Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

Mellor

Builderfromhell wrote: »

PLANNING CONDITIONS
I have just completed a very large house extension to a house in Co. Clare. The water treatment unit and percolation area have just gone in and been certified by manufacturer and Site Assesor Engineer as per conditions of planning.
The planning conditions called for Water treatment unit and percolation area to be certified as correctly installed before work commences on site.
we rang planning, before work commenced, explaining that as ground levels would be changing due to excavation and spreading soil we would prefer to install WTU and get certification later.
I had written to planning a year ago seeking agreement with them for type of unit to be used but never got areply. After calling for past few weeks I finally got aletter from them saying WTU proposed was acceptable. The letter also stated in bold type that any work carried out prior to compliance with Conditions of planning would be considered unauthorised development and be dealt with accordingly ( I don't have exact wording.
My query is; Is this just a standard clause to a standard letter? The WTU and percolation area are installed and certified, so are they likely to take proceedings?
have others had similar experience, that is to say build house first and fit WTU and perco area later?
Hope someone can help. Don't want to have to apply for retention.

When you spoke to the Plananning dept about installing the WTU later, did they agree this was ok? Did you get it in writing.
As it stands the WTU is in and certified. The extension complete.
The clause is there to prevent you building the extension before the WTU, incase the WTU doesn't work at which point the project has gone too far, by insisting that the WTU is in first they can make sure the WTU is suitable, and work continues. As it is now deamed suitble, you can build.
Are they actually aware that you built it first?

Technically, thay could ask you to seek retention.
Most likely they won't imo. Although, planning depts are not always rational

muffler

Builderfromhell wrote: »

PLANNING CONDITIONS
I have just completed a very large house extension to a house in Co. Clare. The water treatment unit and percolation area have just gone in and been certified by manufacturer and Site Assesor Engineer as per conditions of planning.
The planning conditions called for Water treatment unit and percolation area to be certified as correctly installed before work commences on site.
we rang planning, before work commenced, explaining that as ground levels would be changing due to excavation and spreading soil we would prefer to install WTU and get certification later.
I had written to planning a year ago seeking agreement with them for type of unit to be used but never got areply. After calling for past few weeks I finally got aletter from them saying WTU proposed was acceptable. The letter also stated in bold type that any work carried out prior to compliance with Conditions of planning would be considered unauthorised development and be dealt with accordingly ( I don't have exact wording.
My query is; Is this just a standard clause to a standard letter? The WTU and percolation area are installed and certified, so are they likely to take proceedings?
have others had similar experience, that is to say build house first and fit WTU and perco area later?
Hope someone can help. Don't want to have to apply for retention.

Right fellow boardsies. I am quoting this post as I want to first of all bump it up the charts so as Builderfromhell may get a response to his query.

The other reason for quoting this post is to ask the users here to do the same when they are responding to a previous post. There are times when there could be 3 or 4 different topics being discussed in tandem and it gets a bit messy with one user replying to one topic and someone else replying to another. There are of course times when we are all debating the same topic which is fine.

I would ask you all to please quote the post you are replying as its a lot easier for the OP to track replies and it also helps others who are reading through posts in the hope of getting a reply themselves to a similar problem.

secman

Just a quick Question. My Brother bought a site with OPP dated 25 Feb 05. He is trying to sell a prop in UK to come home and build. Has sale agreed now, should take 6 weeks to complete. But he has not applied yet for full PP, ( I know " why did he not do so to date " its a long story ). Also the site has FPP for a bungalow, but he wishes to revert to OPP and re apply for a dormer. There are other dormers in the area, one immediately beside site.

Question is : what is his best approach at this stage, my understanding is that OPP lasts for 3 yrs and FPP extends it by a further 2 yrs ?

Advice would be appreciated.

Secman

sydthebeat

secman wrote: »

Just a quick Question. My Brother bought a site with OPP dated 25 Feb 05. He is trying to sell a prop in UK to come home and build. Has sale agreed now, should take 6 weeks to complete. But he has not applied yet for full PP, ( I know " why did he not do so to date " its a long story ). Also the site has FPP for a bungalow, but he wishes to revert to OPP and re apply for a dormer. There are other dormers in the area, one immediately beside site.

