just doesn't support strikes any more and from this thread and almost 100% of people I've talked to about it over the last two days, no one supports this strike either.

When the general public (who mostly work in the private sector) hears about the reasons for this strike in the newspapers, etc. they throw their eyes to the heavens and say "welcome to the real world".

This all leads to a growing call amongst the general public for the privatisation of DB. Which of course suits the government perfectly.

For those who say that privatisation doesn't work, while it certainly doesn't work with buses here in Ireland at the moment, it can certainly work very well.

Just look at the example of London Bus, most people don't realise it but London bus is actually operated by about 12 private bus companies. The London Transport Authority defines the routes, the number of buses to be operated, the fare, type of buses to be used and even the look and branding on the buses and then puts each route out to tender and the private bus companies bid on the route.

The LTA monitors the operating of all routes and if the private operator doesn't meet the requirements, their contract is pulled and given to someone else.

The great thing about this system is that you get the best of both worlds, the advantages of a public bus service and the advantages of the private sector. Uneconomical routes are still serviced as the private bus company gets the contract price regardless of usage and the LTA finances uneconomical routes from the very busy routes. Also passengers benefit from a completely integrated system, they never know that the bus they take from day to day might actually be run by a different company, as all the fares, equipment, branding, website are all defined by LTA, not like the awful unintegrated system we get here between DB, Mortons, Swords Express etc. with different ticket systems, fares, bus types, websites, etc.

The point is privitisation can be done and it can be done well. An example of it being done well in Ireland is the LUAS, where the RPA defines the schedule, routes, trams used, ticketing, branding, etc. and monitors it's running but it is actually run by Veoila.

trellheim

The current Harristown squabble is quite simply the result of some very sloppy negotiation on BOTH sides.
In the rush to commission the Garage into service it appears as if BOTH Management and Unions failed to observe the most basic of protocol`s which are the staple of every amateur group which holds any form of collective discussion...Write Everything Down and have it Initialled...the very minimum of recording etiquette..

Brilliant ! As usual AS a pleasure to read.


What a lot of non-union people do not know is that there are an extremely rigid set of industrial relations in this country.

Not having an "Written Agreement" = Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear Caveat Emptor

Not accepting the Labour Court = Red Alert ! Shields Up ! Trouble Ahead...

My name is Mud

AlekSmart wrote: »

our Taoiseach,a fully qualified accountant

erm...slightly off topic here... but I believe Bertie is not an offically qualifed chartered, certified or public accountant at all. He is pretty much an accounts assistant on a career break from the Mater hospital, but yet he refers to himself as an accountant.

Slightly more on topic...

BOOURNS to strikes!

BOOURNS indeed.

John R

bk wrote: »

I'm actually starting to think that the government wants this strike.

As we've seen with the Taxi driver strike, the general public just doesn't support strikes any more and from this thread and almost 100% of people I've talked to about it over the last two days, no one supports this strike either.

When the general public (who mostly work in the private sector) hears about the reasons for this strike in the newspapers, etc. they throw their eyes to the heavens and say "welcome to the real world".

This all leads to a growing call amongst the general public for the privatisation of DB. Which of course suits the government perfectly.

For those who say that privatisation doesn't work, while it certainly doesn't work with buses here in Ireland at the moment, it can certainly work very well.

Just look at the example of London Bus, most people don't realise it but London bus is actually operated by about 12 private bus companies. The London Transport Authority defines the routes, the number of buses to be operated, the fare, type of buses to be used and even the look and branding on the buses and then puts each route out to tender and the private bus companies bid on the route.

The LTA monitors the operating of all routes and if the private operator doesn't meet the requirements, their contract is pulled and given to someone else.

The great thing about this system is that you get the best of both worlds, the advantages of a public bus service and the advantages of the private sector. Uneconomical routes are still serviced as the private bus company gets the contract price regardless of usage and the LTA finances uneconomical routes from the very busy routes. Also passengers benefit from a completely integrated system, they never know that the bus they take from day to day might actually be run by a different company, as all the fares, equipment, branding, website are all defined by LTA, not like the awful unintegrated system we get here between DB, Mortons, Swords Express etc. with different ticket systems, fares, bus types, websites, etc.

