20% foreign people in Ireland now - highest in Europe

barclay2

First of all, i have to point out that it is only 10% of the republic's population are foreign nationals. The CSO, who were referred to as support for the 20% figure in the original post here, counted 419733 in the country out of a population of about 4.2 million (see http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm for confirmation of this). The only 20% figure i think you might have found is that 20% of first time buyers are now foreign nationals, available here http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0820/breaking52.htm.

Secondly, Mr Nice Guy, i have to disagree with some of what you've said.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

People like the OP miss the point. This is the EU's doing and this part of the European project.

When the EU constitution - now floating around under a new name - gets ratified then we will see a new voting system called "qualified majority voting" which will determine Ireland's levels of immigration...

"a qualified majority shall be defined as at least 55% of the members of the council, comprising at least 15 of them and representing member states comprising at least 65% of the population of the Union."

France and Germany combined make up 40% and the smaller nations will do whatever the big two ask of them. That means issues like immigration, and even justice issues, will be left to the EU and not ourselves.

The Dutch, who you'll remember rejected the constitution in '05, recently were told they would NOT get another vote on future reforms - even though polls show most Dutch people to be opposed to the EU's plans. Gordon Brown in the UK is refusing to give them a vote too. Here in Ireland we might have one due to the constitutional requirement for a referendum but most parties will campaign for a Yes vote and as Nice showed in '01, if they don't get the right result the first time then they'll force a second vote.

Ireland is not a net contributor to the EU - yet - and this is why we have become the dumping ground for foreign nationals that the other nation states don't want. What does it really matter about immigration levels when our sovereignty is gradually being eroded away to make room for a federal United States of Europe?

The people of Ireland have allowed us to get into this precarious situation. This is the other side to our "economic propserity". Judas had economic prosperity too when he got his thirty pieces of silver.

While I find it all quite tragic I accepted earlier in the year that most of the Irish electorate are f*cking idiots when the utterly corrupt FF were returned to power. You reap what you sow.

Firstly, when you say people miss the point that "this is the EU's doing", what exactly do you mean? WHAT is the EU's doing? If you're referring to ireland's high rate of immigration, then i think what you've said is not fair. Our high rate of immigration is due above all else to our relative economic success compared to other developed countries, and this entirely welcome success in turn was due in no small part to Ireland's membership in the EU single market. And furthermore, the boom of recent years, particularly in construction, simply would not have been possible without immigrant workers - otherwise either enough workers would not have been available or wages would have been pushed up even higher, driving ireland's inflation and cost base even further upwards than it already is.

Secondly, Qualified Majority Voting already exists and hasnt hurt ireland's interests significantly, the new treaty will simply extend it to new policy areas.

Third, France and Germany combined make up less than a third of the EU's population, not 40%, and you dont specify why small nations would just "do what the big nations tell them to do" (especially since they'd need 13 smaller nations to form a qualified majority). Why would small nations just fall in line in a system where each state is legally equal? Nor do you specify why those big nations would necessarily agree with EACH OTHER in the first place. Right now France and Germany have huge disagreements over the future of the Euro (http://www.dailyreckoning.co.uk/article/thefrancogermaneurodebate0355.html).

Fourth, regard Nice and the fact that the parties "forced" a second vote, so the hell what? Nobody can force the country to vote differently, if we want a referendum passed or rejected then we just have to turn out and vote. Thats what happened in the second Nice referendum, turnout in the first one having been as low as around 30% or so.

Fifth and finally, i think we're hardly a "dumping ground" for people that other european nations dont want. We're (for now at least) a uniquely attractive destination for other europeans who want to work, we're an economy that has benefited from migrant workers filling job vacancies and keeping wages from spiralling even higher, and other european nations DO want these people e.g. the polish government is trying to attract emigrants to come home for economic reasons, http://www.eubusiness.com/Poland/1190222221.36

barclay2

First of all, i have to point out that it is only 10% of the republic's population are foreign nationals. The CSO, who were referred to as support for the 20% figure in the original post here, counted 419733 in the country out of a population of about 4.2 million (see http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandnationality2006.htm for confirmation of this). The only 20% figure i think you might have found is that 20% of first time buyers are now foreign nationals, available here http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0820/breaking52.htm.

Secondly, Mr Nice Guy, i have to disagree with some of what you've said.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

People like the OP miss the point. This is the EU's doing and this part of the European project.