Question is : what is his best approach at this stage, my understanding is that OPP lasts for 3 yrs and FPP extends it by a further 2 yrs ?

Advice would be appreciated.

Secman

OPP lasts for 3 years, by which time you have to have been granted 'permission consequent'..(basically what was the old approval permission)
This permission consequent then lasts for 5 years from the date of grant.

If your brother wants to build a dwelling that doesnt comply with the conditions of the outline then he will have to apply for full planning permission and will be subject to all the current LA policies.. ie local needs etc.

secman

sydthebeat,

Thanks for reply, the OPP merely relates to a dwelling, does not specify type of building, however as previously stated ,a previous potential buyer sought and received FPP for a bungalow. however he wishes to apply for a dormer, but unfortunately will not be in a position to do so until he completes sale of house in uk. The dormer should comply with original OPP ( so long as it is fairly similar to neighbours), the main point i am trying to ascertain relates to the date 25/02/2008 , the end of the initial 3 year period of OPP, is it gone once past this date ? And he has to start all over again, but can he refer to previos OPP and FPP ?

Secman

muffler

secman wrote: »

Just a quick Question. My Brother bought a site with OPP dated 25 Feb 05. He is trying to sell a prop in UK to come home and build. Has sale agreed now, should take 6 weeks to complete. But he has not applied yet for full PP, ( I know " why did he not do so to date " its a long story ). Also the site has FPP for a bungalow, but he wishes to revert to OPP and re apply for a dormer. There are other dormers in the area, one immediately beside site.

Question is : what is his best approach at this stage, my understanding is that OPP lasts for 3 yrs and FPP extends it by a further 2 yrs ?

Advice would be appreciated.

Secman

Since full PP has been granted for the site he wont be able to revert back to the OPP. He will need to make an application for permission for change of house type from that previously approved.

sydthebeat

secman wrote: »

sydthebeat,

Thanks for reply, the OPP merely relates to a dwelling, does not specify type of building, however as previously stated ,a previous potential buyer sought and received FPP for a bungalow. however he wishes to apply for a dormer, but unfortunately will not be in a position to do so until he completes sale of house in uk. The dormer should comply with original OPP ( so long as it is fairly similar to neighbours), the main point i am trying to ascertain relates to the date 25/02/2008 , the end of the initial 3 year period of OPP, is it gone once past this date ? And he has to start all over again, but can he refer to previos OPP and FPP ?

Secman

if the previous buyer got 'permission consequent' on the original outline permission, then that permission is still valid on the site, and your brother can apply for permission to 'change house design'....once all conditions of 'permission consequent' are ok to comply with.
What was the date of the grant of 'permission consequent'??... the permission if valid for 5 years from that date

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

if the previous buyer got 'permission consequent' on the original outline permission, then that permission is still valid on the site, and your brother can apply for permission to 'change house design'....once all conditions of 'permission consequent' are ok to comply with.
What was the date of the grant of 'permission consequent'??... the permission if valid for 5 years from that date

Great minds think alike

Just to note and also to praise: The last few posts have been going in the right direction by quoting the post the user is replying to.

Keeps things a lot easier to track and follow.

secman

sydthebeat wrote: »

if the previous buyer got 'permission consequent' on the original outline permission, then that permission is still valid on the site, and your brother can apply for permission to 'change house design'....once all conditions of 'permission consequent' are ok to comply with.
What was the date of the grant of 'permission consequent'??... the permission if valid for 5 years from that date

Just checked it, Final notification signed off on 6/02/2006 but date of decision was 22 Dec 2005. So 5 years from which date ? Was able to print off PRACTICALY WHOLE PLANNING FILE brilliant. Basically he can piggy back on FPP even though in someone elses name and apply for change of type of dwelling and adhere to all conditions laid down.

