when did we massacre all the protestants

Victor

vesp wrote:

It was so rare because very few Protestants had jobs like that in Ireland in the first place. Even 30 or 40 years ago there were very few Gardai for example. Its all changed this last few decades of course.

Apparently not.

the average extremist republicans attitude to "black prods " is well known.

I understand "black prods" refers to members of the Royal Black Preceptory / Royal Black Institution.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

. I'm aware that Protestants don't suckle satan from a third niple and I'm also aware that there was loads of low level ignorance from orginary people which is inexcusable.

WE are all aware of that.

Shutuplaura wrote:

.
The IRA never systematically massacred protestants in the south and the Irish state never systematically attempted to drive protestants from the country or deprive them from jobs.

Maybe the IRA never IRA never "systematically massacred protestants in the south" , compared to the Nazis systematic killing of Jews for example, but they did kill innocent protestants in the south.

As regards the Irish state never systematically attempted to deprive them from jobs - why did DeValera advocated job discrimination against protestants in the Dail in 1931 ? We all know how many Protestants got govt jobs in that era. Not surprising when Dev said if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, he would always give the job to the Catholic.

Shutuplaura wrote:

.
A historian I once very much respected - peter hart claimed that the former did happen but has been largely discredited:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80362

He has not been largely discredited. You can regurgitate all your propoganda from indymedia.ie / saormheaim eireann for all you want.

vesp

Originally Posted by vesp
"It was so rare because very few Protestants had jobs like that in Ireland in the first place. Even 30 or 40 years ago there were very few Gardai for example. Its all changed this last few decades of course."

Victor wrote:

Apparently not.

Aparently not what ? It is true very few Protestants had jobs like that in Ireland in the 30's, 40's etc . Even 30 or 40 years ago there were very few Gardai for example

Victor wrote:

I understand "black prods" refers to members of the Royal Black Preceptory / Royal Black Institution.

On more than one occassion I have heard the term " black prods" used against people who had no association with any Royal Black Preceptory / Royal Black Institution....it was an insulting term aimed at them because they were "prods". Black also has associations with darkness, hell, the devil etc.
Ye do not have to hang around a gang of drunk celtic fans discussing politics or after a Wolfe Tones concert very long to hear such phrases. Just the same as I would imagine its not beyond the bounds of possibility certain people on the Shankhill for example may from time to time utter phrases like "dirty fenian". Low life and extremists on both sides would have their words for each other if pressed on occassion.

Victor

vesp wrote:

Victor wrote:

vesp wrote:

"It was so rare because very few Protestants had jobs like that in Ireland in the first place. Even 30 or 40 years ago there were very few Gardai for example. Its all changed this last few decades of course."

Apparently not.

Aparently not what ?

It hasn't changed.

On more than one occassion I have heard the term " black prods" used against people who had no association with any Royal Black Preceptory / Royal Black Institution....it was an insulting term aimed at them because they were "prods".

Sure, there is not reasoning with ignorance.

Black also has associations with darkness, hell, the devil etc.

I don't think it is used in this sense.

Just the same as I would imagine its not beyond the bounds of possibility certain people on the Shankhill for example may from time to time utter phrases like "dirty fenian".

Actually its "fenian b******" or "taig".

Shutuplaura

vesp you twat did you even check the link out? It is in indymedia.ie (what's wrong with that btw) byt indymedia have merely recounted a debate from history ireland. Peter Harts sources have been discredited. In fact he claims he was show around Kilmichael by a vetern when there was no veterns alive at the time he specified (and the hadn't been for a number of years). In fact, the only person who was involved and still alive at the time he was researching the ambush was very old and infirm so couldn't have. He's also been caught using extremely selective quotes and quoting out of context, something they fail first year history student sin college. Even in spite of all of this even he claims that there was no organised masaccre of protestants by the IRA leadership and that the IRA as a whole tried extremely hard to ensure that sectarian volience was avoided. He then tlaks about how the west cork IRA did massacre protestants in Dunmanway, but it has been since shown that here to he rely's on largely fabricated evidence. Of couse, you are probably correct, some crusty fabricated the whole thing on indymedia, went over to Answers.com and got his lies publised there too. The bastard was probably signing on whle he was doing it!

http://www.answers.com/topic/peter-hart

in historical studies, points are raised, queried and defended or rebutted. Peter Hart has refused to answer his critics questions and for that he has been largely discredited - a pity because I liked his book a lot more that I liked the IRA.