When the EU constitution - now floating around under a new name - gets ratified then we will see a new voting system called "qualified majority voting" which will determine Ireland's levels of immigration...

"a qualified majority shall be defined as at least 55% of the members of the council, comprising at least 15 of them and representing member states comprising at least 65% of the population of the Union."

France and Germany combined make up 40% and the smaller nations will do whatever the big two ask of them. That means issues like immigration, and even justice issues, will be left to the EU and not ourselves.

The Dutch, who you'll remember rejected the constitution in '05, recently were told they would NOT get another vote on future reforms - even though polls show most Dutch people to be opposed to the EU's plans. Gordon Brown in the UK is refusing to give them a vote too. Here in Ireland we might have one due to the constitutional requirement for a referendum but most parties will campaign for a Yes vote and as Nice showed in '01, if they don't get the right result the first time then they'll force a second vote.

Ireland is not a net contributor to the EU - yet - and this is why we have become the dumping ground for foreign nationals that the other nation states don't want. What does it really matter about immigration levels when our sovereignty is gradually being eroded away to make room for a federal United States of Europe?

The people of Ireland have allowed us to get into this precarious situation. This is the other side to our "economic propserity". Judas had economic prosperity too when he got his thirty pieces of silver.

While I find it all quite tragic I accepted earlier in the year that most of the Irish electorate are f*cking idiots when the utterly corrupt FF were returned to power. You reap what you sow.

Firstly, when you say people miss the point that "this is the EU's doing", what exactly do you mean? WHAT is the EU's doing? If you're referring to ireland's high rate of immigration, then i think what you've said is not fair. Our high rate of immigration is due above all else to our relative economic success compared to other developed countries, and this entirely welcome success in turn was due in no small part to Ireland's membership in the EU single market. And furthermore, the boom of recent years, particularly in construction, simply would not have been possible without immigrant workers - otherwise either enough workers would not have been available or wages would have been pushed up even higher, driving ireland's inflation and cost base even further upwards than it already is.

Secondly, Qualified Majority Voting already exists and hasnt hurt ireland's interests significantly, the new treaty will simply extend it to new policy areas.

Third, France and Germany combined make up less than a third of the EU's population, not 40%, and you dont specify why small nations would just "do what the big nations tell them to do" (especially since they'd need 13 smaller nations to form a qualified majority)? Nor do you specify why those big nations would necessarily agree with EACH OTHER in the first place. Right now France and Germany have huge disagreements over the future of the Euro (http://www.dailyreckoning.co.uk/article/thefrancogermaneurodebate0355.html).

Fourth, regard Nice and the fact that the parties "forced" a second vote, so the hell what? Nobody can force the country to vote differently, if we want a referendum passed or rejected then we just have to turn out and vote. Thats what happened in the second Nice referendum, turnout in the first one having been as low as around 30% or so.

Fifth and finally, i think we're hardly a "dumping ground" for people that other european nations dont want. We're (for now at least) a uniquely attractive destination for other europeans who want to work, we're an economy that has benefited from migrant workers filling job vacancies and keeping wages from spiralling even higher, and other european nations DO want these people e.g. the polish government is trying to attract emigrants to come home for economic reasons, http://www.eubusiness.com/Poland/1190222221.36

eirebhoy

Is there any figures for the percentage of non-nationals living in Dublin? I'd say that's a lot closer to 20%.

gerky

I know this is off topic but just balancing the lazy dole collecting foreigner bulls**t.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/ireland/article2980507.ece

gerky

also while looking for something awhile back I came across this, again sorry for being off topic.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

mickoneill30 wrote:

Yeah trying so hard that I've posted over 600 posts to build up my reputation in preparation for this thread. That's planning for ya. Mick O'Neill is such an uncommon name in Ireland. I must be fake. Muppet. Just because I don't post something negative doesn't mean I'm foreign.

lol, you didn't maybe suspect that i was joking with my post did you? :rolleyes:

the_syco

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

While I find it all quite tragic I accepted earlier in the year that most of the Irish electorate are f*cking idiots when the utterly corrupt FF were returned to power. You reap what you sow.

You reap what you sow. FG didn't get anything, as they sowed nothing. They opposed FF, but only opposed, and didn't offer any realistic alternatives, only idealistic alternatives, which sounded great, but wouldn't get done.

