N20 thread

Zoney

1huge1 wrote: »

Not a major point but I don't know what improvement your on about on the N24, that road is as terrible as always

The stretch out of Limerick got quite a rebuild a couple years back - it's grand now (wide two lane with hard shoulder) until past the first two villages (which have proper main street/traffic calming).

invincibleirish

Chris_533976 wrote: »

N22 Ballyvourney - Macroom is going ahead fairly soon, its getting priority to the N20 Mallow - Croom, and I kind of agree. Mallow - Croom is bad but tolerable, Macroom has a bridge that cant take a lorry and a car at the same time and sections west of Macroom are just downright dangerous.

is the N22 going to be Dual carriageway or wide 2 lane? over the years i've seen conflicting press reports.

on NRA.ie

This scheme will involve the construction of up to 21.5 km of new carriageway from Coolcour at the eastern side of the Macroom, to Ovens at the western end of the Ballincollig bypass. The Preferred Route has been selected

the western end of the Ballincollig bypass is getting 18k per day.

Chris_533976

Ive heard a ton of different reports too.

Latest (but possibly not correct) version I've heard is that it'll be dualled from Ballincollig to the other side of Macroom. But I heard that before the 2+2 splurge thats going on now. What with some very lightly trafficed roads up north being 2+2ed in the future, I would guess that this scheme will be HQDC to Macroom then 2+2 to Ballyvourney.

Chris_533976

A GOOD UPDATE FOR A CHANGE.

Cork RDO website ( www.corkrdo.ie ) has updated recently.

I quote ->

N20 - Cork Limerick Motorway Scheme

The Cork Limerick Motorway Scheme forms part of the Atlantic Corridor

Consultants have been appointed to bring this scheme to CPO/MO and EIS preliminary design stage. The scheme is at present divided into 3 sections:

* Blarney to Mallow including Mallow Bypass
* Mallow to Croom
* Croom to Patrickswell

The consultants are located in the new Castlelands Office building on the Cork side of Mallow (just off the old Cork Road) since mid -April 2008. These consultants will review all existing designs and proposals and bring the entire scheme to Motorway standard. Public consultations will take place in August and September 2008 to present the route options and preferred route corridor.



The contact telephone number for the new central office in Mallow is 022 70200.

The main contact names are as follows:

* Blarney to Mallow- Eileen McCarthy (Arup)
* Mallow to Croom- Matt Cunningham (PH McCarthy)
* Croom to Patrickswell – Barbara Grabis (PH McCarthy)



Other numbers and contact names:



Cork National Roads Office – Ger Patton 021 4821046

Mid-West National Roads Office – Ciaran Hegarty 061 496800

Note the good news regarding MOTORWAY ORDERS.

So this seems to be going ahead, as M, with public consultations in August and September 2008.

And this was updated in the last few days, so the economic downturn doesnt seem to be pushing this back any further.

Still no idea on construction start, but it'll be post 2010. In 2010 at the earliest.

E92

Looking forward to it, and quite possibly a Motorway as well:eek::D!

It'll be SO much faster to get to Limerick(and get out of it:D), I can't wait.

Could the NRA also upgrade the Dual Carriageway coming into Limerick to Motorway as well while they're at it please:)?

Speaking of which, when will we know about the N6/.../N9 being reclassified to the roads they should always have been now that the public consultation is long since done?

Chris_533976

No idea But the N20 into Limerick will probably be motorway as it is up to the task.

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote: »

No idea But the N20 into Limerick will probably be motorway as it is up to the task.

Looks like the Adare Bypass will be the M21 as well according to the document. So a M20 from the planned Cork NRR to the Limerick SRR is very possible. Am I right in saying that the current N20/N21 would need to be moved northwards/southwards?? If southwards, it could perhaps form part of the Adare scheme (or be allowed for at least)

mysterious

nordydan wrote: »

Looks like the Adare Bypass will be the M21 as well according to the document. So a M20 from the planned Cork NRR to the Limerick SRR is very possible. Am I right in saying that the current N20/N21 would need to be moved northwards/southwards?? If southwards, it could perhaps form part of the Adare scheme (or be allowed for at least)

Hmmm that will be interesting as to how they will work this one out,

I.e separateing local trafiic and old road to build a new alignment for the motorway.

