N20 thread

Carawaystick

Is this N20 not part of the Atlantic route thingamy from T21? surely plans were made before the unveiling of that fine plan ( with Guaranteed funding 34 billion [count 'em]) Transport 21?

The issue with the 2+1 is the fact it's too short, stopping well south of Mallow. there's only about 2 or 3 passing places northbound.

corktina

there are a lot more issues than that...ie some of the double lane sections are DOWNHILL meaning that slow vehicles in the OTHER direction cannot be overtaken as they toil UPHILL.....but the biggest factor against this section is the ignorant stupid Irish drivers (and others no doubt) who drive dead slow throught the single bits and then put their foot down on the double OR hog the outside lane to prevent anyway overtaking OR who take AGES to pass one lorry so that noone else gets by it OR who leave their move to the last momnet and end up in the cross-hatched section..... I could go on (and on and on)

but by far the biggest gripe is that the money spent could have put two lanes in either direction (except at junctions) for very little extra effort (there is loads of room all along that stretch.

Final whinge...WHY was it considered necessary to have that barrier in the centre when further along that road there are three lane sections with no barrier...

God I hate that road....i usually travel to Cork over Nadd summit instead....quicker although an awful road...

cjpm

Thanks for the map Chris, it seems a very logical route esp sinc the new dump is being built to the east of Rathduff...

I would imagine that it would be possible for the new scheme to cross the existing N20 (+ rail line) approx at the "Lissard" place name on your Google Map. At that location the new N20 would be almost at a right angle to the existing N20 and the rail line thus reducing the bridge works required...

I might give the NRDO a shout at some stage to see if i can get any info, i wouldn't hold my breath though!!

invincibleirish

What about the rail line, will there be provisions for say P&R sites & future proofing the rail line and its alignment along the new N20?

Chris_533976

Blarney P&R I think? There'll be a new station there eventually and I think a P&R to go along with it.

invincibleirish

Ah Chris, ever the font of knowledge when i have questions to be answered, how do you do it you jammy dodger?

Chris_533976

I have too much time on my hands

Colm R

I think the city council are anxious for the county conucil and IE to build the P&R at Blarney. Once complete, the city can move ahead with making QBC out of the Blackpool bypass.

childoforpheus

http://www.corkrdo.ie/n20_cork_limerick_motorway_scheme_publications.php
Got a copy of this brochure in the door today. Looks like the upgrade to motorway is being taken seiously. I know its a good bit off construction yet but its good to see some progress. The routes look pretty good too and good to see the M20/N21 Junction looks like its going to be free flow.

loyatemu

is there a case for directing Cork-Limerick traffic up the M8 and then via a new road from Mitchelstown to the N24 (which itself could be dualled into Limerick)?

don't know the area well but purely from a lines-on-a-map perspective it seems plausible.

childoforpheus

loyatemu wrote: »

is there a case for directing Cork-Limerick traffic up the M8 and then via a new road from Mitchelstown to the N24 (which itself could be dualled into Limerick)?

don't know the area well but purely from a lines-on-a-map perspective it seems plausible.

The N20 is a better choice for two reasons:
1. The Motorway will act as a bypass of Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville,
2. The region between the N8 at Mitchelstown and the N24 has alot of hills and mountains in the way which would increase the cost.

Chris_533976

childoforpheus wrote: »

http://www.corkrdo.ie/n20_cork_limerick_motorway_scheme_publications.php
Got a copy of this brochure in the door today. Looks like the upgrade to motorway is being taken seiously. I know its a good bit off construction yet but its good to see some progress. The routes look pretty good too and good to see the M20/N21 Junction looks like its going to be free flow.

Nice one. I'll email them the route map I made, out of interest, and will bug them about making the M20/N21 a freeflow like they say, and not having it scaled back.

Looks like they've registered www.n20.ie , as the email address in that brochure points to that domain.

Zoney

N21,N20 is pretty much freeflow actually - basically a trumpet interchange but with the local road (old N20) attached at the northern end. Just a little work on lanes/kerbs is needed to avoid people having to stop/yield to merge (e.g. continuing on N20 Limerick->Cork merges with traffic from N21 and old N20 - at present only one lane so you have to stop/yield before left turn at the top of the sliproad).

Anyways, my point is they can't actually mess up the N20/N21 junction. I would much more prioritise bugging them about the planned N20/Northern Ring Road junction down in Cork - which I believe there were plans attached to the NRR project showing it as a miserable stacked roundabout (ala Dunkettle, Red Cow, etc).

