20% foreign people in Ireland now - highest in Europe

mada999

Joeyjoejoe43 wrote:

I agree, muppets...

Agreed...

gazzer

Due to unfortunete circunstances my younger brother and my sister broke up with their partners. My brother & sister both have one child each. And all living with my parents in the three bed house.

All was looking rosie with the Ballymun regeneration project, but as new apartments and house's became availably both my brother and sister was pushed further and further back on the waiting list as immigrants where given priority on availably housing.

Could your brother and sister not apply for different areas where there might not be as many people on the waiting list??

K-9

Mairt wrote:

Due to unfortunete circunstances my younger brother and my sister broke up with their partners. My brother & sister both have one child each. And all living with my parents in the three bed house.

All was looking rosie with the Ballymun regeneration project, but as new apartments and house's became availably both my brother and sister was pushed further and further back on the waiting list as immigrants where given priority on availably housing.

Blame the Council then. The Council should maybe give priority to local residents first, something similar to in country areas, giving planning permission first to locals.Some immigrants may have genuine housing needs as well.

If it was say, country people getting the houses first, it would still be Councils problem.

moe_sizlak

wyk wrote:

Well, not really. NO Irish would have it for the hours(which are half what I did in the states for the same pay), so acquiring a permit wasn't too difficult. Which is sort of what's goin on in the States. Many immigrants do jobs Americans won't do....Like building a fence on the border, say...
Currently there are an estimated 60,000 Irish citizens in the States illegally, btw. The US isn't concerned. Right now the US is too busy concentrating on illegal mexican immigrants whom are basically the backbone of their economy...

ALL culture is worth protecting, especially one as beautiful and storied as the Irish. I'm NOT Irish and even I know that statement from crianp was rubbish.

The US _DO_ place limitations and quotas on immigration, either directly or by defacto regulations. The US is far more strict than it once was. Much more so than Ireland is. The way many immigrate to the US is via jobs, marriage, or just illegally. The US immigration service is so busy, the chances of being deported without actually committing a serious crime is virtually nonexistant.

Back to Ireland. I spent plenty of time in immigration being grilled with questions and proving whom I was, that I could work, was permitted, could give references, etc. And this was with an American passport and €2900 in my pocket, let alone what's in my bank account. So the government is doing it's job at making sure as best it can that most landing on your shores do so legally, and don't seem too desperate. So, this means a good amount of your immigration is for jobs the Irish do not do, or not enough do. Very similar to the US(only the US has a huge border that is virtually unmanned). Once these jobs are filled, or the economy slows, the influx will slow, or outflow - though it's doubtful to outflow anytime soon as a large amount of the immigrants are polish and middle eastern.

Yes, get used to it. N0, do not allow it unabated. And protect and promote your culture as best you can. You didn't fight with the Brits for 800 years simply to let Pols come in and set up shop. They need to know that the Irish culture is part of the geography. That you do not exist merely as a job and welfare for them. How to go about that is the trick. America does it with capitalistic brainwashing. How can we do it reasonably?

Wez

the current obsession in the usa right now over mexican illegal immigration is a peculiar one , the likes of fox news and conservative radio pumps out anti mexican thetoric on a daily basis , thee only thing is , this is nothing but a cynical ploy by fox news etc to divert attention away from the disaster that is iraq so as to try and improove on bushes lousy rattings , the illegal mexican card always works when trying to scare the republican base , john mc cain recently spearheaded a cross party immigration campaign to allow illegals who have been in the usa for a long time to be given the chance to apply for citizenship , it was scuppered by grassroots republicans inspired by the scaremongering of the likes of rush limbaugh and fox news , while you might disagree and say immigration is a legitimite issue and it is , the people who employ mexicans in the usa are by and large farmers who hire mexicans to as labourers , farmers in the usa overwhelmingly vote republican
all in all there is a lot of contradiction and double standards as regards the current debate over mexican immigration in the usa

fly_agaric

crianp wrote:

I think this is rather telling of the European Mindset, you want to force integration instead of letting it just happen like it does in the USA. ...I think not, European people just need to grow up and realize that preserving your culture is a waste of time,

Europe is not the US. The old cultures which existed in N. America were totally destroyed, making possible the creation of the current mishmash state/culture by waves of immigrants mostly from different parts of Europe. The old/original cultures still exist in Europe.

I suppose Europe is more like the rest of the world and the US is unusual in this respect.

liberty 2007

My son went for a part-time job in a fast food take-away recently.
About 6 people for the interview, most were foreign. the three people enterviewing were foreign. He didnt get the job.

Macha

liberty 2007 wrote:

My son went for a part-time job in a fast food take-away recently.
About 6 people for the interview, most were foreign. the three people enterviewing were foreign. He didnt get the job.