And all it takes is a €12 per day charge on every car entering central London to pay for it.

The government certainly do not want to implement that model of tendering as they do not want to pay for it.

It is an expensive way of running things and that is even with the very small profit margins that TfL force the operators to accept. Levels that they will not tolerate in smaller markets.

For all it's faults DB do supply a bus service for relatively little money.

bk wrote: »

The point is privitisation can be done and it can be done well. An example of it being done well in Ireland is the LUAS, where the RPA defines the schedule, routes, trams used, ticketing, branding, etc. and monitors it's running but it is actually run by Veoila.

It is a desperately inefficient faux competition model that effectively doubles the numbers of managerial staff, the real non-operational costs are hidden in the complex natures of the contracts involved.



Even if CIE is privatised, under EU laws the staff will have to be kept on under their current conditions. Like AerLingus are doing new employees can be hired with worse pay and conditions but legacy staff retain their status.

RuggieBear

I'm not in favour of this strike but i'm certainly not in favour of privatisation.

I visit the Wirral a lot. In the last 3 years, Arriva who operate the bus service there have reduced the frequency on my route from 6 buses an hour to 2 while at the same time the price has more than doubled.

Arriva have also canned a number of loss making routes and now get a subsuidy from the local auuthority to operate some of them.

So basically, the council has gone from running the bus service to paying a private company to run a much reduced, more expensive bus service.

jonny68

I have no sympathy for these drivers grinning in the paper yesterday as thousands of commuters myself included spend antoehr nightmare morning and evening tryint to get into and come home from work, if i had thr npower id suspend the fu*king lot of them indefinitely until they came back to work.:mad:

boopolo

I have no sympathy either Jonny. Seen all this before.

These whingers are not in the real world. They actually only drive for about six hours on the paticular route they dispute. Suspend them all if they dont want to do the work they are paid to do.

They are actually putting the final nail in the coffin for themselves and opening up to privatisation. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, time will tell. But Dublin can not be held to ransom time and time again by these lazy whingers.

Boopolo

bk

RuggieBear wrote: »

I'm not in favour of this strike but i'm certainly not in favour of privatisation.

I visit the Wirral a lot. In the last 3 years, Arriva who operate the bus service there have reduced the frequency on my route from 6 buses an hour to 2 while at the same time the price has more than doubled.

Arriva have also canned a number of loss making routes and now get a subsuidy from the local auuthority to operate some of them.

By the LTA model, this would not happen, as LTA define the routes and schedule, if the bus operator doesn't perform to the agreed schedule, then they lose the contract and it is given to some one else.

Yes the LTA model would require some subsidy, just like almost all public transport systems do. In fact under a LTA model, the government would actually be able to increase their subsidy, something they can't do now, due to being blocked by the EU.

BTW the type of privitisation we have now with Mortons and Swords Express is more like the Wirral model and has the same potential problems, that is why I propose we should go for the far superior LTA model.

markpb

Do you honestly belive we could pull of the TfL model properly? I'd love to believe we could but look at the most recent high profile privatision - Eircom, ComReg are hardly a role model to live up to. Do you think the new DTA would remove a bus op license within a reasonable amount of time or do you think they'd ignore the issue for weeks, go into negotation, ignore the issue a bit more, threaten (or be threatened by) legal action, etc all the while buses are pulled from unprofitable routes. Like someone else has already said, do you think the government would be willing to fund the TfL model enough to keep operators in the business or would it try to get the cheapest option and further service levels.

rs

First things first. I don't like Unions and I hate Strikes.

I had no sympathy for the nurses during their strike as to me it was simply a case of them wanting more money for less work and it was timed to try an impact an election. I saw it as a simple case of greed at the expense of the patients.