So anyway, given your contstant interfering in historical debate in this forum, how did you now know any of this? Is your only knowledge of Hart from a quite old RTE documentary?

Shutuplaura

Oh, and about Dev, (who i think is a bit of an eejit but fair is fair on the guy)he probably did say that while in opposition at the time of the Mayo Librarian controversy. At the same time Cosgrave - who was in power and very much calling the shots over the controversy said “to discriminate against any citizen - or exercise a preference for any citizen - on account of religious belief would be to conflict with some of the fundamental principles upon which this state was founded”. Devs actions sounds like pure stupid populism, something FF have alsways followed. His comment was that a place with a 98% catholic population is entitled to a catholic head librarian and is pure FF populism at its best (well, worst really). When FF came to power they moved her to an equal job in Dublin, rather that simple fire her.

Also, Mayo County council was actually disbanded for refusing to appoint her, hardly the actions of a state thats actively discriminating against protestants.

incidentially, he also while granting the cath. church a "special" place in the constitution recognised the other denominations - "The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into force of this Constitution”.

While drafting the constitution he resisted calls from catholic organisations to make it more catholic and also resisted the clergy's calls to provide aid to Franco. Hardly the sort of guy to bring to a houseparty but still not exactly a frothing at the mouth bigot.

Mrs. MacGyver

Shutuplaura wrote:

vesp you twat did you even check the link out? It is in indymedia.ie (what's wrong with that btw) byt indymedia have merely recounted a debate from history ireland. Peter Harts sources have been discredited. In fact he claims he was show around Kilmichael by a vetern when there was no veterns alive at the time he specified (and the hadn't been for a number of years). In fact, the only person who was involved and still alive at the time he was researching the ambush was very old and infirm so couldn't have. He's also been caught using extremely selective quotes and quoting out of context, something they fail first year history student sin college. Even in spite of all of this even he claims that there was no organised masaccre of protestants by the IRA leadership and that the IRA as a whole tried extremely hard to ensure that sectarian volience was avoided. He then tlaks about how the west cork IRA did massacre protestants in Dunmanway, but it has been since shown that here to he rely's on largely fabricated evidence. Of couse, you are probably correct, some crusty fabricated the whole thing on indymedia, went over to Answers.com and got his lies publised there too. The bastard was probably signing on whle he was doing it!

http://www.answers.com/topic/peter-hart

in historical studies, points are raised, queried and defended or rebutted. Peter Hart has refused to answer his critics questions and for that he has been largely discredited - a pity because I liked his book a lot more that I liked the IRA.

So anyway, given your contstant interfering in historical debate in this forum, how did you now know any of this? Is your only knowledge of Hart from a quite old RTE documentary?

I am actually from near Dunmanway so i have a fair understanding of events. The war of independence is something that both sides prefer not to talk about in west Cork, the past still resurfaces old woulds for both so it's not best discussed if you decide to visit West Cork. Captn Woods was actually a next door neighbour of my grandfather and his decendants are quite a noce family. one of them is even a sergeant in the garda in conemara (where i leved for a bit!).

