N20 thread

Sponge Bob

You mean the commitment to fund €500m worth of Motorway to Donegal ( only within the north mind not in Monaghan or Donegal ) and Motorway from Belfast to Larne .

invincibleirish wrote: »

It makes no sense for the N20 & N18 to not be built/delayed or built in a piecemeal fashion when there are plans for the ROI to fund roads & Airports in the north. Why should this state pay for infrastructure in an area which is part of a G8 economy.

Motorway to Donegal through Derry-Fermanagh & Tyrone? or Motorway linking 3 of the states 5 cities?

No brainer really.

I agree overall but as we have solemnly agreed to pay over the €500m we cannot withdraw that now.

When you look at the works underway on the M6 / M7 / M8 / M9 / M10 N11 and M50 at the moment , and adding that commitment to the North , we are already committed to spending €2.5bn on new road projects over the next 2 years ( with the €500m in 2011 and/or 2012 rather than 2010).

This level of already committed expenditure averages out at €800m a year for the period 2009 - 2011 EVEN IF WE START NO NEW PROJECTS such as the Dublin Outer Orbital and the N18 and N20 .

Rail projects are , of course, extra . Victor made a very good point about PPPs , the Metro North bids will be the first lot since the Credit Crunch and euribor at a near 5% sustained .

If I were the NPRF with €5bn I would seek and I would be legally obliged to seek , to invest where the greatest return may be made which is not on the Atlantic Corridor .

I feel that the ( my best guess) €5bn that will become available over the next 2 years from the NPRF will go to the Rail Interconnector and the M9 northward extension from Naas to Drogheda via Navan and thats the NPRF cleaned out for PPPs based on asset allocation . They will not invest above 25% of the fund in Transport PPPs .

murphaph

Sponge Bob wrote: »

as we have solemnly agreed to pay over the €500m we cannot withdraw that now.

I disagree. We shouldn't have promised such massive funding in the first place and given the changing climate, we should simply tell the northern authorities we're too poor to be building their roads for them.

Donegal is in the RoI but Cork/Limerick/Galway should be linked by a decent road before any such road is built to serve the extremely sparsely populated Donegal.

Sponge Bob

murphaph wrote: »

I disagree. We shouldn't have promised such massive funding in the first place

I totally agree but the offer was made in different times before the housing bubble exploded and the credit crunch rolled into town . Having said that its also fair to say that the public sector was expanded during those times to a completely unsustainable size .

and given the changing climate, we should simply tell the northern authorities we're too poor to be building their roads for them.

That would imply that we are a bunch of completely clueless eejits when it comes to running an economy, unlike the Northerners ....emmm ooops maybe we should not admit that in the current climate

Donegal is in the RoI but Cork/Limerick/Galway should be linked by a decent road before any such road is built to serve the extremely sparsely populated Donegal.

In terms of priorities you are of course correct . I would say its a done deal now . Our best chance of weaseling out of it is that the British government is equally skint nowadays for the same reasons as ours and may not pony up their end of the funding so we need not provide our funding until they do .

Fortunately we are only paying for part of the projects , not all of them.

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a8colemanstolarne.html

http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/a5omaghstrabane.html

(from the latter)

Approx £560m (incl. approx £340m Irish government contrbution)


To upgrade the entire A5 to dual-carriageway from the Irish border near Aughnacloy, via Omagh and Strabane, to Derry.


Construction expected to begin by 2013.

and we probably will not have to cough until 2013 rather than 2011, my mistake .

E92

I agree with all those who say we shouldn't be wasting taxpayer's money on building roads in a part of the island that doesn't contribute anything towards enriching this Government's coffers.

Before we can look after anyone else we should look after ourselves.

Especially in these tougher economic times, it would be a very pain free and quick way of reducing the Government's expenditure.

Or if the Government is intent on spending the €600 million or whatever it is then they should spend it on some road project, like the Cork-Limerick Motorway, or improving the Limerick - Waterford road, or Midelton - Waterford or whatever, anything that would improve the quality of life for people who contribute towards the taxes of the Republic.

Even spend it on public transport, on having more frequent bus services and bigger buses in the case of Cork.

