N20 thread

Chris_533976

Ok the ongoing saga of the deplorable state of the N20 from Cork to Limerick has maybe got a **little** bit of the way towards being fixed. Its long been seen on the NRA website as 'Mallow - Croom DC'. Saw this in a publication off Cork Co Councils website.

http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/823668369.doc

N20 Blarney to Mallow - €250,000.00
Design process commenced leading ultimately to the
Selection of a preferred route corridor.

N20 Mallow-Croom - €350,000.00
Preferred route corridor selected – ongoing design work

Not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, but at least they are putting some design ideas in for Blarney - Mallow AS WELL AS Mallow - Croom.

Obviously Mallow - Croom is in a terrible state and needs to be done soon, but Blarney - Mallow needs DC as well. Its ridiculously over capacity for a WS2. Tho I can understand it would be further down the list of priorities than Mallow-Croom.

Might have to send some emails to get more info

Zoney

The only immediate work to happen on the N20 will be the new N20/N7 junction at Rossbrien outside Limerick city. This will see the N20 dual carriageway meet the N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road dual carriageway at a partially free flow interchange.

One major change will be that the N20 will no longer continue into Limerick City but will end on the SRR; there will be no access from N20 northbound or N7 Westbound (SRR phase 1) to Childers Road. Citybound traffic will have to join the ring road and head west to the N69 Dock Road, or east to the N24 Tipp Road. The latter is a diamond interchange, the former will be a dumbell interchange with one of the two roundabouts on the N69 being the current Cement Factory roundabout where the Raheen Link road also joins on. Fun.

Currently the DC on the N20 ends at a roundabout at the end of the current N7 SRR (phase 1) and the N20 continues into the city centre along the John Carew Park Link, Childers Road, etc. These links of course are ridiculous for traffic filtering from two dual carriageways into the city, but removing access is a rather drastic solution.

Link: EIS non-technical summary (PDF - 134kB).

Chris_533976

Yeah thats gonna cause hell isnt it Even the Cork - Galway bus goes across the roundabout into the city. Its gonna be a bit of a mess, and theres easily room to allow freeflow access down to it, or keep the roundabout and put a mainline flyover (SRR#1 and SRR#2) and freeflow onto it, keeping citybound traffic going round the roundabout.

Ford Cortina

Zoney wrote:

The only immediate work to happen on the N20 will be the new N20/N7 junction at Rossbrien outside Limerick city. This will see the N20 dual carriageway meet the N7 Limerick Southern Ring Road dual carriageway at a partially free flow interchange.

One major change will be that the N20 will no longer continue into Limerick City but will end on the SRR; there will be no access from N20 northbound or N7 Westbound (SRR phase 1) to Childers Road. Citybound traffic will have to join the ring road and head west to the N69 Dock Road, or east to the N24 Tipp Road. The latter is a diamond interchange, the former will be a dumbell interchange with one of the two roundabouts on the N69 being the current Cement Factory roundabout where the Raheen Link road also joins on. Fun.

Currently the DC on the N20 ends at a roundabout at the end of the current N7 SRR (phase 1) and the N20 continues into the city centre along the John Carew Park Link, Childers Road, etc. These links of course are ridiculous for traffic filtering from two dual carriageways into the city, but removing access is a rather drastic solution.

Link: EIS non-technical summary (PDF - 134kB).

Zoney,

Are you still an "Angry Student"? It made me angry when I saw that you used the name "zoney (Angry Student) on Irish Railway News forum - I empathize with you. I get angry if I don't get my puddin' 'n pie. Is Jarvis still at UL?? I actually know who you are.

Regards,
Georgy Porgy

Chris_533976

Well that was a post in my thread that I could NEVER have predicted

Victor

On topic please .....

Chris_533976

Ok little update.

If you could upgrade any part of the N20 at the moment, which part would you upgrade. Take your pick.

1) Blarney - Mallow (Wide S2, overcapacity)
2) Mallow - Croom (Narrow S2 and very bendy)
3) Croom - Patrickswell (Grade Separated Wide S2)





If you said 1) or 2) you'd be wrong!!!! Cos look what I just found ->

Short description of nature and quantity or supplies or services

The scheme involves upgrading the section of the N20 road which runs from the southern end of the current Croom Bypass to the junction with the N21 close to Patrickswell to dual carriageway standard. This is a distance of approximately 9 km. Consultants will be required to provide the necessary design support and documentation to enable Limerick County Council to fast track this scheme.