Regarding the massacre the following may be of interest:
In the early hours of the 26th April, IRA men from the Bandon Battalion (including Michael O'Neill, Acting O/C, his brother Stephen O'Neill and Charles O'Donoghue) broke into the house of Thomas Hornibrook at Ballygorman (about half-way between Cork and Bandon). Michael O'Neill was shot dead. The IRA left but returned with re-inforcements and laid siege to the house. Three of the Hornibrook (Thomas, his son Samuel and his son-in-law Capt Herbert Woods) family surrendered - they were taken away and shot dead. In the late hours of 26th and the early hours of the 27th, David Gray, Francis Fitzmaurice and James Buttimer were shot dead in the doorways of their homes on the Main St. in Dunmanway and a number of other Protestants in Dunmanway were attacked. Next evening, two men (Robert Howe and John Chinnery) were shot dead at their farms in Ballaghanure, east of Dunmanway. In the nearby village of Ballineen, a 16 year-old, Alexander McKinley was shot dead. In the nearby Murragh rectory, the son of the rector (Robert Harbord who was himself a curate) was shot dead on the doorstep). In a house in Caher (to the west of Ballineen) John Buttimer and Jim Greenfield were shot dead. Ten miles away, Robert Nagle was shot in his home in MacCurtain Hill in Clonakilty. Other houses in Clonakilty were raided. The following night (28th), John Bradfield was shot dead in his home in Killowen, east of Murragh and other Protestant homes raided.

Perhaps you could visit a few CofI graveyards in Murragh, FarranThomas and Dunmanway as the graves there if anything are testimony to what actually happened.

Yes ther were atrocities on both sides in both communities and we could argue all day about who was most affected but in this new century who cares? Let bygones be bygones and look to the future as the past only causes animosity and bad feeling. Life is way too short for that. I accept what happened but i dont dwell on it, and no one in the community mentions it, so let it be.

Shutuplaura

Mrs Mcguyver your comments are entirely correct regarding the real world. I doubt anyone who contributed to this forum ever talks about history/politics or religion becasue it's bound to ruffle feather, cause an argument or is just plain dull. however, this isn't the real world, its the history forum in boards and the whole point of it is to talk - or rake up - the past.

Incidentially, I know west cork well, and lived for a winter in Clonakilty. Loved the place, and was fully aware that noone is interested in raking up killings from 80 odd years ago. However, I always got the impression that people from Cork are at the same time proud of there history - i'll bet that the Wind that shakes the Barley was better attended there than anywhere else in Ireland. There is also plenty of books about Corks role in the war in every bookshop in Clon.

Regarding the family you know who lost a member in the killings, perhaps it would be more apt to blame the British government for not protecting the names of its informers as well as it should becasue my understanding of the incident is that it was a case of the IRA settling scores with informers who had probably caused them deaths in turn. I'm open to suggestions that this wasn't the case though.

Mrs. MacGyver

I actually agree with you on that one to be honest!

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

Oh, and about Dev, (who i think is a bit of an eejit but fair is fair on the guy)he probably did say that while in opposition at the time of the Mayo Librarian controversy..

No probably about it. It is on Dail record that he condoned job discrimination against Protestants. The Dail records from that year, 1931, are on the net if you want to look it up, like I did once.

vesp

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Regarding the massacre the following may be of interest:
In the early hours of the 26th April, IRA men from the Bandon Battalion (including Michael O'Neill, Acting O/C, his brother Stephen O'Neill and Charles O'Donoghue) broke into the house of Thomas Hornibrook at Ballygorman (about half-way between Cork and Bandon). Michael O'Neill was shot dead. The IRA left but returned with re-inforcements and laid siege to the house. Three of the Hornibrook (Thomas, his son Samuel and his son-in-law Capt Herbert Woods) family surrendered - they were taken away and shot dead. In the late hours of 26th and the early hours of the 27th, David Gray, Francis Fitzmaurice and James Buttimer were shot dead in the doorways of their homes on the Main St. in Dunmanway and a number of other Protestants in Dunmanway were attacked. Next evening, two men (Robert Howe and John Chinnery) were shot dead at their farms in Ballaghanure, east of Dunmanway. In the nearby village of Ballineen, a 16 year-old, Alexander McKinley was shot dead. In the nearby Murragh rectory, the son of the rector (Robert Harbord who was himself a curate) was shot dead on the doorstep). In a house in Caher (to the west of Ballineen) John Buttimer and Jim Greenfield were shot dead. Ten miles away, Robert Nagle was shot in his home in MacCurtain Hill in Clonakilty. Other houses in Clonakilty were raided. The following night (28th), John Bradfield was shot dead in his home in Killowen, east of Murragh and other Protestant homes raided.