Considering that they were supposed to have a LOAD of new bus services introduced early this year in Cork, I am only aware of the number 10A being introduced, and let's face that really is a token gesture, a bus every 50 minutes on Monday - Friday ONLY, yeah like that'll get people out of their cars and onto public transport:rolleyes:, and we're well into August at this stage.

Speaking of Cork I don't see any of the double decker buses around the place either like we were promised(other than those on the Park and Ride thing which have been there for a while at this stage).

corktina

QUOTE

Before we can look after anyone else we should look after ourselves.

UNQUOTE

good idea...lets give back all the roads and everything else that the rest of Europe and esopecially the Uk paid for....:rolleyes:

Bards

From http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/news_detail.asp?nid=3396



No justifcation for M20 - An Taisce

An Taisce has claimed there "is no justification" for the construction of the new M20.

The heritage body believes the proposed new one billion euros superhighway between Cork and Limerick is not sustainable, in terms of likely daily traffic use.

A spokesman for An Taisce said the existing N20 has already been significantly upgraded to cope with the volume of traffic.

"This is coming at time when we are supposed to be cutting carbon emissions," declared An Taisce’s Ian Lumley.

"Road building will be the white elephant in the room in years to come. The National Roads Authority is there to build roads, so policymakers continue to build them even if they are not needed.

"It is a very difficult mindset to change and these people are self-deluded."

L1011

Bards wrote: »

From http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/news_detail.asp?nid=3396



No justifcation for M20 - An Taisce

An Taisce has claimed there "is no justification" for the construction of the new M20.

The heritage body believes the proposed new one billion euros superhighway between Cork and Limerick is not sustainable, in terms of likely daily traffic use.

A spokesman for An Taisce said the existing N20 has already been significantly upgraded to cope with the volume of traffic.

"This is coming at time when we are supposed to be cutting carbon emissions," declared An Taisce’s Ian Lumley.

"Road building will be the white elephant in the room in years to come. The National Roads Authority is there to build roads, so policymakers continue to build them even if they are not needed.

"It is a very difficult mindset to change and these people are self-deluded."

Which allowing cars to go at constant speed, cutting out un-needed acceleration and deceleration, will do...

Bards

... Just because we are approacing 'Peak Oil' Private transport will still continue to need roads even if cars/vans etc. will not run on oil based products in the future...

mysterious

Bards wrote: »

From http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/news_detail.asp?nid=3396



No justifcation for M20 - An Taisce

An Taisce has claimed there "is no justification" for the construction of the new M20.

The heritage body believes the proposed new one billion euros superhighway between Cork and Limerick is not sustainable, in terms of likely daily traffic use.

A spokesman for An Taisce said the existing N20 has already been significantly upgraded to cope with the volume of traffic.

"This is coming at time when we are supposed to be cutting carbon emissions," declared An Taisce’s Ian Lumley.

"Road building will be the white elephant in the room in years to come. The National Roads Authority is there to build roads, so policymakers continue to build them even if they are not needed.

"It is a very difficult mindset to change and these people are self-deluded."

NAME AND SHAME AN TAISCE for that. Absaloute poo crap coming. Who is the guy who actaully said that. An taisca as a whole cannot say such nonsense without one man influencing the decision of not needing the N20 in that quote.

1. The N20 has not been upgraded properly. In fact the road has not been upgraded since the early 1990s south of Mallow. Much of the N20 is a horse and cart width road for the majority of its lenght just north of Mallow.

2. If An taicse said that, Then Why the F*** do they want to build a motorway to Donegal and allow the building of a motorway to Waterford.

3. An taisce need toilet paper for the crap they just spilled out again.

4. M20 is vital for the counterbalance of the western seabord to compete with the east.

5. It will links Ireland's second, Third largest and fourth cities.

6. With recent upgrades of the N18, population increases along the Cork Galway corridor, the Shannon tunnel and the Expansion of Shannon airport -port and Cork Airport. A proper highway between the regions is nessescary

invincibleirish

An Taisce are probably right, at least in the increase in Carbon Emissions, but where they got the idea that the road will not not be sustainable in terms of traffic i'll never know.

You cant get a direct train between Cork & Limerick and the road between the 2 cities goes from DC-2+1-low quality single Carriageway and back again, there needs to be an improvement of any sorts in connections between the 2 cities but are An Taisce calling for any kind of alternative to the proposal?