NOTE: Further information relating to this notice may be available on the eTenders Web Site at http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Switch.aspx?ID=44627.

"Lets take the best bit of the road and upgrade it, ignoring the rubbish bits".

I guess it does only cost €500,000, which is small in the grand scheme of things, especially compared to the new builds from Blarney - Croom, but you have to admit its hilarious for them to upgrade the Croom bypass to DC when the rest is still being designed

At least they are DCing it, which is good. Its a step in the right direction

murphaph

It's a fair while since I traveled the croom bypass. How wide is it? Doesn't it cut through some rock somewhere? Big job to dual it?

Zoney

Croom bypass is very wide two lane with the extra wide hard shoulders. However, at least part of it is on a raised embankment and another section is through a cutting, where the junction for Croom is. I would expect any dualling to be very expensive as a result, but probably could be done online.

There'd probably have to be some LILOs as well.

Chris_533976

I would have thought it fairly cheap to Dual. Its VERY wide, as in OUTRAGEOUSLY wide for an S2. They might have to widen some raised parts a little, but they could squeeze a DC with concrete centre divider in with only a few metres of tar on either side. I reckon they built it with this in mind, TBH.

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote:

Its VERY wide, as in OUTRAGEOUSLY wide for an S2.

That's because it's not S2, it is WS2, or "wide two lane". This class of road has gigantic lanes, 10m rather than 7.3m, as well as 2.5m hard shoulders. However, the Croom bypass seems to be particularly wide, as say compared to the Mallow-Cork stretch that was also WS2 and wide enough to be converted to 2+1.

For useful recent (Feb 2006) resource on NRA's idea of road types, check out this document: Interim Advice Note on Road Link Design for 2+1 Roads, Revision A - February 2006 (PDF - 4.85MB). Relevant table is on page 6/2 (41 of PDF). The recommended AADT figures are interesting to cross-correlate with the automatically generated traffic counter figures on the NRA site (the links to these are broken, you need to manually fix them replacing backslash with forward slash).

Chris_533976

Im not sure what a 'Consultancy Service" actually do, but they are looking for some for the two N20 schemes.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=APR082282
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=APR082284

From reading those, it seems Blarney - Mallow will be from Blarney to the northern end of Mallow VIA A NEW MALLOW BYPASS. They are not using the current one.

The other scheme will be from Mallow to Croom bypass.

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote:

Im not sure what a 'Consultancy Service" actually do, but they are looking for some for the two N20 schemes.

Probably to say "ah no, you don't need dual carriageway. 2+1 will do rightly."

Chris_533976

"We recommend a little bit of tar around Buttevant and a hose pipe to clean the dust off the road from the quarry"

Chris_533976

Ok the NRA have updated their website and given a **little** bit more information.

N20 Blarney to Mallow

This scheme is a proposed retrofit of dual carriageway between Blarney and Rathduff and an offline dual carriageway between Rathduff and the southern end of Buttevant Bypass.

N20 Mallow to Croom

The scheme involves 37 km of dual carriageway including bypasses of Buttevant & Charleville extending from north of Newtwopothouse to the southern end of Croom bypass.

N20 Croom to Patrickswell

This scheme involves approximately 9 km of the N20 from Attyflin, Patrickswell to Anhid, Croom, Co Limerick and involves the upgrading of the existing road from a wide single carriageway to a dual carriageway.

Would love to know how they're going to fix the TOTSO at the N20/N21 junction. Is it going to be a bridge as it still stands, or will it be upgraded to a GSJ?

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote:

Would love to know how they're going to fix the TOTSO at the N20/N21 junction. Is it going to be a bridge as it still stands, or will it be upgraded to a GSJ?

Well, technically it is a GSJ at present - albeit it's not quite freeflow due to the connection to Patrickswell (R526 - former N20). It would otherwise be perfect trumpet GSJ - quite a reasonable option due to the freeflow nature of the layout (the main drawback is the curvature on the N20 northbound slip - though this isn't that bad as there was quite a large land-take for it).

They may well just tie in the new dual carriageway into the existing junction; have the N20 southbound slip (i.e. from current DC up to the junction) become a smooth lane gain at the top of the junction as the N20 continues south (with the lane next to the median being traffic from across the bridge from N21 northbound). On the N20 northbound approaching the junction, simply have the lane by the verge be dropped for the slip to N21 southbound.

As you can probably visualise, that's very close to freeflow and needs little work beyond running the new dual carriageway right up to the existing junction.

