when did we massacre all the protestants

Victor

InFront wrote:

New York, Boston, Australia and Ibiza?

vesp

brianthebard wrote:

Vesp stated that the protestant population of the 26 counties prior to independance was 10%. What you've posted is (presumably, since I cannot see it stated otherwise) of the 32 counties.

No its not ; Victor kindly posted the CSO link which shows the 26 counties.

vesp

Hagar wrote:

If religious intolerance towards Protestants was so rife in Ireland why did they even come here? Surely they would not have come to Ireland if they thought that they would be unsafe.

You are missing the point again Hagar and are either being ignorant of history or else a troll. As I explained to you earlier, these islands were a safe haven from those fleeing from religous persecution in mainland Europe at the time. The Huguenots did not come here 85 years ago, they came hundreds of years ago. Do not forget that in centuries gone by that Roman Catholic authorities killed, tortured and intimidated tens of thousands of non-catholics in catholic France, Spain etc

vesp

luckat wrote:

Protestants in Ireland had historically always been England-looking - their children were sent to English boarding schools, and London was their cultural node.

I know of many protestant families who had very humble living standards in early 20th century Ireland - and the vast majority of Protestants in Ireland never sent their children to English boarding schools. Some went to national school only in bare feet, never mind secondary school or boarding school. Maybe in Dublin some people were "England looking" as you say, but you cannot say that about everyone ...in rural areas Irish Protestant farming families for example had little to do with England, never visited there etc etc....and of course never watched Man. Utd or Cornation St.

Many Catholics also went to work in England in the 20th century.....just like some Protestants. You cannot blame the % decline in the Irish Protestant population in the 26 counties on emigration alone. The murders and intimidation had an effect as well.

Dontico

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Until recently protestants in Ireland would have been a sub-set of the greater set: "unIrish". The greater set included intellectuals, writers, agnostics, atheists, dissidents, sinners. All were made to feel unwanted. Until when?? Whisper the answer! Until Jack Charlton!!!

since when were writers and intellectuals considered "unirish"?

Jackie laughlin

Dontico,
Not all writers of course; just the likes of Joyce, Behan, O'Brien etc. Anti-intellectualism was a feature of of Catholic/Nationalist Ireland until relatively recently. Working class, urban, poor, foreign-game playing people too found that kind of Ireland very hostile.

randylonghorn

Terry Dooley's book is useful on the changing climate for Irish protestants, though it mainly concentrates on the landed families, of course.

Dooley, Terence (2001) The decline of the big house in Ireland : a study of Irish landed families, 1860-1960

Hagar

vesp wrote:

You are missing the point again Hagar and are either being ignorant of history or else a troll. As I explained to you earlier,

I am neither ignorant of history nor a troll. Give over with the personal abuse, it's not welcome. As for explaining to me, that is not what you are doing at all. All you are doing is expressing a view no more valid than any other poster around here. To think you are doing more is pure arrogance.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

D'ya think?

As per Mike's post I could be a Huguenot gone back to my roots.

Strange that the Huguenots sought safety in Ireland from oppression by Catholics don't you think? Why didn't they go to England I wonder?

50,000 of them did, with many coming to Ireland as part of the plantations.

Wikipedia has a very good article on the Huguenots.

vesp

Hagar wrote:

As for explaining to me, that is not what you are doing at all.

Then why can you not understand the facts ? I explained that these islands were a safe haven from those fleeing from ( Catholic ) religous persecution in mainland Europe at the time. The Huguenots did not come here 85 years ago, they came hundreds of years ago. You seem to think they came in the 20th century. You wrote " If religious intolerance towards Protestants was so rife in Ireland why did they even come here? Surely they would not have come to Ireland if they thought that they would be unsafe."

:rolleyes:

Hagar

I'm sorry, ban me if you must but I can only take this guy in very small doses. Vesp, you are back on my ignore list so don't bother adressing me further. The only reason you were off it was because I had to watch you when you came spamming one of my forums. My apologies to the mods and other posters for this off topic post.

vesp

Hagar, I did not spam one of your forums so please do not go off topic.

As you did not seem to know if the Huguenots came to Ireland in the 20th century ( post independence ) or in previous centuries, I thought I better clarify this basic fact for you, as it was extremely relevant to your point.

brianthebard

You know he's not reading your posts any more right?

vesp

I do not really care if he is or not, and will not address him anymore. However, it is important he was corrected on the above.

luckat

I don't think it's correct to say that Catholics were traditionally anti-intellectual - there was a Gaelic intellectual tradition that continued for hundreds or thousands of years; there were links with European intellectual thought. They may, however, have been anti-west-British-intellectual, or anti- any work that was perceived as such.