I'd imagine the Adare bypass being a motorway it has traffic that no inter urban has at present. Shocking fact. The existing N20/N21 is fine at present, but much to tight to fit motorway type traffic there!

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

is the N22 going to be Dual carriageway or wide 2 lane? over the years i've seen conflicting press reports.

on NRA.ie




the western end of the Ballincollig bypass is getting 18k per day.

This route will be wide lane or S2 most of its entire route. I've travelled this road a few years ago, its in dire state on some stretches, but freakishinly quiet on most parts except near Kilarney, Macroom and Ballincollig. So S2 is more than sufficient.

On a sidenote on sabre, I hear someone say that the M20 full blown motorway is a waste of money, but I hear them saying, M9 or M18 is needed.. BS from people never fails to amaze me..

ich_verschwinde

There was a way that the NRA could have saved alot of money in developing the Munster roads.
Instead of developing the N8 and the N7 out of Cork and Limerick why didnt they build a brand new (say 6 lane Motorway) from Cork to a point 30km southeast of Limerick .. (something that roughly follows the current Cork-Limerick Junction rail) . This road would then split into 2.. one road going to Limerick and the other (a 6 lane motorway)going to Dublin. . That means that the Cork/Dublin Cork/Limerick Road would be the same road for the first 100km or so. but they could have eliminated out an awful lot of work for themselves that way but merging the Cork/Limerick and Cork/Dublin routes into one!

They'd easily need 3 lanes on each side to carry the volumes.. but that cost would have been nothing compared to the price they're paying to develop the roads now seperately

anyway, its done now but it was just a thought :rolleyes:

ich_verschwinde

This is the motorway they should've built ..:rolleyes:

murphaph

mysterious wrote: »

This route will be wide lane or S2 most of its entire route.

Wide two lane has been abandoned to make way for type III DC (2+1) or type II (2+2). WS2 is not set to be used on any future projects due to a poor saftey record and existing WS2 is to be retrofitted with one of the dual carriageway types where possible.

murphaph

ich_verschwinde wrote: »

This is the motorway they should've built ..:rolleyes:

I used to be of a similar opinion but upon reflection I was wrong. That is the way they built motorways in GB-ie, feeding lots of traffic into D3 or D4 motorways as opposed to the continental (especially German) method of building a more dense network of D2 roads.

The key differences are redundancy and upgradability. A single incident on the M6 or M1 can grind north-south traffic to a halt if a carriageway has to close (spillage, accident etc.) in Britain whereas in Germany there are generally plenty of alternate Autobahn routes from point A to point B and the 1974 planned Autobahn network isn't even complete yet (eg, large gaps in the A4 etc.).

We will be glad of the network we are building in future.

nordydan

ich_verschwinde wrote: »

This is the motorway they should've built ..:rolleyes:

The mountain range alone would have forced the M8 along the existing route as far as Cahir. This makes it unappealing as a cork-limerick route. it could double up as a cork-waterford route however. Maybe...

invincibleirish

This thread is great except the fact that the project is awaiting financing in the post 2010 period. just like the N22, SRR Roundabouts, Cork North Ring Road and the N28 and the Dunkettle upgrade.

Now what gets priority?

Zoney

invincibleirish wrote: »

Now what gets priority?

TD and civil service salaries.

jank

I would have SRR Roundabouts, N28 (because of the docklands move), N20, Dunkettle upgrade, Northern Cork Ring Road and lastly N22.

Thats the prority i would have but its difficult to say what the NRA will do.

Sure they will all get finance in 2010.;)
But looking ahead to 2020 ish, these should all be done. Cork wont have a bad road network at all.
Now how about some rail!:D

ich_verschwinde

arent we supposed to get a Luas in Cork by 2020 aswell? wow, we'll have amazing infrastructure by then..

Chris_533976

jank wrote: »

I would have SRR Roundabouts, N28 (because of the docklands move), N20, Dunkettle upgrade, Northern Cork Ring Road and lastly N22.

Looking at the way projects are going, the N22 is at the top of the list (Ballyvourney - Macroom anyway), then either the SRRs or the N28, then the North Ring, then the N20 and finally the Dunkettle upgrade.