Chris_533976

Crosspost from Sabre -

Due to public demand, route options for the €1 billion motorway between Cork and Limerick will reamin on display next week.

Submissions on the M20 road project will now be accepted up until Friday, August 15, following enormous public interest in the vast road project since the route corridor options went on public display in Blarney, Mallow, Charleville and Croom.

Six route options are under consideration for the proposed 90km motorway, which will run from a junction on the planned northern ring road around Cork city, near Killeens, to a point east of Adare at Patrickswell.

The preferred route should go on public display by October, and detailed designs will then get underway. Work could start on the first phase of the project in late 2010 or early 2011.

Hopefully the 'enormous public interest' wont be along the lines of 'enormous public whinging'

Lennoxschips

1. The Motorway will act as a bypass of Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville,

if limerick-cork traffic goes via the M8, then the need for a mallow bypass will have been reduced, no?

Amtmann

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Crosspost from Sabre -



Hopefully the 'enormous public interest' wont be along the lines of 'enormous public whinging'

So it would appear that this is going to happen, regardless of cutbacks?

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

So it would appear that this is going to happen, regardless of cutbacks?

Did the fact that the government has already exceeded its permitted borrowing ceiling of €6bn this year ( based on expenditure to end July only ) pass completely over the heads of the Corkonian contingent around here.

There is no chance of this road being built in 2010 or 2011 . Even if there were money which of course there is NOT can anybody here point me to ANY major road project which went from INITIAL route selection to construction in 2 years flat in Ireland , or even 3 years .

I certainly never saw one, not even on the high priority M1 Motorway . 4 to 5 years between initial route selection and construction is the norm ...and that's when the money is there.

A nice line will be drawn on a map next year sometime and then the project will die until well out into the next decade I am sorry to tell you.

Don't worry overmuch as the N18 will die equally with it . I can categorically assure one and all that the N18 will not be complete before 2013/2014 ...if then.

Zoney

The repeating trumpeting of how nothing more will be built is getting rather wearing now to be honest, regardless of how accurate such a statement is. Apart from anything else it is far too defeatist. It simply isn't acceptable to shortchange ourselves just because there is a deficit at the moment. The cutting back of third level funding for example is nothing short of outrageous considering how grossly underfunded the sector already was.

What on earth is the intention for Ireland five years into the future nevermind decades? The current cutbacks are not exactly setting us up for a rosy future even if the downturn is shortlived.

Amtmann

Sponge Bob wrote: »

can anybody here point me to ANY major road project which went from INITIAL route selection to construction in 2 years flat in Ireland , or even 3 years .

I'm pretty certain that the Cashel to Mitchelstown M8 project did.

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

I'm pretty certain that the Cashel to Mitchelstown M8 project did.

Not quite, construction started 2006 if I recall and the consultants were appointed in 2000 .

5 and a half years it took my friend , linky and linky

Options Published and Consultations in October 2000 ( where the N20 is now) , Construction finally started March 2006 . Country awash with cash at the time.

And Zoney, the ability to count is not defeatism , please ! Once you add the cost of all Dempseys and Cullens promises together you are well over €30bn without even being completist about it .

darkman2

I think the government has made it quite clear that infrastructure is priority and that they will borrow if nessacary. Cash is freed up once road projects are completed. This can be passed on to other projects. This slow down is only temporary and it is not a disaster by any stetch of the imagination. This is a rich country and rich countries tend not to become poor again overnight. Some people really need to get a grip and a sense of reality. Look at Germany - its officially entered a recession at twice the rate of Ireland. Are they going to become poor? Will they stop building infrastructure? All this scaremongering is rediculous. I heard the same rubbish back in 2001 after 9/11 during that slowdown. There are also PPP mechanisms to aid development if you want to penny pinch. Yes things are tighter but people need to get a sense of perspective - this is not nothing like the 80's.

corktina

Lennoxschips wrote: »

if limerick-cork traffic goes via the M8, then the need for a mallow bypass will have been reduced, no?

no...the problem with mallow is the east west traffic not the north south....if there were to be no M8. a bypass to take the traffic out of the town centre would still be needed.....with an M8 you can route the west to east traffic north or south to the handiest M8 junction with the old N20 and around the town to a N72 junction away to the east....and vice versa

D.L.R.

darkman2 wrote: »

I think the government has made it quite clear that infrastructure is priority and that they will borrow if nessacary. Cash is freed up once road projects are completed. This can be passed on to other projects. This slow down is only temporary and it is not a disaster by any stetch of the imagination. This is a rich country and rich countries tend not to become poor again overnight. Some people really need to get a grip and a sense of reality. Look at Germany - its officially entered a recession at twice the rate of Ireland. Are they going to become poor? Will they stop building infrastructure? All this scaremongering is rediculous. I heard the same rubbish back in 2001 after 9/11 during that slowdown. There are also PPP mechanisms to aid development if you want to penny pinch. Yes things are tighter but people need to get a sense of perspective - this is not nothing like the 80's.