Hagar, as to how the Protestants came to Ireland, take a look at the Wiki on the Plantations of Ireland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland

Unfortunately, the Protestant planters came in, as the song goes, as "the merciless Scots with their creed and their swords, with hate in their bosom and love in their words".

The historical effect of this left Ireland divided for hundreds of years.

But coming back to the decline of Protestants in Ireland in the 20th century - it seems to me that it was a complex of recurring and interacting events like a landslide: the slaughter of the Great War, the change in government that meant there weren't automatically privileged jobs, the Catholic church's cruel rules on the children of 'mixed' marriages being brought up Catholic - and even some people changing religion because of belief.

It's kind of beside the point at this stage, as religion (hopefully) withers away to the point where only the true relationship between one's spirit and the world is in question, and we don't have to fight over whose delusional beliefs are more real.

vesp

luckat wrote:

But coming back to the decline of Protestants in Ireland in the 20th century - it seems to me that it was a complex of recurring and interacting events like a landslide:
the slaughter of the Great War,

Many Catholics got "slaughtered" as you put it, in the Great war too.

luckat wrote:

the change in government that meant there weren't automatically privileged jobs,

There was never "automatically privileged jobs" for every Protestant - some were very poor, some did not have great jobs etc There was a change after independence all right, when the librarian got sacked from her job in Mayo because she was a Protestant, sparking the controversy in the Dail when DeValera advocated job discrimination against protestants etc. In the 40's and 50's how many Guards were Protestants ?

luckat wrote:

the Catholic church's cruel rules on the children of 'mixed' marriages being brought up Catholic

Ye hit the nail on the head there as one good reason

luckat wrote:

- and even some people changing religion because of belief.

Or because of the promise that the Catholic partner had to make in the case of mixed marriages ? Nowadays, of course some Catholics are leaving the R.C. church because of "belief".

Victor

vesp wrote:

There was never "automatically privileged jobs" for every Protestant - some were very poor, some did not have great jobs etc

However, those with "privileged jobs" or other privileged position were much more likely to be Protestant.

vesp

Victor wrote:

However, those with "privileged jobs" or other privileged position were much more likely to be Protestant.

What do you mean by "privileged jobs" , and when ? In the 30's and 40's etc "privileged jobs" I suppose included jobs as librarians and Gardai which precious few Protestants got. Throughout the centuries there were and are some poor Protestants. Not all could read and write, not all had a "Protestant work ethic", not all set up their own businesses and worked hard. Catholic emancipation was well established long before 1916.

Shutuplaura

vesp, quick question - why can't you explain the drop in the protestant population to economic migration and the first world war. You say that you know many a poor protestant family - then surely economic migration would have been as much a fact of life for them as any one else here. This and the fact that protestants traditionally have lower birth rates must surely account for large part of the fall. Anyway, as those statistics show, the protestant population few continuously from independance until recently so you could hardly blame the IRA for that.
Also, given there must have been a fair few protestant British administrators/military over here for the 1911 census, that would have given those figures a bit of a skew? I surely think so.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

vesp, quick question - why can't you explain the drop in the protestant population to economic migration and the first world war.

"economic migration and the first world war" - you think Roman Catholics did not emigrate as well , or were not killed in the first world war ?

Shutuplaura wrote:

You say that you know many a poor protestant family - then surely economic migration would have been as much a fact of life for them as any one else here.

I wrote "Throughout the centuries there were and are some poor Protestants." which is true. Some did migrate, just as some Catholics migrated. What you do not mention are the innocent protestants murdered and intimidated 85 / 90 years ago etc. Or the fact the country was a cold house for Protestants in the decades following independence, or the official lack of parity of esteem for their religion when in mixed marriages.

Shutuplaura

"What you do not mention are the innocent protestants murdered and intimidated 85 / 90 years ago etc."

My god!! I did mention it - I mentioned it when I said that it doesn't seem to have happened. It surprises me that for all your adamant insistance that it did occur you never cite any reason why, except for a drop in numbers post independance, which as I've said is irrelevant as the population as a whole declined for most of the states existance. And you haven't refuted my point about emigration, a scourge that effected both every religion equally.

