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Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,152 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    DSN wrote: »
    i can empathise with above poster balina/killaloe. we are other side of the river & have similar nightmare. we have been identified as having a 'local need' (we are looking to build on parents land I was brought up in the village etc etc) the only reason for last refusal was 'visiblity' to the lake. even though our architect put up profiles & photos proved that you would not be able to see the house from the lake & although you get a peep view of the lake from the top of the site our house is positioned at bottom of the side & is just a 4 bed bungalow is no mansion or anything. we had a meeting with the planner with our architech & councilor & she said she would meet the architect out there & see it from his viewpoint & to show her that that site is the most sheltered. did she heck. she just wouldnt return his calls the week before they refused again. Its so frustrating now our acrhitect is advising us to appeal as he cant see there is a visibility issue. what are the sucess rates of appeals & are an bord p. likely to overturn a decision of local planner? we also gave her maps of parents land & asked her where else we should build then cos in our architects opinion we picked the most sheltered site we could! but we got no response on that one. any advice?

    I wouldnt advise the bord option just yet.... appeals are taking about 20-24 weeks currently..... you could have 3 different application through in that time...


    contact your local councilor....... get him/her to arrange a meeting with the planner, which he / she will attend. (but remember this meeting cannot be within 4 weeks of the date of the refusal decision)....

    People dont realise that the 'bord of councilors' is the planners 'boss'. Planners are answerable to this bord, so when a bord member asks for meeting etc, they generally agree. Talk to the planner and try to get out of them exactly what the issue is, and reapply with the issues resolved.


  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭DSN


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I wouldnt advise the bord option just yet.... appeals are taking about 20-24 weeks currently..... you could have 3 different application through in that time...


    contact your local councilor....... get him/her to arrange a meeting with the planner, which he / she will attend. (but remember this meeting cannot be within 4 weeks of the date of the refusal decision)....

    People dont realise that the 'bord of councilors' is the planners 'boss'. Planners are answerable to this bord, so when a bord member asks for meeting etc, they generally agree. Talk to the planner and try to get out of them exactly what the issue is, and reapply with the issues resolved.

    thanks but we already met the planners with our councillor & arch. in the meeting planner was nice as pie said she had issue with visibility but she was willing to see it from our point of view by meeting architech out there to view it from the lake & to view it from where the house would actually be on the site & looking at alternative sites with him to see if she thought there was a better one or if we could make any further changes to house etc but she never called the architect as promised. when councillor asked her yesterday did she see any alternative site possibilities she said 'thats not my job' totally contradictory to what she said to us in the meeting. so whats the point in meeting again? even he councillor is telling us now to appeal so cant see what power he has?.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Yup I've lived in Killaloe all my life and am now trying to buy a site. I love the way 10 years ago they let every tom, dick and harry build a house and now the result is local people cannot get a site. it is infuriating to say the least

    It has driven me to depression at this stage.

    My only option now is to open the map look at areas where I do qualify and go around knocking on farmers doors asking to sell me a site. :(

    Does anyone know can you just ring the planning offices and ask for clarification on a matter? Killaloe and Ballina are linked by a bridge. I want to know will people from Killaloe be considered locals if they apply for permission in Ballina.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Vegeta wrote: »
    Does anyone know can you just ring the planning offices and ask for clarification on a matter? Killaloe and Ballina are linked by a bridge. I want to know will people from Killaloe be considered locals if they apply for permission in Ballina.
    You can indeed give them a call. Its better though if you ask to get speaking to the planner who covers that area as quite often you may only get a reply from one of the admin staff and I have found that they are not up to speed on these issues.

    Edit: Look for details of this in their county development plan. Most councils now have the plan available online.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    muffler wrote: »
    You can indeed give them a call. Its better though if you ask to get speaking to the planner who covers that area as quite often you may only get a reply from one of the admin staff and I have found that they are not up to speed on these issues.

