when did we massacre all the protestants

gurramok

To add to Flex's post about Ne Tamerre, a part of my family was a result of this.

My grandfathers family who were working class Church Of Ireland from Irishtown did not suffer any recriminations on independence and indeed flourished alongside their Catholic neighbours for decades where both treated each other equally as Irish people.

It was the Ne Tamerre that contributed to their decline in numbers along with a bad economy!

Another factor in the decline in the Protestant population in Dublin was the number of families of English soldiers that were based there. They along with some wealthier Unionists from the likes of Rathmines/Dun Laoghaire upped sticks on independence of their own accord to NI and England. Of course, fear would of played a part as reactionary Catholics would want revenge for hundreds of years of suferring but it was not the only factor.

Of course, things might have been different in the countryside but i tell the above from an urban perspective.

Regarding today's attitudes, i think its just a lack of education. The likes of Paisley has destroyed the reputation of Protestants through bigotry as most young people grew up seeing himself spouting his offensive crap on the tv.
People down in ROI need to remember some of our great leaders who fought for us were prods and they would be rolling in their graves at the behaviour of loyalists who hijacked the faith for their own political ends.

ateam

Protestant gets a capital P.

conchubhar1

I see no historical evidence for widescale killing of protestants

however, there is evidence of widescale killing of everyone, mostly catholics, in ireland during the 16th 17th 18th 19th and 20th.

for a large part there is written proof that unarmed and non combatants were to be kille and the food source to be targetted in rebellions during the 16th and 17th century.

cherrypicker555

conchubhar1 wrote: »

I see no historical evidence for widescale killing of protestants

however, there is evidence of widescale killing of everyone, mostly catholics, in ireland during the 16th 17th 18th 19th and 20th.

for a large part there is written proof that unarmed and non combatants were to be kille and the food source to be targetted in rebellions during the 16th and 17th century.

Post your proof.

cherrypicker555

gurramok wrote: »

To add to Flex's post about Ne Tamerre, a part of my family was a result of this.

My grandfathers family who were working class Church Of Ireland from Irishtown did not suffer any recriminations on independence and indeed flourished alongside their Catholic neighbours for decades where both treated each other equally as Irish people.

It was the Ne Tamerre that contributed to their decline in numbers along with a bad economy!

Another factor in the decline in the Protestant population in Dublin was the number of families of English soldiers that were based there. They along with some wealthier Unionists from the likes of Rathmines/Dun Laoghaire upped sticks on independence of their own accord to NI and England. Of course, fear would of played a part as reactionary Catholics would want revenge for hundreds of years of suferring but it was not the only factor.

Of course, things might have been different in the countryside but i tell the above from an urban perspective.

Regarding today's attitudes, i think its just a lack of education. The likes of Paisley has destroyed the reputation of Protestants through bigotry as most young people grew up seeing himself spouting his offensive crap on the tv.
People down in ROI need to remember some of our great leaders who fought for us were prods and they would be rolling in their graves at the behaviour of loyalists who hijacked the faith for their own political ends.

"The likes of Paisley have destroyed the reputation of Protestants"

Amongst whom ?

gurramok

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

"The likes of Paisley have destroyed the reputation of Protestants"

Amongst whom ?

Amongst their 'own' and amongst Catholic folk.

Of course, he's reformed a bit nowadays and all is hunky dory. Turn the clock back 40 odd years before power sharing, his demonizing of anything that was Catholic brought shame to non-sectarian Protestants.

drakshug

gurramok wrote: »

Amongst their 'own' and amongst Catholic folk.

Of course, he's reformed a bit nowadays and all is hunky dory. Turn the clock back 40 odd years before power sharing, his demonizing of anything that was Catholic brought shame to non-sectarian Protestants.

As a non sectarian Protestant, I'd prefer if you'd change your comment to....
The likes of Paisley destroyed the reputation of unionists.
I'd also point out that actions by SF haven't exactly enhanced the republican cause - g Adams - payments to bombers. Any right minded person must see that the recently announced compensation scheme is a travesty and smacks of political and financial opportunism.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

Regarding today's attitudes, i think its just a lack of education. The likes of Paisley has destroyed the reputation of Protestants through bigotry as most young people grew up seeing himself spouting his offensive crap on the tv.
People down in ROI need to remember some of our great leaders who fought for us were prods and they would be rolling in their graves at the behaviour of loyalists who hijacked the faith for their own political ends.

Am I the only one that actually takes offence at that statement?

Would you consider all Muslims to be Suicide bombers because of a few idiots, or all Catholics to be Paedophiles? Of course not. What you are demonstrating there is something that “Protestants” experience quite regularly in this country, the feeling that they are some sort of minority lunatic fringe. I know the pope doesn’t consider us to be “Proper” Christians, but I didn’t think anyone really listened to him anymore.