A lot of people will still associate FG with unemployed 1980's Ireland, and FF with the jobs. True, there is an argument that FF were in the right place, at the right time, as the Celtic Tiger would have happened regardless, even if FG was left in power, but they weren't, and thus FF got that "bonus point" in history. This will be remembered when people go to the polls to vote.

Roundtower2 wrote:

20%? That means that 5 of the previous posters in this thread (out of 25 posters) are foreign. My money is on people like 'Mickoneill' - obviously trying too hard with the fake irish name.

mickoneill30 wrote:

Mick O'Neill is such an uncommon name in Ireland. I must be fake. Muppet.

If you can't see the sarcasm in his post, you need a drink, badly.

barclay2 wrote:

Fifth and finally, i think we're hardly a "dumping ground" for people that other european nations dont want.

Although I agree with what you say, I'd also like to say that a lot of countries (example: France) don't take in many refugee's, but somehow people get to get in here by the boatload.

In saying that, France, during the 70's, had taken in a lot of cheap foreign workers, and now, two generations on, they are living in ghetto's, and are pretty violent. I wonder how Ireland will handle the current foreigners 2nd generation, if we don't integrate them properly?

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

reminds me of the joke:

"One out of every five people in the world is Chinese. Check four of your friends - if none of them is Chinese, it is you."

or:

"Apparently one in five people in the world are Chinese. And there are five people in my family, so it must be one of them. It's either my mum or my dad. Or my older brother Colin. Or my younger brother Ho-Cha-Chu. But I think it's Colin."

mickoneill30

the_syco wrote:

If you can't see the sarcasm in his post, you need a drink, badly.
...

Although I agree with what you say, I'd also like to say that a lot of countries (example: France) don't take in many refugee's, but somehow people get to get in here by the boatload.

It's hard to tell what is sarcasm and what is typed by someone with no clue.

Ireland had 4,300 refugee applications in 2006. France had 30,690.
Page 10
http://www.unhcr.org/statistics/STATISTICS/460150272.pdf

The thread isn't just about refugees though. Not every foreign person here is a refugee.

gurramok

Funny that when people employed in lower income jobs start getting displaced, not a whisper is said.
But when its middle income jobs, you'll hear about it in the media.

Anyway, if you voted for Nice(once or twice ), you knew what was coming so you have no grounds for giving out about immigration.

OP, of that 10% foreign...the biggest group is from the UK(112,000), are they a threat?
Remember, some of them would have Irish connections, some not unlike the easten Europeans.
Also, something to think about is that the overpaid public service is something like 99% Irish(read it somewhere, don't have link), about time their jobs were outsourced!:D

mickoneill30

gurramok wrote:

Funny that when people employed in lower income jobs start getting displaced, not a whisper is said.
But when its middle income jobs, you'll hear about it in the media.

Are they getting displaced though? What's the unemployment rate in Ireland? I don't know the number but I thought it was pretty low. Could be wrong there.

Edit: Found the answer myself. 4.5% during Q2 2007 (That's all people (on the register I suppose) over 15)
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=QNBQ4&ti=ILO+participation+and+unemployment+rates+by+Age,+Sex,+Quarter+and+Statistic&path=../Database/Eirestat/Quarterly%20National%20Household%20Survey/&lang=1

North&South

Mairt wrote:

.............................................

My advice would be don't come to Ireland thinking its any better than you have it there, its not.

Mairt, I absolutely hear what you're saying there & yes, it's becoming a massive problem in both Ireland & the UK - in the south of the UK 10 years ago there was a huge influx of kosovans & they did untold damage to the south coast, in that they took on jobs & pushed the unemployment of locals to such a level that it's never recovered from. I moved just before that happened, although family there suffered adversely from the domino effect.

We're not moving to get away from this sort of thing though, thankfully!

We came over to Ireland a few weeks ago on a widespread 'interview week'. Hubby had interviews in Sligo, Galway & Cork & yep, we were greeted in hotels & shops & pubs by a lot of EU immigrants - it was interesting to see so many Polish signs up & at the same time, it was quite refreshing to see shops etc advertising for staff & specifically requesting 'English Speaking Only'...... now, wouldn't THAT be nice here!