    Edit: Look for details of this in their county development plan. Most councils now have the plan available online.

    well they have a Ballina/Killaloe settlement plan on the site where they refer to a "native resident" on page 8 of 12 as "a person who was either born or reared in the town or resided for at least 10 consecutive years prior in the town or within the rural hiunterland of Ballina/Killaloe"

    so according to this I would be considered a local but I want to be sure as this is not in the county development plan but a settlement plan

    EDIT: How many pre planning meetings can you have.

    The reason I ask is I'd like to ask questions first before I ever design the house so wouldn't mind being able to go to 2, one early fact finding one and a second one just prior to applying for full planning. In fact I'd take any house style they'd allow on the site I am looking at.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭archtech


    Vegeta wrote: »

    EDIT: How many pre planning meetings can you have..

    There's no maximum number of pre planning meetings one could have, with regard to a specific site or development.(house in this case) What you might find frustrating is if all the pre-planning meetings are with different planners and they all want totally different proposals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    archtech wrote: »
    There's no maximum number of pre planning meetings one could have, with regard to a specific site or development.(house in this case) What you might find frustrating is if all the pre-planning meetings are with different planners and they all want totally different proposals.

    will the decisions made by one set of planners stand up in front of another set of planners.

    So say in pre planning meeting 1, the planners consider me a local resident

    If I have a second pre planning meeting can these new planners then turn around and say "no, you are not local"


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭archtech


    Vegeta wrote: »
    will the decisions made by one set of planners stand up in front of another set of planners.

    So say in pre planning meeting 1, the planners consider me a local resident

    If I have a second pre planning meeting can these new planners then turn around and say "no, you are not local"

    Whether you qualify as a local resident should be pretty clear cut, once you can demonstrate that you qualify, with the required documentation, evidence of address etc. That's generally black and white. Opinions expressed by different planners on house design etc very often carry little weight with another planner, that's where pre-planning meetings can become frustrating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    archtech wrote: »
    Whether you qualify as a local resident should be pretty clear cut, once you can demonstrate that you qualify, with the required documentation, evidence of address etc. That's generally black and white. Opinions expressed by different planners on house design etc very often carry little weight with another planner, that's where pre-planning meetings can become frustrating.

    well you see my status as a local resident is not so clear cut. Settlement plan defines a "native resident" as someone living in Ballina/Killaloe yada yada yada but there is no mention of this in the CDP

    I rang the planning office this morning and they are to ring me back on the issue.

    Fingers crossed I suppose. Regardless the site is still in a high amenity area so not too hopeful anyway


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭snellers


    Hi folks, I have a pre-planning meeting shortly in Wexford (with my architect) and looking for a little advice.

    what I want to know is if the planner doesnt actually discount your new build proposal does this mean if you fulfill the criteria to be able to build (i.e. local need/percolation/sight lines..etc...etc) then the issue at planning application isnt whether you can build but what you can build? (my understanding is that the planner wont say yes or no outright at pre planning but you should be able to find out whether they have a problem with the proposal?)

    I know there are no guarantees at all with these planners after reading the forums however just want to get a better idea of what I can expect to gain from this meet (other than being able to put 'pre planning meeting taken place' on the planning app which I believe is looked upon positively)

    Thanks in advance for any info!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,676 ✭✭✭✭smashey


    snellers wrote: »
    Hi folks, I have a pre-planning meeting shortly in Wexford (with my architect) and looking for a little advice.

    what I want to know is if the planner doesnt actually discount your new build proposal does this mean if you fulfill the criteria to be able to build (i.e. local need/percolation/sight lines..etc...etc) then the issue at planning application isnt whether you can build but what you can build? (my understanding is that the planner wont say yes or no outright at pre planning but you should be able to find out whether they have a problem with the proposal?)