Correct. I was in Berlin recently and the amount of construction going on is mind-blowing. Nevertheless, compared to this much larger city, Dublin holds its own in terms of construction activity. We have to keep it up though, and things like the Atlantic Motorway/Interconnector/Metro North must be built as scheduled. Look at the benefits of these projects as well as the costs, folks.

marmurr1916

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not quite, construction started 2006 if I recall and the consultants were appointed in 2000 .

5 and a half years it took my friend , linky and linky

Options Published and Consultations in October 2000 ( where the N20 is now) , Construction finally started March 2006 . Country awash with cash at the time.

And Zoney, the ability to count is not defeatism , please ! Once you add the cost of all Dempseys and Cullens promises together you are well over €30bn without even being completist about it .

SpongeBob - you've obviously never heard of Keynesian economics!

I suspect the government is planning to increase taxation (although this will probably be done on a 'stealth' basis by not increasing tax credit bands/other tax allowances in line with inflation, getting rid of some tax allowances and increasing some of the more 'obscure' indirect taxes) and borrowing to try and combat the effects of the recession, although it doesn't want to admit this just yet.

In fact, I'm hopeful that the monetarist economic thinking that has dominated governments in the anglophone world for the past 20-25 years is now dead and that Keynesian economics will come back into vogue once again.

If that happens, then we can expect an increase in public capital expenditure, rather than a decrease.

1huge1

marmurr1916 wrote: »

SpongeBob - you've obviously never heard of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics]Keynesian economics[/URL]!

I suspect the government is planning to increase taxation (although this will probably be done on a 'stealth' basis by not increasing tax credit bands/other tax allowances in line with inflation, getting rid of some tax allowances and increasing some of the more 'obscure' indirect taxes) and borrowing to try and combat the effects of the recession, although it doesn't want to admit this just yet.

In fact, I'm hopeful that the monetarist economic thinking that has dominated governments in the anglophone world for the past 20-25 years is now dead and that Keynesian economics will come back into vogue once again.

If that happens, then we can expect an increase in public capital expenditure, rather than a decrease.

that link doesn't work by the way

this is what your looking for
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics

Victor

darkman2 wrote: »

There are also PPP mechanisms to aid development if you want to penny pinch.

But the banks have no money to do PPPs.

ardmacha

But the banks have no money to do PPPs.

A bit of creative accounting is needed. Erect a toll gate about Newbridge and sell it to the National Pension fund and you have quite a few million to play with.

Sponge Bob

ardmacha wrote: »

A bit of creative accounting is needed. Erect a toll gate about Newbridge and sell it to the National Pension fund and you have quite a few million to play with.

Thats exactly what they are thinking of except that the NPRF is good for maybe 2 large projects and an investment of €5bn ( 1/4 of its assets) total.

There is the untolled Waterford motorway and the Dublin Outer Orbital for example which is a convenient Northern extension of the M9 .

Then maybe the Dublin Interconnector and thats all the NPRF funds gone.

I would be amazed if there was anything left over for the Limerick Cork Motorway somehow but one lives in hope.

Zoney

The point is that it is not optional. Money has to be found somewhere for the project. It is holding the region back to have such poor links between Galway, Limerick and Cork.

It is detrimental to not just the long term, but the medium term and even short term economic health of the country to cut back on infrastructure and certain other essential areas such as education.

There is plenty of money in the country, supposed recession notwithstanding - the government simply need to appropriate it from where they can get away with doing so.

invincibleirish

Time for me to put my parochial politics hat on and suggest that money marked for cross border road projects be diverted to funding infrastructure development within this economy.

It makes no sense for the N20 & N18 to not be built/delayed or built in a piecemeal fashion when there are plans for the ROI to fund roads & Airports in the north. Why should this state pay for infrastructure in an area which is part of a G8 economy.

Motorway to Donegal through Derry-Fermanagh & Tyrone? or Motorway linking 3 of the states 5 cities?

No brainer really.