By the way, the jewish population of ireland has been falling since 1920 too yet they haven't been harassed by the state.

The population as a whole may have been ignorant towards protestants but the state wasn't exactly a cold house for them. The first president was a protestant and at his funeral the government did show up - although it was sheer ignorance that kept many outside in their cars. Protestant religous leaders also were consulted about the consitution in the same way as McQuaid.

You vesp, (and I'm sorry to pick on you bt really you are not exactly above it so I might as well) who does like harping on about it, show me if this happened on any significant or systamatic scale.

Shutuplaura

one more thing, just found this quote from you in another thread - the one on Bobby Sands in case you've forgotten:

"In the overall scale of things, and while no governments - just like society - were ever perfect , over the past few generations, no."

Are you just a contrarian?

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

"What you do not mention are the innocent protestants murdered and intimidated 85 / 90 years ago etc."

My god!! I did mention it - I mentioned it when I said that it doesn't seem to have happened.

You did not mention it in the post I was commenting on. And yes, of course extremist Republicans murdered Protestants in those troubled times. And they sometimes burnt them out and intimidated them.

Shutuplaura wrote:

It surprises me that for all your adamant insistance that it did occur you never cite any reason why, except for a drop in numbers post independance, which as I've said is irrelevant as the population as a whole declined for most of the states existance.

The population as a whole may have been ignorant towards protestants but the state wasn't exactly a cold house for them.

I wrote " There was a change after independence all right, when the librarian got sacked from her job in Mayo because she was a Protestant, sparking the controversy in the Dail when DeValera advocated job discrimination against protestants etc. In the 40's and 50's how many Guards were Protestants ? "

Shutuplaura wrote:

The first president was a protestant and at his funeral the government did show up - although it was sheer ignorance that kept many outside in their cars.

At funerals of Protestants in that era it was usually the priest who went to the gate of the church and forbid his flock going in and paying their respects.
When a Protestant met a Catholic and fell in love, look at the pressure put to bring the children up Catholics etc....never mind the Catholic partner having to promise to try to convert the non-Catholic. Ever hear of the Fethard-on-Sea boycott ?

jongore

luckat wrote:

The economic war imposed by England also changed things - many Protestants just moved to England, perhaps having less commitment to Ireland, or perhaps just having more opportunity to leave.

Protestants in Ireland had historically always been England-looking - their children were sent to English boarding schools, and London was their cultural node.

O.K first things first, historically in the south the protestants were very pro republican, as has been pointed out for a small minority they had large numbers of leaders in Irelands many rebellions so you cannot just say that they where English facing.

Their commitment to a free Ireland has always been strong and they considered theselves Irish not English. As with a lot of people you are mixing up unionest and protestant, one does not always go with the other.

One of the main reasons for the fall off in the % of protastents is actually very simple. Catholics in the 30s, 40s, 50s & 60s tended to have large families (thanks to the popes ruling on contrecption, while protestents did not). Thus the percentage of catholics vs protestents changed.

Shutuplaura

You are right vesp I'm sorry, I didn't mention it in that specific post. Silly me, I didn't provide a quick re-cap at the beinging of each post I made, I didn't realise that it was required. If you need a recap of the salient points of my argument just PM me later.

Ah yes, the priest at the gates driving catholics away from protestant churches - hang on I'll ask my mum....No, she said that never happened around here. Perhaps your part of the country though. I did by the way mention Fethard-on-Sea when I said such apaling acts of ignorance were the exception rather than the rule. The Mayo librarian was another awful incident which stands out because it was so rare - and in that case the poor woman was found n equal job in Dublin.

The IRA burned down many houses but concentrated on the houses of its real enemies whatever their religion - it was fighting for its life and contrary to Hart wasn't interested in sectarian vendettas - not on a wide scale anyway. incidentially, the Belfast IRA had a protestant company at some stage in its existance - check it out in google and you'll probably find evidence.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

The Mayo librarian was another awful incident which stands out because it was so rare .

It was so rare because very few Protestants had jobs like that in Ireland in the first place. Even 30 or 40 years ago there were very few Gardai for example. Its all changed this last few decades of course.

Shutuplaura wrote:

The IRA burned down many houses but concentrated on the houses of its real enemies whatever their religion - it was fighting for its life and contrary to Hart wasn't interested in sectarian vendettas - not on a wide scale anyway. .