    I know there are no guarantees at all with these planners after reading the forums however just want to get a better idea of what I can expect to gain from this meet (other than being able to put 'pre planning meeting taken place' on the planning app which I believe is looked upon positively)

    Thanks in advance for any info!
    As you said, there are no guarantees. Basically, they are pointing you in the right direction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37 bobbytwo


    I applied for commercial planning permission for a small timber cattery six weeks ago and just got a letter saying I need to apply for a fire safety cert. i am under huge pressure to open for the summer and have heard I will hear nothing for another eight weeks at least (I havent received the forms yet!).
    Couple of questions:
    Does this mean that I have a good chance of getting planning...seems alot to ask if they just want to say no!
    Do I need an architect or engineer to fill in these forms? I did the originally PP myself?
    Does it really take eight weeks?

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    bobbytwo wrote: »
    I applied for commercial planning permission for a small timber cattery six weeks ago and just got a letter saying I need to apply for a fire safety cert. i am under huge pressure to open for the summer and have heard I will hear nothing for another eight weeks at least (I havent received the forms yet!).
    I take it the forms that you are referring to as in "have not received them" are in relation to making an application for a fire safety cert. If that is the case then you will need to engage someone who is capable of doing this work for you unless you are fully conversant with Part B of the Building Regs yourself. The Council wont post any forms to you unless you request them. I have to say its strange that you are being asked to apply for the fire cert now prior to planning being granted but then again different local authorities work in different ways.

    bobbytwo wrote: »
    Does this mean that I have a good chance of getting planning...seems alot to ask if they just want to say no!
    Absolutely no guarantee at all. Expect the unexpected when applying for planning permission.

    bobbytwo wrote: »
    Do I need an architect or engineer to fill in these forms? I did the originally PP myself?
    Yes you will need a qualified person - see my comment above.

    bobbytwo wrote: »
    Does it really take eight weeks?
    When you submit the details the planners are looking for they have a max. 4 weeks from that date to make a decision unless they decide that you didnt submit all the info they asked for. If you need a fire cert at this stage then by the time you get that and get a response from the planners it could well be 8 weeks or more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,467 ✭✭✭Ginger83


    Vegeta wrote: »
    Yup I've lived in Killaloe all my life and am now trying to buy a site. I love the way 10 years ago they let every tom, dick and harry build a house and now the result is local people cannot get a site. it is infuriating to say the least

    It has driven me to depression at this stage.

    My only option now is to open the map look at areas where I do qualify and go around knocking on farmers doors asking to sell me a site. :(

    Does anyone know can you just ring the planning offices and ask for clarification on a matter? Killaloe and Ballina are linked by a bridge. I want to know will people from Killaloe be considered locals if they apply for permission in Ballina.

    I have to state planning in this country is the most laughable thing I have ever gone through in my life. 'Local needs my huha'

    I spent 2.5yrs trying to get planning permission to build outside kells on a cul-de-sac. I went through it all,td's, pre-planning meetings, the lot. We changed plans and drawings more times. I was told the cul-de-sac was too dangerous for traffic and was only suitable for tractors even though the county council tared it every 3 years.
    I aquired original maps from 60-70yrs ago to prove my partners family home was the very first dwelling on the roadway, built by her grandfathers bare hands and stated she was third family generation living there for local needs. Still no use.
    They stated our plans and maps were not up to standard (little did they know one of their own architects drew them up for me as a long time family friendly favour) Still no use.
    2.5 long years wading through paperwork I might as well have never bother and what did they do then. The great planners granted full permission to 2 blown-ins, a dub and a cavan woman to build a f-ing mansion.What a disgrace.
    I gave my plans to my brother, he had them changed into his name and went for planning 'as a blown-in''on a site that had 4 LOCALS REFUSED' and he was granted first go. 8 weeks bobs your uncle thanks very much.
    The odds are better for winning the euro-millions.