Thanks again for sound advice

Secman

pclarkeirl

Hi,
we have been looking for planning permission for almost 4 years in Ballina/Killaloe Co. Tipperary. This is a high amenity area (HSG5) and has strict planning regulations. Local need stipulates that you must have been born in the area or lived in the area for 10 years. 8 Generations of my wife's family have lived in the area, including her father who grew up on a local farm and is buried in the local church grounds. However even with these close links we cannot get beyond 1st base with the planners. We subsequently tried putting putting the application in her aunts name but the planners would only consider a replacement house to her existing house which is in an isolated and unsuitable location. It has been a frustrating time and local polititians have done little to change the situation. I'd appreciate any advise anyone could give on this and I have a few questions that I'd like to put out there:

1. Has "local need" ever been successfully contested in court.
2. Can a local person, eldery & living on their own in an isolated location (only house at end of laneway about 1/2 mile off main road) apply to build a new house (not a replacement house) on the basis that their current house is unsuitable because of it's isolated position.
3. Can a person under 18 apply for planning permission

regards

P. Clarke

DA-LAD

Think its bad in Tipp. Your lucky your not trying for planning on the other side of the river. I know a couple on their 8th year and still no sucess..... and they were born there!!

Best of luck with it

muffler

pclarkeirl wrote: »

Hi,
we have been looking for planning permission for almost 4 years in Ballina/Killaloe Co. Tipperary. This is a high amenity area (HSG5) and has strict planning regulations. Local need stipulates that you must have been born in the area or lived in the area for 10 years. 8 Generations of my wife's family have lived in the area, including her father who grew up on a local farm and is buried in the local church grounds. However even with these close links we cannot get beyond 1st base with the planners. We subsequently tried putting putting the application in her aunts name but the planners would only consider a replacement house to her existing house which is in an isolated and unsuitable location. It has been a frustrating time and local polititians have done little to change the situation. I'd appreciate any advise anyone could give on this and I have a few questions that I'd like to put out there:

1. Has "local need" ever been successfully contested in court.
2. Can a local person, eldery & living on their own in an isolated location (only house at end of laneway about 1/2 mile off main road) apply to build a new house (not a replacement house) on the basis that their current house is unsuitable because of it's isolated position.
3. Can a person under 18 apply for planning permission

regards

P. Clarke

To answer your questions:

1. Im not aware of any legal challenge to this but please bear in mind that we dont allow discussions on legal matters on this forum.

2. Im not being flippant here but anyone can apply for permission but getting it is another issue.

3. You can apply for permission if you are under 18 but if the issue of local needs is a problem then I would imagine that there would be no point in a 16 year old trying to demonstrate a need for a house in a particular area.

From what you have posted it seems that you are having difficulty in establishing roots to the area or at least convincing the planners of this. I would suggest that you engage a planning consultant.

islanderre

Folks,

I'm in a bit of a dilemma, I secured full planning for a 190M2 Dormer back in 2004 and was getting organised to build it ASAP until my engineer brought to my attention that the house must be built parallel to the road / boreen.
Consider this, the site is on top of a hill, tha surrounding house are all facing down the hill (South facing) and their gable faces the road, I bought the site because of the view and was under the presumption that my house would have the keep in line with all the other ones in its orientation but now I have been told that it must face the road thus will be west facing and the gable will be south facing meaning the location of the conservatory will be north facing and no view from the living areas down the hill which is feck all use to me. The map that was submitted to the planning authorities with the house, garage, septic tank and porculation area marked on it had the house facing south like the others and I wrongly presumed thats how i'd build it.
I met the planner on Thursday last and he says only way around this is to reapply and hope that i'd be granted P.P. but as due to the current tightening of one off houses this is not the road i want to take. What i am considering doing is submitting a ''T'' or ''L'' shaped house plan for planning under the same conditions I was originally granted.

Anyone who has been in this situation or has ''L'' or ''T'' shaped house plans availible to view, i'd appreciate your feedback.

Moral of the story, check and double check the conditions attached to your planning.......... hindsight is always 20:20 vision!!!!!!!

muffler

islanderre wrote: »

Folks,

I'm in a bit of a dilemma, I secured full planning for a 190M2 Dormer back in 2004 and was getting organised to build it ASAP until my engineer brought to my attention that the house must be built parallel to the road / boreen.
Consider this, the site is on top of a hill, tha surrounding house are all facing down the hill (South facing) and their gable faces the road, I bought the site because of the view and was under the presumption that my house would have the keep in line with all the other ones in its orientation but now I have been told that it must face the road thus will be west facing and the gable will be south facing meaning the location of the conservatory will be north facing and no view from the living areas down the hill which is feck all use to me. The map that was submitted to the planning authorities with the house, garage, septic tank and porculation area marked on it had the house facing south like the others and I wrongly presumed thats how i'd build it.
I met the planner on Thursday last and he says only way around this is to reapply and hope that i'd be granted P.P. but as due to the current tightening of one off houses this is not the road i want to take. What i am considering doing is submitting a ''T'' or ''L'' shaped house plan for planning under the same conditions I was originally granted.