And?? If you're going to say something say it. You said yourself that the majority of people who went for the intervew were foreign. Therefore on pure statistics it was more likely that a foreign person get the job.

Do you have any idea how much racism there is in the employment sector against immigrants? I used to work in a recruitment agency and I can tell you that one of Ireland's largest banks refused to even interview foreigners. The only exception they made was for Polish people, who were there to deal with their Polish clients

The problem with housing in this country is entirely the fault of the government and the local authorities. Over the last 10 years, the net increase in local authority housing units is something arund 2,000. In 2004 there were officially 48,400 families in need of social housing. In 1975 33% of housing was provided by local authorities. Now its only 7%. Not only that, local authorities are actually selling the housing units they do have at a discount to the occupiers!

Blame the government, not the immigrants. They allowed them in but didnt prepare adequately for them, be it in terms of housing, infrastructure, etc

George Galloway

darkman2 wrote:

Well, we kind of knew, but its been confirmed by the CSO that 20% of the population here is now foreign. We believed we would learn from other countries mistakes in relation to integration etc but now we have raced past them and find ourselves in a difficult position that they are not even in yet! In the context of the country's practically first 'black school' open in Balbriggan (descibed in the Senate today as 'apparthied') we now have major questions that we must answer and decisions we have to take - hard ones for lefties IMO - if we are not to see potentially disastrous societal problems here in the next decade. The liberals were warned - the silent majority kept silently thinking it and now we have sleeped walked into a situation where I believe the social cohesion of this country is now being put at risk.

I read a letter in a local newsletter today from a girl in secondary school countering accusations that her classmates were racist to a black student and would not associate or talk to her. The liberals in the area hopped on it as usual. But in her letter she said this was complete rubbish and the OPPOSITE was the case. She claimed the sizeable foreign students in the secondary school were not associating with the Irish but rather just forming a large ethnic group that would not even talk to the Irish students.

Perhaps a small localised issues but the alarm bells are starting to ring now with me. We have gone too far and the hens are quickly coming home to roost - even the bleeding heart liberals are quiet now - which seems to suggest they recognise that we are heading for trouble faster then any of our EU neighbours.

Though I would of thought Kevin Myers rumblings every week in the independent about the need to quickly get our thumbs out of our ass by articulating what we all privately know is warning enough.

How much trouble are we honestly in? And what realistically can we do with enough firmness to slow this tide which simply cannot continue?

This is an issue that requires urgency.


P.S no racism please.

Bullsh*t. Can you back up your 20% claim with a link please?

And what's the big problem with allowing LEGAL immigrants into the country? Isn't that what the EU is about? If your job is being taken by a foreigner, then tough sh*t - you're obviously crap at your job if you can't hold it down. You should embrace and thrive on healthy competition, not fear it and bitch & moan about it.

Terry

I see you read the entire thread before posting. Good man.
I'm guessing you just read the thread in Feedback which mentions this one and decided to come in and troll.
I like the new name, but George Galloway is against immigration, is he not?
Don't bother answering that. You'll be gone in a few minutes anyway.

Bye now.

Also, please stop signing up here. It's getting old.

mike65

Over 100,000 people immigrate to the USA every year and do you hear them making a fuss over it, I think not

crianp while obviously wrong about numbers into the States (more like 1 million a year) is perfectly right about the notion of 'culture'.

A nations culture is, what it is, at any given moment. Nothing is cast in stone. If it were those bloody Danes should have been shown the door and all thier works scrubbed from Ireland and the Irish, ditto the Normans, the English, Welsh, Scottish, Huguenots, Spanish, North Africans (possibly) etc over the last 1200 years.

Mike.

moe_sizlak

George Galloway wrote:

Bullsh*t. Can you back up your 20% claim with a link please?

And what's the big problem with allowing LEGAL immigrants into the country? Isn't that what the EU is about? If your job is being taken by a foreigner, then tough sh*t - you're obviously crap at your job if you can't hold it down. You should embrace and thrive on healthy competition, not fear it and bitch & moan about it.

never thought id see the day when george galloway is promoting the idea of competition
sorry , couldnt resist

liberty 2007

taconnol wrote:

And?? If you're going to say something say it.

The point I'm making is, that so called racism, works both ways. If you think for a minute, the people coming to this country to settle, will ever consider themselves Irish, your fooling yourself and everyone who listens to you.
The only way this could happen, is if their numbers significantly small enough that would naturally intergrate.
That sure aint the case!!

Macha

liberty 2007 wrote:

The point I'm making is, that so called racism, works both ways. If you think for a minute, the people coming to this country to settle, will ever consider themselves Irish, your fooling yourself and everyone who listens to you.
The only way this could happen, is if their numbers significantly small enough that would naturally intergrate.
That sure aint the case!!