    PS-Sorry for the rant but what a bunch of *******


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Ginger83 wrote: »
    I have to state planning in this country is the most laughable thing I have ever gone through in my life. 'Local needs my huha'

    I spent 2.5yrs trying to get planning permission to build outside kells on a cul-de-sac. I went through it all,td's, pre-planning meetings, the lot. We changed plans and drawings more times. I was told the cul-de-sac was too dangerous for traffic and was only suitable for tractors even though the county council tared it every 3 years.
    I aquired original maps from 60-70yrs ago to prove my partners family home was the very first dwelling on the roadway, built by her grandfathers bare hands and stated she was third family generation living there for local needs. Still no use.
    They stated our plans and maps were not up to standard (little did they know one of their own architects drew them up for me as a long time family friendly favour) Still no use.
    2.5 long years wading through paperwork I might as well have never bother and what did they do then. The great planners granted full permission to 2 blown-ins, a dub and a cavan woman to build a f-ing mansion.What a disgrace.
    I gave my plans to my brother, he had them changed into his name and went for planning 'as a blown-in''on a site that had 4 LOCALS REFUSED' and he was granted first go. 8 weeks bobs your uncle thanks very much.
    The odds are better for winning the euro-millions.

    PS-Sorry for the rant but what a bunch of *******
    Sadly your story is typical of what happens quite often around the country when common sense appears to be have gone out of the window.

    A bit late in the day now but for anyone else who finds themselves in a similar position you should first of all identify the problems one by one and endevour to alleviate them by consultation with the planners.

    If your car failed the NCT you have a list of problems you need to sort out. More often than not if you work your way through the list you will pass the next time round. Same rule generally for planning although there are some problems that God almighty still couldnt overcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭snellers


    Hopefully I am posting in the correct place....planning issue I guess!

    We have land in a field and have had pre planning meet...all good so far and fairly positive planner. Our planning app will go through in the next couple of months once design approved...etc)
    My issue surrounds another house in the field that has a rather large storage shed. I say storage shed as I checked the planning application online and the owners stated it was to store posessions including a couple of vintage cars, a boat and various other bits hence how they could justify its size. Planning was granted with an absolute condition it would be for domestic use only. Today I have driven past the house to see a local estate agent sign advertising commercial offices and workshop for rent/sale.

    Question is do I just contact the planning office to report them on the phone or is there a formal way i have to proceed to ensure my concerns are dealt with properly. Secondly is there a way this can be done anonymously as I obviously dont want to upset the neighbours before we even live there if I can help it!

    any advice appreciated!


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    snellers wrote: »
    Hopefully I am posting in the correct place....planning issue I guess!

    We have land in a field and have had pre planning meet...all good so far and fairly positive planner. Our planning app will go through in the next couple of months once design approved...etc)
    My issue surrounds another house in the field that has a rather large storage shed. I say storage shed as I checked the planning application online and the owners stated it was to store posessions including a couple of vintage cars, a boat and various other bits hence how they could justify its size. Planning was granted with an absolute condition it would be for domestic use only. Today I have driven past the house to see a local estate agent sign advertising commercial offices and workshop for rent/sale.

    Question is do I just contact the planning office to report them on the phone or is there a formal way i have to proceed to ensure my concerns are dealt with properly. Secondly is there a way this can be done anonymously as I obviously dont want to upset the neighbours before we even live there if I can help it!

    any advice appreciated!
    You will probably need to complete an unauthorised development complaint form like this one or alternatively a signed letter may suffice. Give your local planning office a quick call and they will advise accordingly.


    Edit: It is confidential or least supposed to be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 willywilliams


    How long does it take for the Planner to make a decision after you have submitted the FI? Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    4 weeks max. Providing of course that you have submitted the requested information in full.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 willywilliams


    Thanks, I was afraid the time started over.
    Do you ever sleep?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,676 ✭✭✭✭smashey


    Thanks, I was afraid the time started over.
    Do you ever sleep?
    mufflerbot v.4.0


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    smashey wrote: »
    mufflerbot v.4.0
    Sweet mother of Jesus, look at the avatar you have now. Not hard to know there's a full moon about :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    To cut a long story short, my parents are looking for PP on amenity land - their own privately owned land within a town boundary. They want PP for one house for themselves - they already live in the town beside the site but the house is no longer suitable, better to re-build and sell the current house.

    Anyway, their land was zoned amenity in the last plan as it once had trees on it (they're long gone now). At the time of the zoning they didn't make any representation to the Co. Co. The land also had previously been given PP for 5 houses but these had expired by the time of the re-zoning.