Anyone who has been in this situation or has ''L'' or ''T'' shaped house plans availible to view, i'd appreciate your feedback.

Moral of the story, check and double check the conditions attached to your planning.......... hindsight is always 20:20 vision!!!!!!!

So it has taken the guts of 4 years for you and/or your engineer to realise that your house has to be rotated on the site. Why oh why do people not take what should be no more than 5 minutes to read such an important document.

This thread is littered with people posting about the problems they are having in getting permission but when you get permission to build on a site at the top of a hill you couldn't even be bothered to check the conditions.

Quite frankly I dont see you as being in a bit of a dilemma at all but if you feel you are well its entirely of your own making.

Having said all that I doubt if you will be successful with an application for a T or L shaped house unless theres an established precedent for that type of house in the area. its something you should discuss with the local planner if you havent already done so.

In relation to plans I would feel that it would be up to you and your engineer/architect to work closely with the planning department in relation to an acceptable design.

islanderre

Muffler,

I appreciate you in taking your time to reply to my ''dilemma''.

As I said hindsight is 20:20 vision, when i recieved the P.P. 4 years ago, I was so happy with actually recieving it that the condition of having the house parallel to to road did not hit me like it should of and as all other houses in the area are facing south / downhill I incorrectly presumed that mine too would have to face in this direction to keep all the houses facing the same direction.

I only employed an engineer in the 2nd week of January this year as I got mortgage approval and it was he who pointed this out but was of the opinion that their may of been a mistake as it did not makle sence to him that my house should be 90 degrees out of phase witht he others on the hill hense a meeting with the planner was arranged to get this clarified among other not so serious issues things.

Anyway sin mo sceal and reason i posted is to find out if amy others had suffered the same fate and to warn others to check and double check their conditions.

muffler

islanderre wrote: »

Muffler,

I appreciate you in taking your time to reply to my ''dilemma''.

As I said hindsight is 20:20 vision, when i recieved the P.P. 4 years ago, I was so happy with actually recieving it that the condition of having the house parallel to to road did not hit me like it should of and as all other houses in the area are facing south / downhill I incorrectly presumed that mine too would have to face in this direction to keep all the houses facing the same direction.

I only employed an engineer in the 2nd week of January this year as I got mortgage approval and it was he who pointed this out but was of the opinion that their may of been a mistake as it did not makle sence to him that my house should be 90 degrees out of phase witht he others on the hill hense a meeting with the planner was arranged to get this clarified among other not so serious issues things.

Anyway sin mo sceal and reason i posted is to find out if amy others had suffered the same fate and to warn others to check and double check their conditions.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there just like yourself - they see "permission granted" and thats it. I'm not being critical here nor was I being critical with my last post as you have admitted yourself that you should have read the conditions and that you are now advising others to make sure that they also read their conditions. I'm just amazed at the number of people that don't seem to understand the importance of planning conditions.

ArraMusha

Hi, I am looking into the possibility of buying a site and as you know they all seem to have an add-on stating "suit locals who can prove a housing need". OK, so I read the county development plan (Galway) and cannot satisfy any of the criteria listed. I'm not from the area and am not working in the area but working in the city. I am from a farming background in a different area of the county (too far for commute) and want to live in a rural area, I hate this townie life!!

From reading through this forum I can see that it is sometimes possible to get the impossible. Getting to the point, the 2 questions I have is "how much lies can you get away with with a planning application" and "what, if any are the implications"

For information the Galway development plan has the usual obstacles
"long standing existing close family ties" to the area.
"no family lands, but who wish to build their first home within a community in which they have long standing links"
"functionally dependent on a part time or full time basis on the immediate rural area in which they are seeking to develop"
"moved abroad, and now wish to return and build their first home, in this local area, to reside near other family members"
"exceptional health circumstances"


In order to have the life I want i.e. rural house 20-30mins from Galway City. Will I have be to start living in a caravan in the area, and then get some shopkeeper or local builder to say that I'm working for him for the past 10 years, slip him €50 and a dozen duck eggs. Or, retire and take up farming in the area, maybe tillage or daggin ewes. Or, get a good forger to get me some documents stating that I am a returning immigrant from Yankee-land, and docs to proove that all my family are from this area also!