Chris_533976

Quick little update from the Cork Independant. Of course, this particular article isnt online, but heres the jist of it.

A walloping €3.9 million investment in the national roads in Cork North West in 2008.

€2.6 million of this in total for -
Close out of N22 Ballincollig bypass
Planning phase of N20 Mallow-Croom
Movement of N22 Ballyvourney-Macroom towards CPO.

€1.3 million
Pavement works in Buttevant N20
Ballymakeera Overlay & Toonlane Realignment N22


€3.6 mil out of €1.68 billion = 0.2% of the roads program 2008 funding for north west Cork!!!


I see they're pushing Macroom - Ballyvourney quite a bit. I guess thats good, with Macroom being a dreadful bottleneck (main bridge isnt wide enough for a truck and a car), but again, should that get priority over Mallow - Croom? Tough one to call, that. I guess Macroom bottleneck is more important than the N20.

Niall1234

Haven't been on that road in ages, but isn't there a section between Mallow and Charleville which feels like you are going through a quarry ?

Awfully twisty.

E92

Hopefully Ballyvourney-Macroom will be a 2+2, now that the Government doesn't want 2+1s anymore.

Though really it should be a HQDC, if the Government's claim for balanced regional development is to be taken seriously.

Chris_533976

Niall1234 wrote: »

Haven't been on that road in ages, but isn't there a section between Mallow and Charleville which feels like you are going through a quarry ?

Awfully twisty.

Yup. It snakes round the quarry.

invincibleirish

its ridiculous the delays in Buttevant & Charleville as well as the twisty dangerous bits in and around the County borders. how are the locals (in Buttevant esp.) not up in arms with the traffic there? now im all for rail transport but this is one of the projects that the WRCs 800 million could have been spent on instead. i hate politicians.

corktina

a few years back the residents of Buttevant held a protest meeting AGAINST being by-passed....

in fairness a lot of the more recent delays are due to on-going drainage work

Chris_533976

Buttevant can go stuff their protests. Thats lunacy. Surely they'd like their village back from the traffic? And that drainage work seems to never end!!!

The preferred route is to the east of the town, further infact away than the route will be from Charleville town.

Tho this is quite an old image I'm working off, so it may not be right.

1huge1

corktina wrote: »

a few years back the residents of Buttevant held a protest meeting AGAINST being by-passed....

in fairness a lot of the more recent delays are due to on-going drainage work

What reason did the have for not wanting to be bypasses?

Chris_533976

My guess would be its a group of people living closest to the proposed route getting involved in a heated bout of ignorant self indulgent NIMBYism.

corktina

no i think it was that they thought the lack of passing trade would kill their town...poor misguided fools...(obviously a campaign led by the local shopkeepers I guess..

Chris_533976

Buttevant is one of the deadest and dingiest towns I've ever been in, no wonder they want trade

cc

i'm a frequent driver from cork to limerick and back. Last time i experimented and went via N8/M8 as far as cahir, then N24 to limerick, took me 2hrs 10mins and avoided some manic traffic in and around buttavant. (AA route planner clocks it as 2hrs 05mins, 137km distance). Can be a nice alternative.

incidently, would be great when the M8 is completed if a new motorway branched off from mitchelstown to limerick. it would mean a motorway from cork to limerick and it would be half built already if they started tomorrow....just a thought though :cool:

Chris_533976

Dont get me started on that

Cork - Limerick should go Cork - Mitchelstown - Limerick.

Mitchelstown - Portlaoise shouldnt be motorway.

Cork - Dublin should be Cork - somewhere north of Waterford - Dublin.

mysterious

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Dont get me started on that

Cork - Limerick should go Cork - Mitchelstown - Limerick.

Mitchelstown - Portlaoise shouldnt be motorway.

Cork - Dublin should be Cork - somewhere north of Waterford - Dublin.

Spot on Chris.

Come to think of it. It's actually pathetic as to why they never went along with this.

UK built their motorways in by connecting the main cities and branching motorways to feed onto the smaller cities.
M1 and M6 is the spine of the network.


If they had a multiplex at cahir and clonmel along the N24
You could have something like this
1.Limerick to waterford
2.Waterford to cork
3.Cork to limerick
vice versa.
4 the N8 then would follow onto the N76 and connect to M9
all which have direct motorway links to the rest of the network also.