“Protestants” as you call them actually covers pretty much every Christian church outside of Roman Catholic and Orthodox and there are a lot. There are literally millions of “Protestants” around the world the vast vast majority of who have never heard of Ian Paisley and would have absolutely no time for his antics and bigoted comments.

Ian Paisley is, actually, the head of the “Free Presbyterian” Church which is as far removed from Anglicans or Methodists as it is from Catholicism.

cherrypicker555

gurramok wrote: »

Amongst their 'own' and amongst Catholic folk.

Of course, he's reformed a bit nowadays and all is hunky dory. Turn the clock back 40 odd years before power sharing, his demonizing of anything that was Catholic brought shame to non-sectarian Protestants.

Is that why one third of Catholics in NI want to remain part of the United Kingdom.


Criticising the Catholic churches role in keep the republic western Europes most socially backward country for decades is reasonable criticism.

As one of its leaders said, it was a Catholic country for a catholic people.

cherrypicker555

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Am I the only one that actually takes offence at that statement?

Would you consider all Muslims to be Suicide bombers because of a few idiots, or all Catholics to be Paedophiles? Of course not. What you are demonstrating there is something that “Protestants” experience quite regularly in this country, the feeling that they are some sort of minority lunatic fringe. I know the pope doesn’t consider us to be “Proper” Christians, but I didn’t think anyone really listened to him anymore.

“Protestants” as you call them actually covers pretty much every Christian church outside of Roman Catholic and Orthodox and there are a lot. There are literally millions of “Protestants” around the world the vast vast majority of who have never heard of Ian Paisley and would have absolutely no time for his antics and bigoted comments.

Ian Paisley is, actually, the head of the “Free Presbyterian” Church which is as far removed from Anglicans or Methodists as it is from Catholicism.

Or "Black protestants" as they were referred to in the republic

Most dont know the differences.

Shutuplaura

Hey, I know the difference, the CofI are the ones with the doubled barrelled names right?

And the Presbyterians bless themselves backwards or something.;)

gurramok

drakshug wrote: »

As a non sectarian Protestant, I'd prefer if you'd change your comment to....
The likes of Paisley destroyed the reputation of unionists.
I'd also point out that actions by SF haven't exactly enhanced the republican cause - g Adams - payments to bombers. Any right minded person must see that the recently announced compensation scheme is a travesty and smacks of political and financial opportunism.

Eh, whats wrong with it?

In case you did not know, Paisley is/was a fundamentalist Protestant who is/was a sectarian bigot. Prods i know are not proud of that and despise the man for using bigotry to further his political aims.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Am I the only one that actually takes offence at that statement?

I was referring to Irish Protestants, not English Protestants as per topic. Irish Protestants since the troubles have had to deal with fundamentalism on their side which put a slur on their faith to Irish Catholics and the ordinary English who want nothing to do with his style of worship. (similar to the mad bishops on the Irish Catholic side pre-80's if you know what i mean)

You're from England, i know how the English over there grew up in a different environment without fundamentalism and bigotry. My cousins are COE, one is a COE Minister in Leicester which is a religious mix of a city where all mostly get on.

Would you consider all Muslims to be Suicide bombers because of a few idiots, or all Catholics to be Paedophiles? Of course not. What you are demonstrating there is something that “Protestants” experience quite regularly in this country, the feeling that they are some sort of minority lunatic fringe. I know the pope doesn’t consider us to be “Proper” Christians, but I didn’t think anyone really listened to him anymore.

See above. Irish Protestants. Most down South do not want to be associated with Paisley.

“Protestants” as you call them actually covers pretty much every Christian church outside of Roman Catholic and Orthodox and there are a lot. There are literally millions of “Protestants” around the world the vast vast majority of who have never heard of Ian Paisley and would have absolutely no time for his antics and bigoted comments.

Thread is about Irish Protestants hence your point is not relevant as its not discussed!

Ian Paisley is, actually, the head of the “Free Presbyterian” Church which is as far removed from Anglicans or Methodists as it is from Catholicism.

Yes true. But he gets elected by the vast majority of Protestants through the ballot box hence my referral to where he mixed religious bigotry and politics which should be a no-no.

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Is that why one third of Catholics in NI want to remain part of the United Kingdom.

Criticising the Catholic churches role in keep the republic western Europes most socially backward country for decades is reasonable criticism.

As one of its leaders said, it was a Catholic country for a catholic people.

Point 1, thats your opinion unless you interviewed all 800,000 up there.
Point 2 i agree. My point is Paisley 's religious views are aiken to a Catholics bishops views from the 50's. (ask person 'living in sin' or any gay person for example)
Point 3, the same was said by the first Prime Minister of NI.

scouse1990

Any chance people can lay off on the term Prod, I find it very offensive as it is usually used by people who are trying to demonise/dehumise an entire section of the community.