"not on a wide scale anyway" I agree that the majority of Protestants kept their mouths shut and their heads low and were not affected - but some innocent Protestants were murdered.

Shutuplaura wrote:

incidentially, the Belfast IRA had a protestant company at some stage in its existance - check it out in google and you'll probably find evidence.

I think if you google IRA and protestant , or better still check the records, you will find thousands more mentions of IRA killings of protestants than anything else. While a minority of Republicans were / are Protestant - just as some Unionists were / are Roman Catholic - the average extremist republicans attitude to "black prods " is well known. You do not have to hear the comments or sing song after a Wolfe Tones concert, as I did.

Shutuplaura

"It was so rare because very few Protestants had jobs like that in Ireland in the first place. Even 30 or 40 years ago there were very few Gardai for example. Its all changed this last few decades of course."

According to Slugger O'Toole the number of protestant gardai is something like 14 so perhaps it hasn't changed - or, which is more likely, it was never a traditional job for the majority of protestant families. The RIC (the IRA's number one target by the way) always had a heavy catholic majority - as had the DMP. Even the RUC had a very large number of catholic members on is inception - they were inherited from the RIC. That's probably one of the reasons the Northern government felt the need to create three classes of Specials who were all pratically exclusively protestant. But as you said about the north, no state is perfect!!!

You are dead right when you say some innocent protestants were murdered, as were innocent catholics. it was a messy situation with a lot of guns floaing around. Like i said, presonal vendettas of all types were persued. Howasever, there was nothing even close to ethnic clensing by the IRA. If i'm wrong enlighten us all. You said it happened but can't say where.

Incidentially, I think 14 or so TD's in the first dail were protestant. all you have are a few weeping allegations which you can't elaborate on, and you've introduced nothing to the debate. Either you are a troll (shame on me for allowing myself to be drawn into a row with one) or just an particularly unimaginative contrarian.

Hagar

Of the eight Presidents the State has had since it's inception two have been members of the Church of Ireland. I don't think it is possible for such a minority group to achieve the Presidencey twice without the active support of their Catholic fellow Irishmen.

I think this displays the esteem in which the Protestant community is held in Ireland by the Catholic community as a whole.

Far from a persecuted minority wouldn't you agree?

Two Presidents were members of the Church of Ireland:

• Dr. Douglas Hyde, first President of Ireland
• Erskine Hamilton Childers, fourth President of Ireland

Mrs. MacGyver

europerson wrote:

I know, at least where I live, that the Church of Ireland people are among the most respected in the area: they're all very decent people, and both Catholics and Protestants get on very well in my area. However, the population is declining: if I remember correctly, there are only five Church of Ireland children in my parish. I think it would be a terrible shame to see the Protestant population die out.

I know the Catholich Church's attitude has changed now, but I think, historically, that they have a lot to answer for. Events like the Fethard-on-Sea boycott stand out, but there are even smaller things: for example, my mother informs me that, when she (a Catholic) was younger, children were told by their teachers that it was a sin to go into the grounds of the Church of Ireland church in their area.

My mother was told the same. However she ended up having a protestant daughter (me!). the differences are not noticable as much where i live. The population has held on steadily and a few families have returned from england. we practice ecumeinism in my area and we have an ecumenical service (there is a progressive PP and rector in the parish). Having studied both theology and history for my degree i can see things both frm a religious and historical perspective. The one thing i remember was hearing about a protestant librarian in Clare losing their job in Dev's era Recently read 'not by might' the book about Jeffrey Donaldson and there was a fare number of atrocities voiced against protestants by the IRA (yes before you ask, i know the book was fairly biased!) I think communities should focus where possible on what unites them , try to foster ecumenism and good relations. Protestants are not such a different species after all!

Shutuplaura

Hi thansk for yoyur comments. I'm aware that Protestants don't suckle satan from a third niple and I'm also aware that there was loads of low level ignorance from orginary people which is inexcusable. I just annoys me when people get all political about history - which is in the past after all - and strat throwing about lies to prove a point. The IRA never systematically massacred protestants in the south and the Irish state never systematically attempted to drive protestants from the country or deprive them from jobs. A historian I once very much respected - peter hart claimed that the former did happen but has been largely discredited:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80362

A comment by someone in a similar vein was made in another thread and i was just curious to know when this happened. Unfortuantely it seems he was a troll so no proper historical debate ensued.