Also it doesnt really have to be M20 either, just replacing the twisty dangerous bits & bypassing Buttevant & Charleville are the important parts, but with the retro fit of the Blarney Bypass & the failed Mallow 2+1 experiment needed anyway it makes sense i suppose to just build Motorway.

L1011

invincibleirish wrote: »

An Taisce are probably right, at least in the increase in Carbon Emissions

This is the one point they're absolutely, definately NOT right on!

Are they expecting the traffic to suddenly increase - um, no, they even say it's apparently 'unsustainable', an increase would disprove that.

Same traffic, not having to heavily slow down or stop for people pulling off the road, passing through towns, etc, etc = smoother driving, less fuel consumed, less carbon emissions.

Zoney

I would argue that in the instance of Cork and Limerick, we should actually be encouraging more traffic - encourage more commerce between the 2nd and 3rd cities in the State by having proper infrastructure to get between them.

I think the only valid argument you could make concerning the wider implications of road building in Ireland extended to the Cork-Limerick situation, is that rail services should also be upgraded (even just better Limerick Junction connections without so much layover time).

What kind of road do An Taisce suggest? The current one is unsuitable. There is little point in building a cheaper road as with having all the intermediate junctions at grade (right hand turns), there is sufficient traffic that the route would be unsafe. There's little point in building grade separated dual carriageway and not motorway.

Victor

mysterious wrote: »

2. If An taicse said that, Then Why the F*** do they want to build a motorway to Donegal and allow the building of a motorway to Waterford.

Can you expand on this?

Carawaystick

Carbon emissions are being phased out gradually, Euro4 and higher standards for compression ignition engines are being phased in.

Carbon Dioxide emissions are probably what the taisce are talking about but if they canna get their compounds correct it makes me doubt thet have a clue about anything else they say.

murphaph

Zoney wrote: »

I think the only valid argument you could make concerning the wider implications of road building in Ireland extended to the Cork-Limerick situation, is that rail services should also be upgraded

Exactly. We need both road and rail improvements. We are still in massive catch up mode and mature western European nations have mostly done all this stuff already.

E92

Carawaystick wrote: »

Carbon emissions are being phased out gradually, Euro4 and higher standards for compression ignition engines are being phased in.

Yes indeed. The SIMI says that the average car bought since July this year pollutes 21 g/km less CO2 than the average car bought a year ago.

We were at average of 162 g/km for the new car fleet apparently, so now we're down to an average of 141 g/km, which is only 1 g/km more than the voluntary EU agreement on average new car emissions for 2008 as it so happens.

The new Euro 5 standards have a cancer causing Particulate limit of just 1/5th of what the Euro 4 standards were for diesel engines. They'll be compulsory from September next year on all new cars. Petrol engines have a Nitrous Oxide limit that is 33% lower(petrols have lower limits than diesels on these type of pollutants anyway) for Euro 5 too.

Anyway, what none of the green movement seem to acknowledge is the fact that even without the VRT changes here which has improved our CO2 performance dramatically(though we'll now be breathing in the consequences of this decision through far more dirtier diesel engines) the car industry has been making enormous strides in recent years towards more efficient cars anyway.

A BMW 3 series only 4 years ago with a 2.0 litre petrol engine(the 318i) did 39.2 mpg on the EU tests. Now the same model does 47.9 mpg, or a 22% improvement in only 4 years.

Also, what are we going to do when the holy grail of automotive engineering is achieved: the pollution free car? You can't justify lower speed limits, or not building roads etc on environmental grounds then, and by that stage it'll cost far, far more to build a road suitably designed for higher speeds and a road that'll save us loads of time getting wherever we want to go; so why not just go and do it right now rather than dilly-dallying about the environment when the car industry is busy developing cars that'll no longer need the very polluting crude oil?

Lennoxschips

You forget that nearly 2/3s of a typical car's lifetime carbon emissions are produced in the production phase.

So we'd be much better off encouraging people to keep old cars on the roads rather then getting people to buy BMWs with CO2 emissions that are 140 instead of 160.

Or for people to not drive so ****ing much.