But I do have sympathy in this case. Starting and finishing work 11km apart and forcing drivers to add at least an extra 60 minutes of commute onto their working day is crap. If my job were to forcibly add over an hour to my commuting time, I'd be pretty pissed about it too.

Having to take breaks in town, I really don't see what the issue is at all. But finishing work in town, having to take a bus out to the airport to collect your car and then having to start your commute home. An extra hour (or more) away from your family a day is an unpleasant thing to have forced on you. Commutes to and from work in Dublin are crappy enough as it is.

Luckily, I'm not really directly affected by the strike. I imagine my opinion would be different if I was.

MOH

rs wrote: »

But I do have sympathy in this case. Starting and finishing work 11km apart and forcing drivers to add at least an extra 60 minutes of commute onto their working day is crap. If my job were to forcibly add over an hour to my commuting time, I'd be pretty pissed about it too.

Having to take breaks in town, I really don't see what the issue is at all. But finishing work in town, having to take a bus out to the airport to collect your car and then having to start your commute home. An extra hour (or more) away from your family a day is an unpleasant thing to have forced on you. Commutes to and from work in Dublin are crappy enough as it is.

It seems that only drivers working very early or very late shifts on a couple of routes will have this 'extra commute', for (most of) which they will be paid.

In which case it's not adding 60 minutes to everyone's working day every day, which seems to be the spin the unions are putting on it.

TheDoc

i was going to say some of the likes above like suspend but that it slightly against our way of living. But as public servants I think that would be acceptable, if you are going to deprive 60,000 people of an essential service, screw you your not getting paid, and your on suspension.

Probably because I'm a cold hearted bastard I feel this way.... but like ive stated before im also in a line of work that serves the public a need and service, and there is talk of our organisation going on strike, and management have simply said " go on strike, dont ever come back to work".

Trying working a 12 hour shift in retail then give some gripes.

My reference to management. There is drastic contradictions to those who have worked internally up to management positions and those who have entered an organisation straight into management level. Its the same in every job everywhere, some work up some come straight in with degrees behind them.

I don't know who runs dublin bus nor do I care. But...

If the management making the decisions where promoted internally, they would understand this new implementation would involve unsettling bus drivers. They would understand problems and concerns before the idea passes the initial thought process.

Someone who comes externally into the organisation as management was probably thinking. " ok we need to give more service to this area " for whatever reason. And the concerns and problems where not thought off.

I'm going to assume, that when the idea was thought up, unions and bus driving reps where consulted and employees could make their feelings known. Thats what any good management team would do when implementing a change in the workplace or workpractice.

Then when they have weighed up the arguements, they make their decision.

So I'm going to assume, and i must state ASSUME. That the idea was put to DBus representitves, they then made their objections felt. After this the pros and cons where weighed up.

After this process it was obviously decided that the idea would go ahead, as the concerns did not weigh substantially to disrupt the idea for new routes. Basically, the only problem was bus drivers finishing in town instead of the airport, thus making their trip home longer.

And I think anyone with a bit of cop on would agree with the decision. Obviously the bus drivers will not.

But at the end of the day, you dont even pay bus fare So not like its costing you.

I also had to laugh reading an interview with a bus driver how he said this new action and having him finishing up further from home would "damage" and "effect" his relationship with his family.

I think some people need to unravel themselves from their cotton wool world.

My father is a postman and gets up at 5am every morning to travel miles away, breaks his neck doing his shift then goes and does overtime, he then goes and does nights so he can provide a good standard of living for his family because he wants too.

And bus drivers are having a whine because their journey home is now an hour not 20 minutes. Give me a break.

boopolo

rs wrote: »

But I do have sympathy in this case. Starting and finishing work 11km apart and forcing drivers to add at least an extra 60 minutes of commute onto their working day is crap. If my job were to forcibly add over an hour to my commuting time, I'd be pretty pissed about it too.

But the guy on the radio from D.B. says they are paid for this commute, and the striker didnt dissagree with this.

I dont get paid during my commuting. I also dont get it for free either.