Why do they have to consider themselves Irish? You sound like the thought police. I have lived in foreign countries for 4+ years and never considered myself anything other than Irish. It doesn't mean I caused problems in those countries.

Whatever happened to the idea of multiculturalism? I personally find monoculturalism boring and artificial in this globalised world.

Terry

Multiculturalism leads to ghettoism.

We only have to look across the water to see that.

bonkey

Terry wrote:

Multiculturalism leads to ghettoism.

We only have to look across the water to see that.

Because, as everyone knows, correlation is sufficient to imply causation.

Terry

Give me an example of a place where multiculturalism hasn't lead to ghettoism.

I'll gladly accept being proved wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

Note: I'm not asking that every immigrant in this country lives their lives in the exact same way as everyone else, just for a bit of consideration to be given to the fact that Ireland could end up with ghettos if action isn't taken to help with integration.

the_syco

Over 100,000 people immigrate to the USA every year and do you hear them making a fuss over it, I think not

/me looks at the size of the US, compared to Ireland

bonkey

Terry wrote:

Give me an example of a place where multiculturalism hasn't lead to ghettoism.

I'm not aware of any ghettos in Switzerland....but like you I'm open to being shown wrong.

Even if there are, and even if there are no countries with multiculturalism but without ghettos, its still assuming correlation is causation - that the only factor one needs is the existence of multiple cultures and then....bang....ghettos spring up.

just for a bit of consideration to be given to the fact that Ireland could end up with ghettos if action isn't taken to help with integration.

I agree. Ireland could end up with ghettos.

Ironically, one of the biggest risks I would see is the lack of acceptance of foreign cultures. The insistence that they must change in certain ways in order to "fit in" is, from my perspective, the most likely driving factor which will lead to such ghettos.

Terry

bonkey wrote:

I'm not aware of any ghettos in Switzerland....but like you I'm open to being shown wrong.

Even if there are, and even if there are no countries with multiculturalism but without ghettos, its still assuming correlation is causation - that the only factor one needs is the existence of multiple cultures and then....bang....ghettos spring up.



I agree. Ireland could end up with ghettos.

Ironically, one of the biggest risks I would see is the lack of acceptance of foreign cultures. The insistence that they must change in certain ways in order to "fit in" is, from my perspective, the most likely driving factor which will lead to such ghettos.

Well of course there has to be leeway on the side of the Irish people too.

Intolerance does play a major part, but you can only be tolerant of so much.
There has to be some initiative on the part of those moving here.
They need to accept that not all of their customs and local laws are acceptable in Ireland. (Female circumcision springs to mind).

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

you going to tell any jewish migrants they can't circumsise their male children?

I'd be in favour of an all out ban on circumsision, but just pointing to female circumsision as the be all end all of cruelty when the male version is as gruesome...

Macha

Terry wrote:

Intolerance does play a major part, but you can only be tolerant of so much.
There has to be some initiative on the part of those moving here.
They need to accept that not all of their customs and local laws are acceptable in Ireland. (Female circumcision springs to mind).

I think the correct term is Female Genital Mutilation. It's nothing nothing like male circumcision.

sorry just being pedantic

Terry

I knew that was going to come back and bite me.

It was just the first thing that came to mind. Believe me, I too believe circumcision is a barbaric ritual. If someone chooses to have it done as an adult, then fair enough (although I do have a personal problem with cosmetic surgery of any kind, but that's another story for another day), but to mutilate a child of either gnder, is just cruel.
Also, I believe muslims also practice this, but I could be wrong.

gurramok

bonkey wrote:

I'm not aware of any ghettos in Switzerland....but like you I'm open to being shown wrong.

Even if there are, and even if there are no countries with multiculturalism but without ghettos, its still assuming correlation is causation - that the only factor one needs is the existence of multiple cultures and then....bang....ghettos spring up.



I agree. Ireland could end up with ghettos.

Ironically, one of the biggest risks I would see is the lack of acceptance of foreign cultures. The insistence that they must change in certain ways in order to "fit in" is, from my perspective, the most likely driving factor which will lead to such ghettos.

Foreign cultures(not foreigners themselves to be distinct in difference) should not be brought into a host country, integration is whats needed.

Even Switzerland where you are is having is own issues and uproar with tightening of granting citizenship, 'Too many Germans coming to live in Switzerland', the rise of right-wing parties over immigration, tightening of asylum laws.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6992670.stm

Call for ban on Minarets by biggest Swiss political party
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6676271.stm

It sounds from an outsider view that multi-culturalism has not worked over there?

If Switzerland is the best example of where multi-culturalism is supposed to have worked, it ain't looking good at all for the rest of Europe.

mise_me_fein

Totally agree gurramok.

Good post and good stuff to back it up.

liberty 2007

taconnol wrote:

Why do they have to consider themselves Irish? You sound like the thought police. I have lived in foreign countries for 4+ years and never considered myself anything other than Irish. It doesn't mean I caused problems in those countries.