Thats guesswork tho, just looking at things and announcements and all that.

Bards

from http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/news_detail.asp?nid=2913
================================================

The Government has approved new Public Private Partnership funding in excess of €1 billion for the building of new national roads in the country.

In total, there is now enough funding in place for almost 200km of road and Transport Minister Noel Dempsey has instructed the NRA to proceed with raising the private finance for the construction of two sections of the N20.

A spokesman for the NRA said: “The costs are with the vendor and the State does not have liabilities assurance. And you are freeing current revenue for other projects.”

Work on the N20 and the N17 are expected to begin in 2010 And will see significant development in the Atlantic road corridor linking Donegal to cork, via Galway and Limerick.

spacetweek

Bards wrote: »

from http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/news_detail.asp?nid=2913
================================================

The Government has approved new Public Private Partnership funding in excess of €1 billion for the building of new national roads in the country.

In total, there is now enough funding in place for almost 200km of road and Transport Minister Noel Dempsey has instructed the NRA to proceed with raising the private finance for the construction of two sections of the N20.

A spokesman for the NRA said: “The costs are with the vendor and the State does not have liabilities assurance. And you are freeing current revenue for other projects.”

Work on the N20 and the N17 are expected to begin in 2010 And will see significant development in the Atlantic road corridor linking Donegal to cork, via Galway and Limerick.

The same news article in the Indo Motors section goes on to state that tolls will not be placed on any of these roads.

I'm glad they're getting the private sector to pay for the big projects (i.e. remaining motorways for Atlantic Corridor) and concentrating the rest of their resources on the two-laners and minor bypasses. Hopefully this will tie in with a general drop in the obscene funding levels the NRA get each year (2 billion now) so that we can pass the money over to public transport.We're still at a 70:30 split in favour of roads, it should be the other way around.

cjpm

Does anyone know where the proposed route corridors are from Rathduff to Mallow, i.e. east or west of the current N20??
Will the new road comprise of sections of the old upgraded or will it run parallel a few km to one side???

Chris, maybe you could enlighten me...you seem very knowledgable regarding road schemes??

Colm R

I would imagine that much of the road will be build along the current alignment with a few compulsory purchases. This road was rebuilt during the 80s and there has not been very many dwellings built along it. In fact a friend of mine had planning permission refused beside his parents house, about 200 meters back from the existing road because of whats planned for the road.


However, if its going to be a motorway, I suppose an alternative will have to be provided. Would the R619 and R579 suffice?

childoforpheus

cjpm wrote: »

Does anyone know where the proposed route corridors are from Rathduff to Mallow, i.e. east or west of the current N20??
Will the new road comprise of sections of the old upgraded or will it run parallel a few km to one side???

Chris, maybe you could enlighten me...you seem very knowledgable regarding road schemes??

As far as I know from Blarney to Rathduff will be upgraded and from Rathduff to Mallow will be off line. As far as I know it will go to the east of Rathduff and then somewhere between Rathduff and Mallow it will cross to the west side of he existing road. It will then terminate at New Twopothouse village. The entire route from Rathduff to Mallow would be offline.

cjpm

Any idea where i might find more detailed info about to the route and the proposed crossing point?? Has the preferred route been identified??

childoforpheus

Its still at the Feasibility Study stage at the moment (according to the NRA) but the Cork Road Design Office has consultants appointed to bring the scheme to CPO/MO and EIS stage. If you want more info I suggest you send the Cork Road Design Office an e-mail.

invincibleirish

let me just throw what a waste time it was making the N20 from Blarney-Mallow 2+1 a few years ago, i used to use the raof frequently and 2+1s flaws were hugely evident from day one.

NRA = FAIL.

Zoney

invincibleirish wrote: »

let me just throw what a waste time it was making the N20 from Blarney-Mallow 2+1 a few years ago, i used to use the raof frequently and 2+1s flaws were hugely evident from day one.

NRA = FAIL.

The NRA have made plenty of mistakes, but would the 2+1 flaws have been evident without the <b>trials</b> such as on the N20. The N20 one was probably chosen to test how 2+1 worked out on a stretch with lots of junctions (as a contrast to the nice straight 2+1 stretch on the N24 for example).