500million euro could be saved, and less roads unecessary roads to be built.

corktina

I more or less agree...what a waste having an M7 and a M8.....should be dublin/limerick/cork imho...

mysterious

corktina wrote: »

I more or less agree...what a waste having an M7 and a M8.....should be dublin/limerick/cork imho...

In other countries thats what would be the way to go. Meath has three motorways. The m7/m8/m9 is not needed. one going down by waterford, or one going as you stated.


M3 should be connected to the A5 and given some proper use. Hey im making people that run the country look stupid:D

trellheim

Buttevant is one of the deadest and dingiest towns I've ever been in, no wonder they want trade

I think if morons like the poster of that continue to think in this fashion, see his/her/its earlier posts on the topic, then he should go to the main street in Buttevant or wander into a pub or too and share his opinions.

invincibleirish

trellheim wrote: »

I think if morons like the poster of that continue to think in this fashion, see his/her/its earlier posts on the topic, then he should go to the main street in Buttevant or wander into a pub or too and share his opinions.

However he's not wrong Buttevant is dingy. at the moment Mallow is as far as a lot of people will go if they are commuting into Cork, build DC up to Buttevant & Charleville and the commuter belt is extended, much in the same way Mitchelstown, Fermoy & Rathcormac have had lots of new housing developments with the advent of the N8/M8. this is an example of urban sprawl.

At least Buttevant & Charleville have a railway line. some Mallow commuter trains to go slightly further north in the years to come?not likely.

corktina

ditto Invincibleirishes post really...

some services on the railway north of Mallow do in fact call to Charleville...I cant imagine why the Buttevant poeple arent yelling for a new station, especially as it is quite conveniant for the town centre (such as it is..)

Victor

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Tho this is quite an old image I'm working off, so it may not be right.

Did you mean to post a link?

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Cork - Limerick should go Cork - Mitchelstown - Limerick. Mitchelstown - Portlaoise shouldnt be motorway. Cork - Dublin should be Cork - somewhere north of Waterford - Dublin.

Cork - Mitchelstown - Limerick has the slight matter of mountains in the way.

They could easily have done Cork-Mallow-Limerick-Dublin and Cork-Youghal-Waterford and omitted a motorway or two. There was a suggestion that the M9 follow the N77 in Kilkenny, but the Carlow people went "waaaaaaaaaa".

Chris_533976

Victor wrote: »

Did you mean to post a link?

I better not. Not sure if this one is supposed to really be public domain yet

Carawaystick

Victor wrote: »

Did you mean to post a link?

Cork - Mitchelstown - Limerick has the slight matter of mountains in the way.

Cork Mitchelstown is being built mountains or not.
Mitchelstown to Hospital route would pass through about 3km of steep valley between Knocknaceol and Balyarthur hill are along the route of R513- tough but not impossible to build. highest land is less than 170m compared to kilworth at >200m altitude.

1huge1

Carawaystick wrote: »

Cork Mitchelstown is being built mountains or not.
Mitchelstown to Hospital route would pass through about 3km of steep valley between Knocknaceol and Balyarthur hill are along the route of R513- tough but not impossible to build. highest land is less than 170m compared to kilworth at >200m altitude.

Are you saing theres plans to have a motorway near hospital (my place of living...) interesting indeed

Victor

1huge1 wrote: »

Are you saing theres plans to have a motorway near hospital (my place of living...) interesting indeed

No, merely that it might be an idea.

Carawaystick, in that case, see pic.

Chris_533976

Tiny update, but a site office to make detailled plans for the Mallow - Croom section was set up in March 08.

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote: »

No, merely that it might be an idea.

Carawaystick, in that case, see pic.

Well it's certainly a good concept - it uses a least cost to builder pattern. Presuming that the Mitchelstown to Limerick section would be designated as the M20, it would double as a replacement for both the N20 and N24 (Cahir to Limerick). The Cahir to North of Waterford section would possibly be designated as the M24 and if it was to be of motorway standard, it might act as a fast alternative to the N25 (Waterford to Cork). That would be especially true if the M24 was extended east to the proposed New Ross By-pass, thereby creating a very attractive alternative for Rosslare Europort traffic. The New Ross By-pass itself could be scaled up to motorway standard (as far as the N30 junction), and the M25 could easily be extended northwards to link in. Now, that would be money well spent!