Perhaps you could visit a few CofI graveyards in Murragh, FarranThomas and Dunmanway as the graves there if anything are testimony to what actually happened.

Sure there were innocent protestants murdered by extremist republicans. It happened elsewhere in the country as well. Not to mention the house burnings, intimidation etc. Mention it too much in this country, though, and see what happens. If you are a shopkeeper, you get a stone through your window. The intimidation still goes on to some extent by a small minority of the population.

walrusgumble

where? in northern ireland? fair enough it so, if thats the case. vesp, i am not arguing with you here, i merely asking you to specify your last comment in more detail as to where and when this has happened lately.

if you are right, its pure stupid and ignorant that its still happening

vesp

walrusgumble wrote:

where? in northern ireland?

No. The murders that we are talking about happened in different parts of the 26 counties during the " struggle for independence" and its aftermath.
The era in which DeValera condoned job discrimination against Protestants in his Dail speech was the thirties. Even during the eighties there were buildings burnt and attacked in the 26 counties , because of the tension built up during the hunger strikes. I know one English Prod who received intimidatory phone calls to get out during those times. Thank God Ireland is more pluralist and tolerant of minorities now. Still, stick ones head above the parapet too much and a small minority will attack you if they do not like what you say. Even Charlie Bird got attacked in O'Connell street and called an orange bast*** , or words to that effect, by extremist republicans. A bit ironic, considering he was such a friend of the Columbia Three etc. Poor auld Charlie was shaken, beaten, and stirred ! However not all victims of extremist republicans got or want the same attention on tv.;)

walrusgumble

i would not be suprised if some of the people who atacked charlie, had no clue of who the columbia 3 are. that was a complete joke on what happened to our charlie bird. so it continued in the 1980's?, bloody hell,

glad i was a 90's child, , but have heard it been used between my mates in college up the country, when drunk and fighting/arguing, an one happened to be a protestant and happened to get reminded of his religion ie ya orange *******

Mrs. MacGyver

I'm an 80's child and remember going up the north (Fermanagh,
Antrim, Derry) with may father (who worked for Bolands delivering products) anfd being stopped by what i presume were IRA members,armed with guns to inspect the vehicle (no they weren't RUC). I was made watch 'Today tonight' the forerunner of Primetime around the time of the Anglo-Irish agreement and checking around the back of the house each night in case the IRA or other planted a bomb...I was only 7 and the fear was ever present. Those who attached Charlie Bird should be ashamed, their values seriously need to be examined. i wish we could have the freedom to be who we are without other taking offence. If we are a multicultural society then why do we have to live in fear of offending a 'menancing minority'?

Shutuplaura

vesp wrote:

No probably about it. It is on Dail record that he condoned job discrimination against Protestants. The Dail records from that year, 1931, are on the net if you want to look it up, like I did once.

Do you even read what I write? I said he did say it - I also blah blah blah said there was a lot of blah blah blah intolerance againt protestants by catholics in Ireland. As I wrote, official state policy was different though. W.T. cosgrave stood up in the dail at the same time and said that it was contrary to the founding ideals of the state to discriminate on the basis of religon. Of course, as you have the patience to read the dry primary resource of the dail record you probably know that. Also, even in power Dev's attitude changed.

As for someone getting beaten up for saying what your saying now. Well perhaps, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time you could get beaten up for wearing glasses or being chinese or having and eastern european accent. Whats your point, that Ireland has its fair share of bogots? I never argued that. For one second. Its reducing your argument to the absured to equate individuals responses to the 81 hunger strike to state policy.

Anyway, answer my questions - its a discussion not a soapbox for a malcontents.

Explain why there are so few protestants in the current police force. You said it has all changed but by your own criteria it hasn't. Are we still discriminating agaist our religous minorities?!

Explain how in a country with policies of discrimination against protestants 14 or so founding TD's could be protestant and 2 presidents could be protestant?

Explain why you still think the Dunmanway Massacre was driven by sectarian tensions alone when extremely strong evidence suggests fit wasn't?

Also explain why the IRA leadership condemned the shootings as being too heavy handed in the immediate aftermath?