No, we're moving for a change of life on a personal basis - the fact that hubby will get some time off for a start - & that's not a financial thing either, he works with 5 other engineers & they cover 24/7 in their factory - not much time for time at home

The only REAL argument I have with ANY migrant person/s is that they plan carefully & PAY THEIR WAY! We are going to - I wouldn't expect to do anything else, & personally I think it's downright disgusting when folks move country just because of what they can get for free......

I shall get off me box now & go have a coffee.....!

(I must say though, that looking at the info on the citizens information website - wow! The difference in benefits alone between the UK & Ireland is worth a whole new thread by itself!)

gurramok

mickoneill30 wrote:

Are they getting displaced though? What's the unemployment rate in Ireland? I don't know the number but I thought it was pretty low. Could be wrong there.

Edit: Found the answer myself. 4.5% during Q2 2007 (That's all people (on the register I suppose) over 15)
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=QNBQ4&ti=ILO+participation+and+unemployment+rates+by+Age,+Sex,+Quarter+and+Statistic&path=../Database/Eirestat/Quarterly%20National%20Household%20Survey/&lang=1

They might start getting displaced in the downturn, too many employed expensively in construction for example which has only recently started the long unwind.
I reckon we'll know more about if any displacement happens within the year and it depends on the attitude of Irish employers as well, whether they want to cut costs by hiring cheaper foreign workers or employ mostly Irish by keeping locals in a job, interesting times ahead.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

mickoneill30 wrote:

It's hard to tell what is sarcasm and what is typed by someone with no clue.

Ireland had 4,300 refugee applications in 2006. France had 30,690.
Page 10
http://www.unhcr.org/statistics/STATISTICS/460150272.pdf

The thread isn't just about refugees though. Not every foreign person here is a refugee.

While i think Ireland, given our history, should be more accepting of refugees, the figures you quote don't help matters as they can be easily contradicted. Ireland has refugees that represent 1 in 1000 people in the country, while France has refugees that represent 1 in 2000 people in their country - so France does take relatively small numbers of refugees as the previous poster to your message had said.

Fratton Fred

Directing the resentment at immigrants is letting the government off the hook. The lack of resources has been caused by this government, not a few thousand immigrants who, in the main, have every right to come and work in Ireland. Having a school where the majority of kids are Black is not over immigration, it is a criminal over dependance on the catholic church to provide education.

The government in this country takes in collossal amounts of cash from tolls, stamp duty, taxes and yet has no national health service, a poor excuse of a defense force (No offence to the members, but I don't think anyone will say that the PDF is anything other than underfunded) yet where does the money go? its only recently this country has had to pay to build it's own roads/railways and trams, the schools are paid for by the Churches and new hospitals are privately built.

There is a black hole in this country that is consuming money that should be spent on essential services and all the time people are blaming "Immigrants" it is deflecting the issue.

rant over.:rolleyes:

patrickolee

gurramok wrote:

They might start getting displaced in the downturn, too many employed expensively in construction for example which has only recently started the long unwind.
I reckon we'll know more about if any displacement happens within the year and it depends on the attitude of Irish employers as well, whether they want to cut costs by hiring cheaper foreign workers or employ mostly Irish by keeping locals in a job, interesting times ahead.

Not just the construction industry to be honest. It's starting in IT now too. Not the immigrants fault, but I can understand now why the tradesmen were so angry.

DonJose

gurramok wrote:

They might start getting displaced in the downturn, too many employed expensively in construction for example which has only recently started the long unwind.

Its not just the construction sector, the high paying jobs in manufacturing are being lost. Ireland lost its competitive years ago. Only today Tyco announced 178 job loses at Shannon. A lot of those people worked at Tyco for 20 years. Where do you see these people finding jobs.

http://rte.ie/business/2007/0927/jobs.html

DonJose

patrickolee wrote:

Not just the construction industry to be honest. It's starting in IT now too. Not the immigrants fault, but I can understand now why the tradesmen were so angry.

On the positive side, a couple of years ago it was almost impossible to get a plumber/electrician to do a small job, they would charge over €100 to install a washing machine which would take under 2 hours to fit. In a way I'm glad that theres more competition in the constrcution sector. I'm building early next year and the builder uses only guys from Chechnya. The savings are passed onto me.

DonJose

Roundtower2 wrote:

While i think Ireland, given our history, should be more accepting of refugees

I've nothing against accepting genuine refugees, I'll gladly accept Iraqi refugees over Nigerian economic migrants posing as refugees.

big b

DonJose wrote:

Only today Tyco announced 178 job loses at Shannon. A lot of those people worked at Tyco for 20 years. Where do you see these people finding jobs.