Boopolo

January

They get paid for 46 minutes commuting time. Which is a lot less than the time it takes to commute from the city to the airport.

Cervantes

One question:

Can the Harristown Garage drivers, starting their shift in town, clock in and out there (city centre)? Or is it stipulated that they must clock in and out at the Harristown garage?

bk

markpb wrote:

Do you honestly belive we could pull of the TfL model properly? I'd love to believe we could but look at the most recent high profile privatision - Eircom, ComReg are hardly a role model to live up to.

Yes, it can be done, just look at the LUAS, or the great job that is being done by the NRA on the roads projects.

With just a little will and the right person at the top of the DTA, it can be done.

We as Irish people spend far too much time moaning and complaining and too much time saying "ah sure we are only Irish, that will never work in Ireland". It is typical old Irish thinking and it is typical public sector thinking.

Yet Ireland is changing at a tremendous pace, there is a whole other sector of the new Irish society that is flexible, energetic and willing to solve problems. Just look at the IFSC and IT industries in Ireland, the people who work in these industries are considered some of the most efficient and productive in the world and easily compete and win business in an extremely competitive international market.

I must say I'm completely feed up with the old Irish narrow minded thinking. It has no place amongst the young people of Ireland today, who believe anything can be done. You either work to make Ireland a better place for all people or get the hell out of the way.

markpb wrote:

Do you think the new DTA would remove a bus op license within a reasonable amount of time or do you think they'd ignore the issue for weeks, go into negotation, ignore the issue a bit more, threaten (or be threatened by) legal action, etc all the while buses are pulled from unprofitable routes.

First of all the operators would have no reason to pull buses off unprofitable, remember under the TfL system, the bus operator doesn't get any of the fare money, all the fare money goes to TfL. The bus operator gets paid a fixed fee for the contract, regardless of passenger numbers.

TfL subsidises under performing routes from the extra money made on over performing routes and of course subsidies.

This whole idea of buses being pulled by private operators from uneconomical routes is simply FUD spread by unionists and people who want to keep their nice public sector jobs, IMO.

Also if the NRA can enforce contracts on road contractors, there is absolutely no reason why the DTA can't do the same?

markpb wrote:

Like someone else has already said, do you think the government would be willing to fund the TfL model enough to keep operators in the business or would it try to get the cheapest option and further service levels.

Yes, I do.

First of all why would a subsidy to the DTA be all that more then the current subsidy to DB. Remember DB current run a surplus (what other business call a profit!!)?

Remember DB actually get one of the smallest subsidy of any bus operators in Europe, so we aren't all that far from a private sector at the moment. The reason why the subsidy is so low at the moment is that the EU is actually blocking the Irish government from increasing the subsidy.

It is not that the EU is against subsidy for public transport, in fact most bus services in major european cities are very heavily subsidised, it is just that the EU want the subsidy to be available in an open and transparent manner to both public and private bus services.

So if Dublin was to switch to a TfL model, then the government would actually be allowed to increase the subsidy and I honestly believe that the government would be happy to do that.

My name is Mud

Cervantes wrote: »

Can the Harristown Garage drivers, starting their shift in town, clock in and out there (city centre)? Or is it stipulated that they must clock in and out at the Harristown garage?

Its up to the driver where they clock in/out.

The issue at hand is from drivers having to finish in town, get back to Harristown (while being paid I might add) and then clock out.

Seems farsicle dont it...? Considering the striking Harristown drivers got themselves into the city centre today, picketed Dublin Bus O'Connell Street, and then went back to Harristown!

paulm17781

adrieanne__x wrote: »

They get paid for 46 minutes commuting time. Which is a lot less than the time it takes to commute from the city to the airport.

I've gotten the 4 from O'Connel st. to Ballymun many times, some during rush hour. 46 minutes is surely longer than it takes eitherway. I can leave Ballymun on the 8.20 4, get to Trinity, walk to the Luas, get the Luas to Balally and get into work at 9.10am sometime a little earlier. I have done this several times.