Why did the IRA accidentially burn down the houses of many catholics during what you call a deliberate campeign against them at the end of the civil war?!!

Why can't the decline in protestant numbers in the 70 years after independance be attributed to emigration, declining birth rates or anything else other that state discrimination or IRA murder gangs?

Tell us when the IRA and the state and the chruch turned its attention to the Jewish population of the country - their numbers have also been decreasing so by your reasoning they must have suffered

When exactly did the priests you talk of stand outside the gates of protestant churches trying to drive their flocks away?

While your at it, explain your basis for defending Peter Hart - I liked him a lot as I said and while his work still has some merit, until he answers his opponants unfortunately it does seem to have been discredited.

Finally, explain why you defend a far more sectarian state in the north but do not use the same reason to defend a seemingly far more benign regieme down here. Are you a hypocrite?

By the way, the only people who normally put struggle for independace in inverted commas are hardcore republicans. Why wasn't it a struggle for independance? Thats how those who participated saw it.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

Explain why there are so few protestants in the current police force.

I never said "there are so few protestants in the current police force". Numbers have increased dramatically in recent decades.

Shutuplaura wrote:

You said it has all changed but by your own criteria it hasn't.

It has - numbers of actual Protestants in the Gardai have increased by many hundreds of percent. Its thats not a change what is ?

Shutuplaura wrote:

Are we still discriminating agaist our religous minorities?!

[/QUOTE]

No. I never said we were. The Ireland of today and the nineties etc is far far different and better to the Ireland of the 20's, 30's 40's etc. While discrimination was not official in the 20's, 30's etc, that is not to say it did not go on or that it was not a cold house for certain minorities in Ireland.

InFront

Yes vesp, that's why we should never ever discriminate against one minority group based on what a small number of their community have been guilty of. Isn't that correct.

You of all people wouldn't want minorities to end up being victimised by state services or the media in this day and age, would you?

vesp

InFront wrote:

Yes vesp, that's why we should never ever discriminate against one minority group based on what a small number of their community have been guilty of. Isn't that correct.

You of all people wouldn't want minorities to end up being victimised by state services or the media in this day and age, would you?

of course not. And You of all people wouldn't want minorities to ever sympathise with or support - never mind actually be - the people who carry bombs on to trains or buses and detonate them, or people who try to detonate shoe bombs to bring down a plane over the Atlantic, or peple who attempt to make home made bombs, or people who plot to kidnap and put in orange jumpsuits and behead innocent people, or people who fly planes in to skyscrapers ?

I do not think minorities which actually grow thousands of percent in size in a generation or two - instead of more than halving - could be said to be victimised.

Shutuplaura

vesp wrote:

I never said "there are so few protestants in the current police force". Numbers have increased dramatically in recent decades.

Right, thanks for answering a mere two of the questions I put to you. Also, questions regarding current discrimination can be taken to be rhetorical!

Regarding current protestant garda numbers, I and another poster said there were very few protestant cops.

Please see below.

http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3

14 of the current force. By your reasoning, there must still be discrimination in the country? If you don't think there is discrimination now when something like 0.05% of all cops are protestant then why do you think there was in the past?

I contend that gardai, like many civil service jobs were not traditional employment choices for protestant families. Law for one was a traditional source of employment which is why even now, there is a disproportionalty high number of protestants in the Kings Inns. All of this doesn't point to discrimination, just family tradition.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

Right, thanks for answering a mere two of the questions I put to you.

I answered most if not all your other points in previous posts. Repitition is boring.

Shutuplaura wrote:

Regarding current protestant garda numbers, I and another poster said there were very few protestant cops.

Can you quote a reliable source for that ? The website you quote does not quote its source. As regards the number of protestants in the law profession, have you any statistics to back that up or is that another one of your hunches ?

ODS

Just thought i'd make a quick point regarding the torching of the estate houses in 1919 - 1923 period, and that is that in many instances these buildings were targeted in order to deny opposition forces the use of such building as a barracks.

Probably much more damaging to the genre of the Irish country house was the roof rates that were levied on buildings until the late 70's; this combined with the land acts rendered such houses unviable.