Also, what are we going to do when the holy grail of automotive engineering is achieved: the pollution free car? You can't justify lower speed limits, or not building roads etc on environmental grounds then, and by that stage it'll cost far, far more to build a road suitably designed for higher speeds and a road that'll save us loads of time getting wherever we want to go; so why not just go and do it right now rather than dilly-dallying about the environment when the car industry is busy developing cars that'll no longer need the very polluting crude oil?

haha

Calina

I am on dial up right now so limited in online activities.

If someone can point me at an An Taisce link regarding what I assume must be a press release about it not being necessary to upgrade the N20, I would be grateful. I have a few words I would like to say to them on that subject including the words "planet" and "what" and "living on".

The N20 is a road very close to my heart, particularly the twisty bits around Banogue. I drove it yesterday and will be driving it again today. I love that road and I will love it even more if it ever becomes a dual carriageway.

cjpm

D-day for the M20 route selection is approaching fast (i think its the 10th Oct, not sure though), any one have any ideas which route is emerging as the preferred or if any have been ruled out???

Thomas_B

Calina wrote: »

The N20 is a road very close to my heart

It's a bit close to my heart too.

I drive the northern bit of the N20 every day, during the busiest times (according to here: http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N20-15.htm).

It's very rare that I don't manage to average a speed of 80-90 km/h.

I also travel the full length of the N20 a few times a month.

A motorway-standard road to replace the N20 in my opinion would be overkill. Lovely of course, given infinite exchequer largesse, but surely not a priority given the crap state of our public transport infrastructure.

A bypass of Charleville would do great things for average Limerick-Cork journey times, as would bypassing Buttevant (and the windy roads immediately on the Cork side by the quarry). Anything else is senseless gold-plating.

Chris_533976

Emerging preferred route brochure is now up on www.corkrdo.ie

Calina

Thomas_B wrote: »

It's very rare that I don't manage to average a speed of 80-90 km/h.

there are long stretches between Croom and Charleville on which a speed of 80-90kpm average is foolhardy. It doesn't stop people doing it, but it's foolhardy.

It's possible to avoid Main Street Charleville which did a nice lot to cut journey times through the town until they opened the carpark for Dunnes Stores and kiboshed that. As the other carpark in the town is regularly packed I am not going to complain about that too much, however; the town should have been bypassed a very long time ago, along with Buttevant.

I'd also add that the reason much of our road infrastructure is less than sensible is because of the pennywise poundfoolish nature of doing half assed bypasses only to have to come back and re-do the job at a far higher cost a few years later.

Also I am of the opinion that the confrontational binary way of doing politics in this country - ie "either" public transport or "road infrastructure" is done is less than conducive to the economic development of the country.

Calina

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Emerging preferred route brochure is now up on www.corkrdo.ie

Not finding anything on that link...certainly no brochure for the plan anyway. I have an interest, I understand that part of the works are going to trash my parent's garden.

limklad

Calina wrote: »

Not finding anything on that link...certainly no brochure for the plan anyway. I have an interest, I understand that part of the works are going to trash my parent's garden.

http://www.corkrdo.ie/n20_cork_limerick_motorway_scheme_publications.php

There are more bends on the M20 motorway design than the current N20 road.

BluntGuy

From what I can see, the proposed Cork North Ring Road will allow access from the N8 (or M8 as the case may soon be), to the new M20. I presume the CNRR will be of motorway standard too.

That's certainly a good thing. There is no point having motorways coming to sudden ends when hitting the city - i.e Dublin. At Limerick the M20 will tie nicely into the M7, and at Cork it should tie nicely into the N22 (M22) for the M8. Hopefully that'll prevent any bottlenecks by keeping the motorway traffic moving.

Chris_533976

Unfortunately the current proposed N20/NorthRing junction will be a three level stack.

BluntGuy

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Unfortunately the current proposed N20/NorthRing junction will be a three level stack.

:mad:

Amtmann

Another death on the N20 sadly. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1119/rta.html

BluntGuy

I don't know what to say...

The N20 is a death-trap, it needs sorting out. That's all that really can be said. Condolences to the family of the victim involved...

Chris_533976

Guesswork was that someone was on the fairly straight stretch of narrow S2 and passed a lorry too close to the bend. Another lorry came round the corner in the opposity direction and bam.

Absolute guesswork, but I've seen so many near misses on that road its ridiculous.

I wonder if there would be any legal arguments that the relatives could take against the goverment for incorrectly prioritising the roads program? I doubt it, but you never know.