The sooner the EU review all local authority development plans and these restrictions and realise that human rights are being violated the better.

Mellor

We will not be suggesting how to lie on a PP application.

sydthebeat

ArraMusha wrote: »

Hi, I am looking into the possibility of buying a site and as you know they all seem to have an add-on stating "suit locals who can prove a housing need". OK, so I read the county development plan (Galway) and cannot satisfy any of the criteria listed. I'm not from the area and am not working in the area but working in the city. I am from a farming background in a different area of the county (too far for commute) and want to live in a rural area, I hate this townie life!!

From reading through this forum I can see that it is sometimes possible to get the impossible. Getting to the point, the 2 questions I have is "how much lies can you get away with with a planning application" and "what, if any are the implications"

For information the Galway development plan has the usual obstacles
"long standing existing close family ties" to the area.
"no family lands, but who wish to build their first home within a community in which they have long standing links"
"functionally dependent on a part time or full time basis on the immediate rural area in which they are seeking to develop"
"moved abroad, and now wish to return and build their first home, in this local area, to reside near other family members"
"exceptional health circumstances"


In order to have the life I want i.e. rural house 20-30mins from Galway City. Will I have be to start living in a caravan in the area, and then get some shopkeeper or local builder to say that I'm working for him for the past 10 years, slip him €50 and a dozen duck eggs. Or, retire and take up farming in the area, maybe tillage or daggin ewes. Or, get a good forger to get me some documents stating that I am a returning immigrant from Yankee-land, and docs to proove that all my family are from this area also!

The sooner the EU review all local authority development plans and these restrictions and realise that human rights are being violated the better.

Human rights are being violated in Darfur, in Burma, in Kenya, etc etc....

You not being allowed to build your Dallas mansion is not an affront to human rights. To suggest so is an affront to common sense. Rural housing is a finite resource so, correctly, its planning policy to restrict rural housing to those persons who have a genuine reason to live in the country.... and "In order to have the life I want" is most definitely not a genuine reason.......

If you are from a farming background in a different area of the county, go there and apply. You would have much more 'geniune' reasons.... ie long term affiliation to the area etc.

bauderline

ArraMusha,

You will likely have to look long and hard for a site you have a couple of options.

1. Buy a site with planning permission that has no local needs conditions attached to it. This will cost you.

2. Buy an existing dwelling that you can either get replacement permission for and knock down or a dwelling such as an old farmhouse that you can renovate.

No point in trying to fib the planners, it won't work, they check it out. Living in a caravan won't help either !

b.

ArraMusha

sydthebeat wrote: »

Human rights are being violated in Darfur, in Burma, in Kenya, etc etc....

You not being allowed to build your Dallas mansion is not an affront to human rights. To suggest so is an affront to common sense. Rural housing is a finite resource so, correctly, its planning policy to restrict rural housing to those persons who have a genuine reason to live in the country.... and "In order to have the life I want" is most definitely not a genuine reason.......

If you are from a farming background in a different area of the county, go there and apply. You would have much more 'geniune' reasons.... ie long term affiliation to the area etc.

Rural housing is a limited resource indeed but its OK for someone to buy a home and live in any area but planning permission (affordable option) is not allowed, thats not Genuine.
The option of building on our home farm isn't practical unfortunately and a southfork was not what I intend building. Was the eura lotto won last Friday?

sydthebeat

ArraMusha wrote: »

Rural housing is a limited resource indeed but its OK for someone to buy a home and live in any area but planning permission (affordable option) is not allowed, thats not Genuine.
The option of building on our home farm isn't practical unfortunately and a southfork was not what I intend building. Was the eura lotto won last Friday?

yes, of course it is......

If its in a town then it can be serviced efficiently.
If its a rural dwelling that has been bought then its fine as well, as it is existing housing stock and not new.

You dont have to build on the family farm if its not practical, you can purchase a site in the neighbouring areas that is suitable.