It really is an area that would merit a good Phd.

man1

Shutuplaura wrote:

. incidentially, the Belfast IRA had a protestant company at some stage in its existance - check it out in google and you'll probably find evidence.

Never heard about that one... While there were several protestant members of the IRA in the 26 counties circa 1920, I find what you are saying hard to believe.
Can you provide a link???

vesp

It sure is hard to believe, man1. Certainly in the last troubles , given the perceived ethnic cleansing by republicans of certain Protestants out of border areas , west of the Foyle etc , a Protestant company in the IRA is about as believeable as a Jewish company in the SS or a black company in the KKK.

Shutuplaura

Right, firstly vesp, I don't think you answered any of my questions, but I'll leave to to others to decide. However, you definately didn't respond to my question regarding your apparent hypocrasy. I'd also like to point of that you have contradicted yourself by claiming now there was ethnic cleansing by saying before you doubted there was a systematic killing of protestants. Seems to me to be a bit of a major U-turn.

Regarding the Protestant company of the IRA in Belfast, It was during the 1919-1921 conflict and I don't see any reason why its hard to believe - there was protestatn SF TD's elected to the first Dail; Erskine Childers who helped organise the Howth gun running was English, fought in the First world war and returned to republicanism after 1919, and ended up being shot by pro-treaty forces. Also, it couldn't really be called a sectarian conflict because as people like Kevin Myers like to point out, the IRA's number one enemy was the RIC which was predominately catholic.

Shutuplaura

Right, firstly vesp, I don't think you answered any of my questions, but I'll leave to to others to decide. However, you definately didn't respond to my question regarding your apparent hypocrasy. I'd also like to point of that you have contradicted yourself by claiming now there was ethnic cleansing by saying before you doubted there was a systematic killing of protestants. Seems to me to be a bit of a major U-turn.

Regarding the Protestant company of the IRA in Belfast, It was during the 1919-1921 conflict and I don't see any reason why its hard to believe - there was protestatn SF TD's elected to the first Dail; Erskine Childers who helped organise the Howth gun running was English, fought in the First world war and returned to republicanism after 1919, and ended up being shot by pro-treaty forces. Also, it couldn't really be called a sectarian conflict because as people like Kevin Myers like to point out, the IRA's number one enemy was the RIC which was predominately catholic.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

Right, firstly vesp, I don't think you answered any of my questions, but I'll leave to to others to decide. However, you definately didn't respond to my question regarding your apparent hypocrasy. I'd also like to point of that you have contradicted yourself by claiming now there was ethnic cleansing by saying before you doubted there was a systematic killing of protestants. Seems to me to be a bit of a major U-turn.

Regarding the Protestant company of the IRA in Belfast, It was during the 1919-1921 conflict and I don't see any reason why its hard to believe - there was protestatn SF TD's elected to the first Dail; Erskine Childers who helped organise the Howth gun running was English, fought in the First world war and returned to republicanism after 1919, and ended up being shot by pro-treaty forces. Also, it couldn't really be called a sectarian conflict because as people like Kevin Myers like to point out, the IRA's number one enemy was the RIC which was predominately catholic.

Do you not read posts or are you just poor at comprehension? What I wrote was "Certainly in the last troubles , given the perceived ethnic cleansing by republicans of certain Protestants out of border areas , west of the Foyle etc , a Protestant company in the IRA is about as believeable as a Jewish company in the SS or a black company in the KKK." Please read and comment intelligently , and do not misquote or use parts of quotes completely out of context.

Shutuplaura

Oh god I'm so sorry I didn't read your post intelligently. Can you apologise for not answering my questions intelligently?

man1

Shutuplaura wrote:

Regarding the Protestant company of the IRA in Belfast, It was during the 1919-1921 conflict and I don't see any reason why its hard to believe.

I would like to believe this but where did you get this information from? Was it in a book or somewhere on the net???

Shutuplaura wrote:

Also, it couldn't really be called a sectarian conflict because as people like Kevin Myers like to point out, the IRA's number one enemy was the RIC which was predominately catholic.

Which year(s) was this?

K-9

Survey on Protestants living in Border Counties