Regards!

mysterious

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Well it's certainly a good concept - it uses a least cost to builder pattern. Presuming that the Mitchelstown to Limerick section would be designated as the M20, it would double as a replacement for both the N20 and N24 (Cahir to Limerick). The Cahir to North of Waterford section would possibly be designated as the M24 and if it was to be of motorway standard, it might act as a fast alternative to the N25 (Waterford to Cork). That would be especially true if the M24 was extended east to the proposed New Ross By-pass, thereby creating a very attractive alternative for Rosslare Europort traffic. The New Ross By-pass itself could be scaled up to motorway standard (as far as the N30 junction), and the M25 could easily be extended northwards to link in. Now, that would be money well spent!

Regards!

You could even put the Limerick routed near cahir and still go along m24, but have slips to go south for cork, as a multiplex there. rather than go all the way directly to Mitchellstown.

Also I'm really stopped in my tracks as to why the facking government can't seem to see the money savings or the lesser time to build a complete motorway system with less than half of the current road building snaking there are doing atm... oh well to late now.. AGAIN

Victor

mysterious wrote: »

You could even put the Limerick routed near cahir and still go along m24, but have slips to go south for cork, as a multiplex there. rather than go all the way directly to Mitchellstown.

Limerick-Cahir-Cork isn't very efficient.

1huge1

Oh that would be a dream come true, I live right on that route and as easy as it is to get to cork now with mitchelstown being only 20mins away, but a motorway to both cities...

I doubt the department would ever even consider this considering there current stance towards the N20

Chris_533976

Wild (and hopeful) guesswork from me says scheme will go to CPO in late 2009 with construction start in mid 2010 with opening in late 2011/2012.

invincibleirish

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Wild (and hopeful) guesswork from me says scheme will go to CPO in late 2009 with construction start in mid 2010 with opening in late 2011/2012.

Oh i dont know about that, what with public finances deteriorating, spending cuts anyone? even though there were nice shiny Transport 21 ads in the papers on Sunday, and funding is supposedly ringfenced, can anyone really believe that road buildimg deserves priority over other areas of Gov. funding?

Cowens gonna get you N20!

http://images.ireland.com/focus/election_2002/picsarchive/brian_cowen1.jpg

Chris_533976

I think they'll still push the roads as they're the governments happy little 'we are making progress' thing, unlike the HSE or the schools which you can sink any amount of money into and not see such a massive difference.

Zoney

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I think they'll still push the roads as they're the governments happy little 'we are making progress' thing, unlike the HSE or the schools which you can sink any amount of money into and not see such a massive difference.

Well, I don't know about schools. I think most people would notice their kids not having to be cramped 30+ at a time into damp rat-infested decades old prefabs that make school yards a distant memory.

However, I agree that the govt. seem to have their hearts set on the roads programme above all else, above public transport, health, education, justice/policing, etc. etc.

I think we'll see the programme continue, but slowed down. The way that the 2001-2003 post dot-com dip was a factor in pushing the interurbans from 2006 completion to 2010 completion.

dmeehan

invincibleirish wrote: »

Oh i dont know about that, what with public finances deteriorating, spending cuts anyone? even though there were nice shiny Transport 21 ads in the papers on Sunday, and funding is supposedly ringfenced, can anyone really believe that road buildimg deserves priority over other areas of Gov. funding?

Cowens gonna get you N20!

http://images.ireland.com/focus/election_2002/picsarchive/brian_cowen1.jpg

i also saw a T21 advert on tv. I still dont get why they are advertising it, is there an election soon?

Limerick91

2 points

Does anybody know when the works in and around Buttavent will be completed.

Secondly here is a copy of an email I received from the NRA regarding the N20

"Thank you for your email.

The Government's national transport infrastructure investment programme 'Transport 21' and the National Development Plan (NDP), 2007 - 2013, provide the policy framework for the Authority's activities for the development of the national roads network. Under these plans, the initial focus of the Authority's programme of works is concentrated on the completion of the five major inter-urban routes linking Dublin to Cork, Waterford, Limerick, Galway and Northern Ireland (via the M1) to motorway/high quality dual carriageway standard. The plans anticipate the completion of these strategic routes in their entirety by the end of 2010. Projects on these routes will, accordingly, receive priority for funding in the period to 2010, with the bulk of the remaining funding available being directed towards construction works on other routes to which we are already contractually committed or which require early attention, taking account of the specific provisions of Transport 21 and the NDP.



Having regard to the above, the timeframe for projects on other routes has not yet been determined. The provision of funding to advance the Mallow - Croom road scheme to construction will be kept under review taking account of the situation generally within the national roads programme, including demands on available finances arising from the specific objective to complete the major inter-urban routes."