ArraMusha

ArraMusha wrote: »

Hi, I am looking into the possibility of buying a site and as you know they all seem to have an add-on stating "suit locals who can prove a housing need". OK, so I read the county development plan (Galway) and cannot satisfy any of the criteria listed.

Look at "plan B"

With the current housing situation, are there not any decent houses in the area for sale! if you're a cash buyer you could get one at a knock down price.

Dabko

hello all,

Im moving my business into a business park shortly. I will need to put a sign up over the door to the unit. Nothing major, probably 15ft x 3ft. It will be ran flat with the building.

Do i need to apply for planning permission for this?

Cheeers

muffler

Dabko wrote: »

hello all,

Im moving my business into a business park shortly. I will need to put a sign up over the door to the unit. Nothing major, probably 15ft x 3ft. It will be ran flat with the building.

Do i need to apply for planning permission for this?

Cheeers

Yes you will need permission for that size. But you can get close to that without having to apply for permission.

Read this leaflet

archtech

Dabko wrote: »

hello all,

Im moving my business into a business park shortly. I will need to put a sign up over the door to the unit. Nothing major, probably 15ft x 3ft. It will be ran flat with the building.

Do i need to apply for planning permission for this?

Cheeers

If its a new ( or relatively new) business park, it might not be any harm to check with the developers to seeing if signage was included in the planning application. We normally include it, when making submissions of behalf of developers and there is usually a condition attached to the planning permission stating that the details of any sign are to be submitted to the planning authority for approval as part of the conditions of the planning permission.

The_Bullman

Hello all.

I have outline permission for a dwelling house and associated site works. And at the moment I'm in deep discussions with herself as to design of the house.

I'll be self-building and I'd like to get cracking on the garage this summer when the weather suits.

Is it possible to apply for permission for the garage seperately from the house? Or would they have to be applied for together?

When I'm askin about garages - Is there a consensus to how the planners think about 2 story garages? I was hopin to have a decent sized one for storage, etc - and to setup a gym upstairs. Would I have any hope for that?

smashey

The Bullman wrote:

Hello all.

I have outline permission for a dwelling house and associated site works. And at the moment I'm in deep discussions with herself as to design of the house.

I'll be self-building and I'd like to get cracking on the garage this summer when the weather suits.

Is it possible to apply for permission for the garage seperately from the house? Or would they have to be applied for together?

When I'm askin about garages - Is there a consensus to how the planners think about 2 story garages? I was hopin to have a decent sized one for storage, etc - and to setup a gym upstairs. Would I have any hope for that?

Why not apply for the garage now and save the need for a second application later?

Spaeak to your Architect/Technician about the size of it.

DSN

i can empathise with above poster balina/killaloe. we are other side of the river & have similar nightmare. we have been identified as having a 'local need' (we are looking to build on parents land I was brought up in the village etc etc) the only reason for last refusal was 'visiblity' to the lake. even though our architect put up profiles & photos proved that you would not be able to see the house from the lake & although you get a peep view of the lake from the top of the site our house is positioned at bottom of the side & is just a 4 bed bungalow is no mansion or anything. we had a meeting with the planner with our architech & councilor & she said she would meet the architect out there & see it from his viewpoint & to show her that that site is the most sheltered. did she heck. she just wouldnt return his calls the week before they refused again. Its so frustrating now our acrhitect is advising us to appeal as he cant see there is a visibility issue. what are the sucess rates of appeals & are an bord p. likely to overturn a decision of local planner? we also gave her maps of parents land & asked her where else we should build then cos in our architects opinion we picked the most sheltered site we could! but we got no response on that one. any advice?

sydthebeat

The_Bullman wrote: »

Hello all.

I have outline permission for a dwelling house and associated site works. And at the moment I'm in deep discussions with herself as to design of the house.

I'll be self-building and I'd like to get cracking on the garage this summer when the weather suits.

Is it possible to apply for permission for the garage seperately from the house? Or would they have to be applied for together?

When I'm askin about garages - Is there a consensus to how the planners think about 2 story garages? I was hopin to have a decent sized one for storage, etc - and to setup a gym upstairs. Would I have any hope for that?

You cannot apply for a garage as part of the 'permission consequent' unless a garage was granted at outline stage...... but you may well be able to apply for full permission as a 'piggy back' application on the 'permission consequent'.
as archtech says contact your professional, but make sure they get the wording correct.