    What options are available to get PP for one house on this site (it's about 6 acres). Can they challenge the zoning? Can a Co. Co zone private land as amenity when its not part of a larger development? Without explicitly informing the owners or are they supposed to respond as part of the general public consultation?

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,676 ✭✭✭✭smashey


    Patrickof wrote: »
    To cut a long story short, my parents are looking for PP on amenity land - their own privately owned land within a town boundary. They want PP for one house for themselves - they already live in the town beside the site but the house is no longer suitable, better to re-build and sell the current house.

    Anyway, their land was zoned amenity in the last plan as it once had trees on it (they're long gone now). At the time of the zoning they didn't make any representation to the Co. Co. The land also had previously been given PP for 5 houses but these had expired by the time of the re-zoning.

    What options are available to get PP for one house on this site (it's about 6 acres). Can they challenge the zoning? Can a Co. Co zone private land as amenity when its not part of a larger development? Without explicitly informing the owners or are they supposed to respond as part of the general public consultation?

    Thanks
    They should have made a submission as part of the public consultation while the development plan was at the draft stage.

    You should get a meeting with the planner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    smashey wrote: »
    They should have made a submission as part of the public consultation while the development plan was at the draft stage.

    You should get a meeting with the planner.

    They have, the Co Co informed them that if they "gave" the Co a strip of land within the site (to access a river at the back) then their application would be considered. The river is not in any way accessible to the public, nor has any work ever been done to the river bank to make it a public amenity.

    Are the Co Co allowed to make such demands in return for PP? (seems to me that they are a law unto themselves). Surely if the Co Co deem a piece of land as an "amenity" they should then be obliged to do something about it - ie make it a park or something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,676 ✭✭✭✭smashey


    Patrickof wrote: »
    They have, the Co Co informed them that if they "gave" the Co a strip of land within the site (to access a river at the back) then their application would be considered. The river is not in any way accessible to the public, nor has any work ever been done to the river bank to make it a public amenity.

    Are the Co Co allowed to make such demands in return for PP? (seems to me that they are a law unto themselves). Surely if the Co Co deem a piece of land as an "amenity" they should then be obliged to do something about it - ie make it a park or something.
    That seems normal enough as they are loooking to use the river as part of the amenity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭Patrickof


    smashey wrote: »
    That seems normal enough as they are loooking to use the river as part of the amenity.

    Probably, it just seems manipulative. Rather than deciding on making something an amenity then going ahead and CPO'ing land they zone it as amenity then make the landowner "donate" the land. It'd be different if this was being looked for as a development site and the "donation" was offset against contributions. But as this is a one off house in the town it just seems rather unfair. This is the only private land zoned as amenity. So effectively it's a fine on owners of amenity land.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Schooby


    as any proposal would materially contravene an objective of the relavent plan ie the zoning, in order to grant any such permission the application would have to go through material contravention proceedures, a reason has to be given as to why the council would consider a material contavention the provision of access to the river seems like a good one.

    the council do not need consent to zone any land, the counter agument would be that there had been significant pubilc consultation

    the basic right to the ownership of the land is conveyed under article 43 of the constitution, have a look at it it is interesting particulary sub section 2 which is the limitaiton on that right with regard to social justice, ie provision of amenities for communities.

    sorry for the waffle but I have encountered a very similar case in the past and it cuts to the chase of the point of planning and impacts on teh few and the many bla bla


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,873 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Schooby wrote: »
    the council do not need consent to zone any land
    And you do of course mean the elected members of the Council.


    Schooby wrote: »
    the basic right to the ownership of the land is conveyed under article 43 of the constitution, have a look at it it is interesting particulary sub section 2
    Have a look at it it? Link please.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭Schooby


    yep councillors make the decisions wiyh regard to policy including zoning, its a reserved function, the councillors in law are the planning authority

    apologies Link as follows

    http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20IrelandNov2004.pdf


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