Am not sure that Paisley has ruined the reputation of Protestants (I assume you mean Irish Protestants here?) - as was previously pointed out he is a Presbytarian which is very different from the Church of Ireland or, even, Methodists.

Just as an aside, I first heard the term Black Proddy when I was 10. I had been in Ireland for 1 week. It was the first time I realised their was a distinction between churches. I must remember to hunt the man down who said it........

drakshug

Prod. I hate that term.
Half the people would be up in arms if the word "Tim" was mentioned but they think it is ok to use the sectarian term Prod.
And Gurramok. You missed my point entirely. Then again you seem to have missed a few people's points. I know exactly who Paisley is but I don't consider him representative of Protestants as a whole which you seem to think he is.
He doesn't represent me and hasn't besmirched my church but he has dragged unionism through the mud.
You nicely avoided the compensation/SF point, by the way. I suppose they are ok in your books

gurramok

I had stated 'The likes of Paisley has destroyed the reputation of Protestants through bigotry as most young people grew up seeing himself spouting his offensive crap on the tv.'

I did not say Paisley is representatiive of Protestants.(I won't use that other term then as it offends)
You would of always hear Paisley as leader of Unionists always harping on about the 'Protestant people of Ulster' in his politics, that in my opinion has put a slur on the faith in the preception held by Catholics of it as he forwarded the view that he was the only leader of Protestants(which we know is baloney) with is downright bigotry. If you are old enough, you will know what i mean.

It is wrong and it just shows he used religion to further his political aims by sitting in govt with his sworn 'Roman Catholic' enemies. A hypocrite the man is.

You nicely avoided the compensation/SF point, by the way. I suppose they are ok in your books

Was that point directed at me?
The topic is about Protestants, not about some compensation scheme. Nice jumping the gun by the way.

Fratton Fred

I would argue that there were plenty of catholics who were quite happy to label all non catholics as prods and let mr paisley stand up as a shining example of what "prods" are really like. Don't forget iain paisley was probably holdibg archbishop mcquad up as a good example of how bigoted catholics were.

drakshug

My point is that Paisley, bigotted buffoon that he is, does not hold a monopoly on hypocrisy. I've found that many are quick to play the bigotry card whilst conveniently ignoring the hypocrisy, bigotry and tribalism of the other camp. Both sides are as bad as the other and as a "prod" and a non-unionist, married to a catholic, I find it all very sad.
Oh yeah, I was born in the sixties so I do know who all the bigots are... From both sides.

DAIRYMAN

Just reading over this thread I can't help thinking that the attitude towards the Protestant community depended on the area. We are a C of I family. In our area my fathers side have always got on well with all sides of hte community. I think that the more sectarian siide started with the school bus in the 1960s when separate comunities went to separate schools by bus. The children then were separated. When my father went to shcool in hte 1940s every one walked to school together and went to their separate schools when they got to the village. They then walked home together. I recently heard a story about my Grandfather in the War of Independence. He was walking up his road past the Parish Church in the dark when he was passed by a Flying Squad on bikes. No One said anything. We later discovered that the locals were asked by the stranger in their midst who he was, his background and was he safe. As the Flying Squad vouched for my Grandfather all went on their way. That night my Grandfather knew who all the Flying Squad were and one of them told him what happened years later.
I think that at the turn of the last century there were two classes - The Landlord and the rest. Ok so being a Protestant gave you some priviledges, but life was still hard. So one got the land. What option was there for the rest of the family? The Church, Army or boat. It has never changed. Therefore the population of each community stayed static at best. Mixed marriages were and fortunately now are a less contentious issue. It was hard for one partner to agree that his family be brought up with a different culture. It was probably easier just to bail out. In the South Protestants I think would always have been more Nationalistc in their outlook especially in terms of Home Rule. As a previous post Archbishop McQuaid probably did more damage in establish the RC dominance in our early constitution. We sadly also have other things to consider after the publications of wearlier this week. (This will be continued later)

conchubhar1

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Post your proof.

colm lennon's 16th century ireland for one

did a course in college on 16=17th century ireland and europe that focused on religion and state

of course both sides suffered losses

Denerick

'We' (Not sure how much thought went into the use of that word) did not kill any Protestants. Our ancestors did. Bit pointless worrying or feeling guilty about something our Great Great Grandparents did/(In most cases)didn't do.

gerrydonnelly

I have the Patrick Bishop & Eamonn Mallie book "The Provisional IRA" in front of me but can not find any reference to Protestant IRA Volunteers in it, however I do remember reading a book in the early 1980's about the history of rent & rates strikes (withholding of payments) in Belfast in the 1920's and 1930's. It documented the working class struggle to improve living conditions etc and I definetly remember it saying that there was an IRA company consisting entirely of Protestants in Belfast in the 1930's who fought for a Socialist Ireland, unfortunately the evils of sectarianism put an end to such solidarity.
If anyone can name the book to which I refer I'd be grateful.