I think DB management have handled this awfully and forcing it on the drivers is a terrible move. None the less I have absolutely no sympathy now that there is a strike. If I can get to the other side of the city during the morning rush hour on this route, drivers can easily get from town to Harristown in 46 minutes.

dub_commuter

There are 200 buses in Harristown at least, whilst your idea about clocking in and clocking out in the Town seems a good one, you are forgetting you require 200 drivers to drive the buses in to Town every morning and then another 200 when the buses are finished with.

Or you could just leave them at home, or in the city centre, and wonder why your bus breaks down because it has not been protected or cared for properly because of this very reason.

The fact is buses and shifts are managed in a way that there are many drivers who drive all through both peaks, and the same with the buses, so they have their breaks in times where less buses are required. By taking them back to the garage, drivers are more happy to do this, which translates to extra timetabled services for you.

For example some drivers used to operate 8 hour shifts with a 4 hour break, they will operate between say 7-11 then start again around say 3, and then finish at 7pm. Of course we could get rid of the breaks and have less buses in the evening peak and driver changes during evening peak when they are required causing chaos. This shift system allows a better service during peak, and to allow the number of buses to reduce in off-peak when they are not needed.

Of course the other alternative to doing the above is to recruit more bus drivers and buy more buses to increase the level of service, I am sure you would be perfectly happy to see costs cut for passengers and your fares to rise because of this demand?

dub_commuter

paulm17781 wrote: »

I've gotten the 4 from O'Connel st. to Ballymun many times, some during rush hour. 46 minutes is surely longer than it takes eitherway. I can leave Ballymun on the 8.20 4, get to Trinity, walk to the Luas, get the Luas to Balally and get into work at 9.10am sometime a little earlier. I have done this several times.

I think DB management have handled this awfully and forcing it on the drivers is a terrible move. None the less I have absolutely no sympathy now that there is a strike. If I can get to the other side of the city during the morning rush hour on this route, drivers can easily get from town to Harristown in 46 minutes.

For someone who does that journey daily I can actually say I have never had that happen. It can take up to 10 minutes to get from one end of O'Connell Street to another.

MOH

dub_commuter wrote: »

For example some drivers used to operate 8 hour shifts with a 4 hour break, they will operate between say 7-11 then start again around say 3, and then finish at 7pm. Of course we could get rid of the breaks and have less buses in the evening peak and driver changes during evening peak when they are required causing chaos. This shift system allows a better service during peak, and to allow the number of buses to reduce in off-peak when they are not needed.

So they drive to Harristown, work their shift, and finish in town at 7pm. At which stage evening peak time is past and they should be able to get back out to Harristown inside the paid 46 minutes. No problem there.

And you also seem to be implying that this new system of changeover in the city centre is going to apply to all 200 buses every day? First I've heard of that.

Turbulent Bill

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Gazzer,
I was on the 6.40 38A and it wasn't really the drivers fault, more an unlucky run of circumstances.
It arrived at Easons in OConnellSt at about 6.55 so it was a bit late starting out. There was a huge amount of people getting on at the 2 O'Connell St stops (Probably because of the problem with the 38C breaking down etc) and it was near enough to 7.10 leaving OConnell St.
Then it got stuck in traffic turning from BerkelyRd onto NCR (which is often a nasty bottleneck), and the traffic-flow up the Cabra Road was poor as well.

AJ.

I was on this bus too. It was late leaving Hawkin's St and, as ArmaniJeans said, things only got worse from then on. According to the inspector, most of the 38/A services were running, but due to delays on O'Connell St all departures from Hawkin's St were delayed.

bk

I want to show just how ridiculous this situation is

Take two neighbours living in Swords, one a person working in the private sector in the city centre, the other the bus driver.

The private sector guy leaves in the morning, pays to get on a bus, arrives in town and goes to work. At the end on the evening, he pays to get back in the bus and heads home to Swords. This guys gets paid zero for his commute time and has to pay for the bus.