Well, it won't be commuting through Heathrow.

Another kick in the nads for the west.

Sam Vimes

daithifleming wrote:

Things will be slowing down, economically speaking, in Ireland over the next decade. With that most of the 'foreigners' will head off to wherever the money/jobs are. I dont see the big deal really.

so they'll escape like rats from a sinking ship. I don't actually have a problem with foreigners but the way you describe it it seems like they infest a country, use up all the resources and move on, much like locusts

MrJoeSoap

mickoneill30 wrote:

It's hard to tell what is sarcasm and what is typed by someone with no clue.

No it's not, his post was the clearest case of internet sarcasm I've ever seen. Or am I being sarcastic? I don't know any more!

Jesus Wept

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSD2UnNJeeQ

Ekancone

Commander Vimes wrote:

so they'll escape like rats from a sinking ship. I don't actually have a problem with foreigners but the way you describe it it seems like they infest a country, use up all the resources and move on, much like locusts

Nope, thats not what i said. Its all in your head mate.

curiousxxx1

mickoneill30 wrote:

The thread isn't just about refugees though. Not every foreign person here is a refugee.

That's true, i am foreign but i am not a refugee..... I am an international student, but often enough i am classified as an asylum seeker because i am black!!!
I totally agree that there is an influx of foreigners in Ireland but the thing is Ireland attracts big foreign companies because of the tax rate and with these multinational companies come foreigners....
'Ye can't eat the cake and have it'

Hagar

I was back to Ireland this April for the first time in over two years and I was shocked. My reaction in the Blanchardstown Centre was honestly "I can't wait to get back to France where I can understand what the people around me are saying." I am not just saying that for effect, I was genuinely taken aback.

If the report says 20% I dread to think what the real figure is. On Sky this morning there was a report that says that there are intercepting 150 illegal stowaways into Britain every night.

I wonder does Ireland have zero illegal immigration via stowaway?

Cheeky_gal

K i realsie posting this i'm probs gonna get a hammering but It's how i feel so shsh! Anyhoo to my point...I cant stand reading facts like this about Ireland...soon theres gonna be no irish...as it is theres far too many foreigners around...the government should really put a stop to it! Sure Dublins WAAAAY overcrowded...plus now this may be contraversial too but the nigerians (not all but a lot) are absolute pervs...they make my walk to college every morning pretty uncomfortable i gotta say....and thats fair enough...many of my friends feel the same...cant walk along grafton street even now with them around!

Terry

Cheeky_gal wrote:

K i realsie posting this i'm probs gonna get a hammering but It's how i feel so shsh! Anyhoo to my point...I cant stand reading facts like this about Ireland...soon theres gonna be no irish...as it is theres far too many foreigners around...the government should really put a stop to it! Sure Dublins WAAAAY overcrowded...plus now this may be contraversial too but the nigerians (not all but a lot) are absolute pervs...they make my walk to college every morning pretty uncomfortable i gotta say....and thats fair enough...many of my friends feel the same...cant walk along grafton street even now with them around!

How do you know they are Nigerian?
Is it 'cos they is black?

DonJose

Terry wrote:

How do you know they are Nigerian?
Is it 'cos they is black?

Aren't the majority of black Africans in Ireland Nigerian? I'd say at least 75% of black Africans are Nigerian. A lot of asylum seekers rip up their passports on entry to Ireland and claim to come from a different country.

LOL we had a Nigerian family live behind us once, the kids claimed they were brazilian. My wife speaks Portuguese and spoke to them to the kids in Portuguese, they hadn't a clue what she was saying.

Nigeria 16,300
South Africa 5,432
Other 13,594
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/nationalityagegroup.htm

barclay2

Maybe im the only person here who feels like this, but i PREFER ireland now that there's people from all over the world living here. I like hearing different accents and languages, seeing different skin colours, getting to know people from different backgrounds etc, and i really like knowing that was lucky enough to be born and grow up in a place that so many people want to come live in.

And aside from short-term economic benefits such as filling job vacancies and moderating upward pressure on wages, having a population that reflects more than one cultural background is a good thing in my opinion. Each culture involves a unique view of the world and unique way of thinking, and if a country can integrate various cultures successfully, then i think it'll make the whole country more thoughtful and innovative.