And, following these initial attempts at 2+1, they have decided to go with 2+2 (two lane dual carriageway with wire barrier and without hard shoulders), rather than intrasigently sticking to their guns.

I think the only fair criticism is that only one brand new 2+1 build should have been undertaken to start with, rather than the handful we now have such as on N24 and N4. It was probably necessary to try out at least one though, as well as a couple retrofits to different types of existing road stretches.

Chris_533976

cjpm wrote: »

Does anyone know where the proposed route corridors are from Rathduff to Mallow, i.e. east or west of the current N20??
Will the new road comprise of sections of the old upgraded or will it run parallel a few km to one side???

Chris, maybe you could enlighten me...you seem very knowledgable regarding road schemes??

Got your PM

All I know about this one at the moment is that it'll be online upgrade from Cork to Rathduff and then offline DC from there to the north of Newtwopothouse where it'll tie in with the Mallow - Croom scheme. However, I dont know what exact changes there'll be as they are now going to do this as motorway instead of all purpose dual. That means for the online bits, there'll have to be a slightly wider area of CPO, as an alternative route has to be provided.

I have a basic (and old) map of the Mallow - Croom section but nothing from Cork - Mallow. My guess is that'll it'll go east of Rathduf, but thats all I can tell by guesswork. I'd also say it'll go west of Mallow with a junction to the south of Mallow (where it crosses the current road) but thats only utter guesswork, looking at the general terrain and a sensible spot to chuck a junction.

There are public consultations soon tho, not sure when/where, but this is off the Cork RDO website. Worth your while ringing them up and having a chat, I'm sure they'll understand.

Consultants have been appointed to bring this scheme to CPO/MO and EIS preliminary design stage. The scheme is at present divided into 3 sections:

1. Blarney to Mallow including Mallow Bypass
2. Mallow to Croom
3. Croom to Patrickswell


The consultants are located in the new Castlelands Office building on the Cork side of Mallow (just off the old Cork Road) since mid -April 2008. These consultants will review all existing designs and proposals and bring the entire scheme to Motorway standard. Public consultations will take place in August and September 2008 to present the route options and preferred route corridor.

The contact telephone number for the new central office in Mallow is 022 70200.
The main contact names are as follows:

* Blarney to Mallow- Eileen McCarthy (Arup)
* Mallow to Croom- Matt Cunningham (PH McCarthy)
* Croom to Patrickswell – Barbara Grabis (PH McCarthy)


Other numbers and contact names:
Cork National Roads Office – Ger Patton 021 4821046
Mid-West National Roads Office – Ciaran Hegarty 061 496800


Dated 16th of April 2008

http://www.corkrdo.ie/n20_cork_limerick_motorway_scheme_current_stage.php

Hope that helps


Ok I made a quick map. Mallow - Croom is a rough copy from an old map I have (but I may change a bit due to motorway geometry). Cork - Rathduff is ok, Rathduff - Mallow is absolute guesswork from me. But it seems a reasonably sensible route and it'll be interesting to see how it reflects reality.

All junctions are guesswork too.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=uk&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=112802807239951951301.00044f52962a002abdedc

invincibleirish

Zoney wrote: »

The NRA have made plenty of mistakes, but would the 2+1 flaws have been evident without the <b>trials</b> such as on the N20. The N20 one was probably chosen to test how 2+1 worked out on a stretch with lots of junctions (as a contrast to the nice straight 2+1 stretch on the N24 for example).

And, following these initial attempts at 2+1, they have decided to go with 2+2 (two lane dual carriageway with wire barrier and without hard shoulders), rather than intrasigently sticking to their guns.

I think the only fair criticism is that only one brand new 2+1 build should have been undertaken to start with, rather than the handful we now have such as on N24 and N4. It was probably necessary to try out at least one though, as well as a couple retrofits to different types of existing road stretches.

I think the mistake was in designating the Mallow - Blarney N20 as a 2+1 when its AADTs were always going to suggest it it would get DC/M status in the not too distance future, 2+1 was out of date before it was even implemented.

2+1 could still be used for the minor N & R roads, its a handy solution surely to have in the case of other options like DC being too costly, the N71 in West Cork could be 2+1 for instance.