Now the bus driver drives from Swords to Harristown, picks up the bus and starts the route. When he finishes the route (usually at an off peak time) he hands the bus over to another driver and gets on another bus as a passenger, doesn't need to pay any fare and gets paid for 45 minutes during this journey back to Harristown, picks up his car and makes the rest of the journey home to Swords.

The important point here is that unlike the person in the private sector, the bus driver is actually getting PAID for half his commute time!!!!

This line being spun by the Unions that it is forced paid overtime is complete BS.

It is more like extra pay for the slight inconvenience caused in having to commute, that non of the rest of us ordinary private sector works get.

dub_commuter

MOH wrote: »

So they drive to Harristown, work their shift, and finish in town at 7pm. At which stage evening peak time is past and they should be able to get back out to Harristown inside the paid 46 minutes. No problem there.

And you also seem to be implying that this new system of changeover in the city centre is going to apply to all 200 buses every day? First I've heard of that.

I said SOME, not all, the vast majority will not, I was just using them as an example about how shifts work, if you o back a few pages you will see that there are a few different types of shifts.

Whilst it will not happen to all of the buses at first, there is real fear that this will happen, both at Harristown and any future garages that may be built by Dublin Bus.

dub_commuter

bk wrote: »

I want to show just how ridiculous this situation is

Take two neighbours living in Swords, one a person working in the private sector in the city centre, the other the bus driver.

The private sector guy leaves in the morning, pays to get on a bus, arrives in town and goes to work. At the end on the evening, he pays to get back in the bus and heads home to Swords. This guys gets paid zero for his commute time and has to pay for the bus.

Now the bus driver drives from Swords to Harristown, picks up the bus and starts the route. When he finishes the route (usually at an off peak time) he hands the bus over to another driver and gets on another bus as a passenger, doesn't need to pay any fare and gets paid for 45 minutes during this journey back to Harristown, picks up his car and makes the rest of the journey home to Swords.

The important point here is that unlike the person in the private sector, the bus driver is actually getting PAID for half his commute time!!!!

This line being spun by the Unions that it is forced paid overtime is complete BS.

It is more like extra pay for the slight inconvenience caused in having to commute, that non of the rest of us ordinary private sector works get.

I won't bother to give this post a proper reply. I would kindly refer you to the other posts in this thread as we are going over the same things again and again.

Commute Time = Your journey home. It does not include driving a company car back to where you hired from for example if you had one.
Driving back to Garage will not be heading anywhere near home and in some cases driving away = Not a commute
Driving from Garage home in your car or on a bus after shift is finished and you have returned your bus = commute

To compare your issue CORRECTLY with a bus driver, would be when your shift finishes at 5pm, you must then go to head office (This is not commuting, it is caused inconveniences) AFTER your finish time AND ONLY THEN do you go home. Your commute starts when you leave head office.

Sick and tired over going old ground, no wonder half the DB staff on here have gone off, it's just 18 pages of the same questions over and over again. I won't be contributing any more till someone asks something that has not already been covered.

paulm17781

dub_commuter wrote: »

For someone who does that journey daily I can actually say I have never had that happen. It can take up to 10 minutes to get from one end of O'Connell Street to another.

Had what happen, get to Balally in under 50 minutes? I've done it 4 times out of the 4 times I've had to. Pretty good success rate. I don't doubt it can take 10 minutes to get up O'Connell st, I've sat in it. but none the less, I have crossed the city in 50 minutes during rush hour 100% of the time I've had to.

paulm17781

dub_commuter wrote: »

Commute Time = Your journey home. It does not include driving a company car back to where you hired from for example if you had one.
Driving back to Garage will not be heading anywhere near home and in some cases driving away = Not a commute
Driving from Garage home in your car or on a bus after shift is finished and you have returned your bus = commute

To compare your issue CORRECTLY with a bus driver, would be when your shift finishes at 5pm, you must then go to head office (This is not commuting, it is caused inconveniences) AFTER your finish time AND ONLY THEN do you go home. Your commute starts when you leave head office.

Semantics! Is there anything they can't do???