Shutuplaura wrote: »

Yeah, that little nuggett has been harder to track down than I thought, I remeber reading it in a book years ago - Eamon O'Maille's Book on the IRA, tried to find it on amazon but I couldn't so perhaps I have the authors name wrong - On Google I did find instances of Prot. members of the IRA - not many admittedly as any search that includes IRA brings up a wide variety of information. Eg search for Noel Lyttle who was a prot. INLA member

Regarding the religous mix of the RIC - This is common enough information, most history books should hve something on it. Wikipedia for example has the following quote, "The force was predominantly Roman Catholic, although there were fewer Catholics in the higher ranks."

The wikipedia page has more info - if you don't like using wikipedia as a source have a look around the net or in a comprehensive book about the troubles.

LordSutch

In reply to the Opening Post 'When did we massacre all the protestants' I say the Decree Ne temere did the job far better than the IRA could ever have done. The perfect ethnic cleansing tool with no blood, just a subtle drip drip decline in Prods after each & every mixed marriage!

The 'Decree Ne temere' demanded that each & every offspring from a mixed marriage was to be brought up a Roman Catholic, which is exactly what happened right up until the 1970s, and if you think about it for one moment, its scary to think that each & every mixed marriage ended the protestant line right there & then > while accellerating the Roman Catholic birth rate at the same time!

Still a few prods around though, about 2% of the population I think?

thecornerboy

vesp wrote: »

There was never "automatically privileged jobs" for every Protestant - some were very poor, some did not have great jobs etc There was a change after independence all right, when the librarian got sacked from her job in Mayo because she was a Protestant, sparking the controversy in the Dail when DeValera advocated job discrimination against protestants etc. In the 40's and 50's how many Guards were Protestants ?

Presumably Dev's hatred for Protestants was put aside when he practically appointed a Protestant as the first President. De Valera's successor as President, incidentally, was a London born Protestant.

I and nobody else would deny that there attacks on Protestant carried out by extremists in this country. It's stating the obvious to say they were wrong. However they do not reflect on the State or the history of this country, they were also concentrated in border areas. You seem to be trying to portray the southern Protestant population having existed on a level somewhere between the level of an American agricultural slave and a Berlin Jewish doctor circa 1936. That's absolutely wrong. Influential Protestant institutions and economic privilege lived on just fine through the period from British rule through to De Valera's era.

Shutuplaura

gerrydonnelly wrote: »

I have the Patrick Bishop & Eamonn Mallie book "The Provisional IRA" in front of me but can not find any reference to Protestant IRA Volunteers in it, however I do remember reading a book in the early 1980's about the history of rent & rates strikes (withholding of payments) in Belfast in the 1920's and 1930's. It documented the working class struggle to improve living conditions etc and I definetly remember it saying that there was an IRA company consisting entirely of Protestants in Belfast in the 1930's who fought for a Socialist Ireland, unfortunately the evils of sectarianism put an end to such solidarity.
If anyone can name the book to which I refer I'd be grateful.

Hmm, I stand corrected. It had a green cover if thats any help..

gerrydonnelly

Shutuplaura,

You're thinking of the right book. A big green hardback by Bishop and Mallie, first published in 1987. There is a chapter on the IRA in the 1920-30's but most of the book focusses on the PIRA from 1969 on.

The book which I read about the Protestant IRA volunteers may have been an earlier one by Eamonn Mallie. If my memory serves it was about the creation of the 6 counties in 1922 and described the housing and general social conditions of the working class in the new state (some of the worst in Europe at the time) which caused so many working people to come to together and fight to improve things, hence, the Protestant IRA company.

Does it ring a bell with anyone?

philologos

gurramok: It's not that Irish Protestants don't want to be associated with Paisley, it's that we aren't associated with Ian Paisley.

My mother was a Presbyterian, my dad is an Anglican (CofI), my mother joined the CofI after their wedding. The Republic was where I was born, it is where my national loyalties lie. My spiritual loyalties lie with Jesus Christ. As for what happens in the political shape of this country, that has to do with legislators, not with my faith.

Still a few prods around though, about 2% of the population I think?

According to the CSO - 2006, all Protestants amount to about 5%. The Church of Ireland amounts to 2%, then you have Presbyterians, non-denominational Christians, Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostal / Apostolic / Evangelical.