Whatever happened to the idea of multiculturalism? I personally find monoculturalism boring and artificial in this globalised world.

4 years is nothing, Wait until it's 44 years here. Will our childrens children thank us for what we've allowed happen?

It's not so much about you or I Causing Problems, It's about numbers.
And as far as problems or conflict is concerned, it's usually caused by tiny minoraties and the rest of society can get sucked in unwillingly.

darkman2

Incidentally the British government has said that 'multi-culturalism' has 'failed'. The reason is simple - 'multi-culturalism' implies that sections of society can opt out of the indigenous way of life because their cultures are different leaving a morass of segregated communities across Southern England with little intention to mix with British people and British norms. This was a big mistake.

The correct approach is that if you want to come here you must abide by our laws and our way of life or else dont come. There should be no exceptions made at all. Integrate or go home should be the message. I can gaurentee that if we went to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan we would not be able to stick out in such a manner as some immigrants here! Maybe their own countries have the right idea in some respects!

bonkey

gurramok wrote:

Foreign cultures(not foreigners themselves to be distinct in difference) should not be brought into a host country, integration is whats needed.

There is precious little in Ireland as a "host country" that isn't an imported foreign culture. We're as Americanised as the next developed nation, and what we haven't taken from the US, we've taken from the British. Western Europe has had its own influence, but to a lesser degree.

The difference seems to be when one gets to cultural influences from outside the developed (Western) nations. Then, all of a sudden, we can't be having any of that.....

The problem seems to be a distinction between what is alien/unfamiliar, and what is familiar. Familiar foreign cultural influences...they're fine.

Even Switzerland where you are is having is own issues and uproar with tightening of granting citizenship, 'Too many Germans coming to live in Switzerland', the rise of right-wing parties over immigration, tightening of asylum laws.

I made the point that Terry's connection between Multiculturalism and ghettoism was at least partly an assumption of correlation equalling causation.

Where from this, and my quoting of Switzerland as a counter-point did you get the impression that I was suggesting that there were no issues of any sort relating to immigration and/or asylum?

It sounds from an outsider view that multi-culturalism has not worked over there?

From an outsider view, where many of the important factors are overlooked, one can indeed conclude that multiculturalism hasn't worked here.

You see a call for a ban on minarets from the largest party (who holds 56 seats, or 26%, where the next largest holds 52 seats)

I saw a call for a ban which was widely decried as being ridiculous and not the Swiss way of doing things, which was subsequently defeated. I saw that the defeat was accepted by those who proposed it and hailed by those who opposed it (including non-political organisations, including Muslim councils) as being a good example of the Swiss system in action. I saw a call for a ban which was almost-certainly intended to fail - which was launched more for the opportunity to stir things up a bit with elections only round the corner (which they are).

Ironically, the most notable "racially motivated" violence of recent times was this weekend just passed...where Swiss left-wing extremists ran riot in Bern to upset a Swiss right-wing political rally (the SVP). So while the SVP tell us about the dangers that (some) foreigners pose to us all...it is their fellow Swiss citizens who are the ones to break the peace.

If Switzerland is the best example of where multi-culturalism is supposed to have worked, it ain't looking good at all for the rest of Europe.

This is your conclusion, based - as you've admitted - on an outsider's point of view.

From my point of view, the Swiss need to deal with the Swiss hate-mongers on both sides so they can continue doing what they've always done...figuring out how best to make things work through fair compromise, rather than taking some absolutist stance that can only lead to divisiveness and thus to failure.

bonkey

darkman2 wrote:

The correct approach is that if you want to come here you must abide by our laws and our way of life or else dont come.

What nations have successfully managed to implement this?

I ask because everytime I question the "multiculturalism has failed" argument, I'm asked to give an example that backs up by position....so I think its only fair that those who put foward a position on what the right approach is should be able to show how its worked somewhere.

I can gaurentee that if we went to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan we would not be able to stick out in such a manner as some immigrants here! Maybe their own countries have the right idea in some respects!

In other words...the right approach is to adopt the culture of suppression and oppression that these foreign nations are using?

So you disagree that foreign cultural influences should be kept out, then...you seem quite willing to embrace one over our historically more open approach.

OPENROAD

gurramok wrote:

Foreign cultures(not foreigners themselves to be distinct in difference) should not be brought into a host country, integration is whats needed.


I know I am still amazed by some of the Irish in London, still drinking in Irish pubs and GAA clubs, still playing GAA.

OPENROAD

bonkey wrote:

There is precious little in Ireland as a "host country" that isn't an imported foreign culture. We're as Americanised as the next developed nation, and what we haven't taken from the US, we've taken from the British. Western Europe has had its own influence, but to a lesser degree.


Very good point.