when did we massacre all the protestants

Shutuplaura

This came up in the Bobby Sands thread - the decline in the protestant population in the south after independance. Is it entirely fair to blame the state/the IRA/the church? Sectarian atititudes were far more common in most parts of the world at the time so a pronouncement like 'a catholic land for a catholic people' (which was said before the PM of Northern Ireland ever said a protestant land for a protestant people BTW) would have sounded less shocking that it does now - in much the same way that no dogs or Irish was just a fact of life in the USA. Anyway, surely, quite a few protestants wouldn't have liked the thought of living in post - independance Ireland and left for the UK - especially to find work. Young people of all denominations were leaving the country in droves throughout the first 80 odd years of the states existance. Also, surely the first world war would have eliminated far more of them that the IRA.

The main reason I ask is that I'd taken it as a fact that IRA atrocities against protestants were relatively widespread after I read Peter Harts books but have thought again about it since all of his sources have been called into serious question.

vesp

First, all of his sources have not been called into question.

Second, nobody claimed "we massacred all the protestants". Some innocent protestants were killed by republicans in the early decades of the 20th century ; some were intimidated out of their homes / the country ; it was a cold house for protestants in this state for many decades but they were not all massacred - far from it in all fairness. Nowadays of course there is no discrimination and many have got jobs in the Gardai, public service etc. It was different in the thirties for example when DeValera declared in the Dail that if he had two applicants for a job, one protestant and one catholic, he would always give the job to the catholic.

walrusgumble

vesp is right here, protestants in the south did get a hard time from the people, i remember hearing stories about some estate houses been burnt and people shunning business premises of protestant owners.

our of course the church and state came into play. you must remember that it was common that if a mixed family had a child, they had to give a sworn promise that the child would be raised a catholic. i cant remeber the case law but it was related to adoption where it seemed better to allow a child be adopted than allow the protestant father bring up his child in the protestant faith, after the catholic mother gave the child away when the marriage ended.

i never like referring to films as examples of fact in history discussions but look at that film, or prob better the novel, of frank mcourts angela's ashes, and the crude referrences of the father being a protestant from the north. remember the sceen when the aunt tried to comb the hair of the child, and a piece was standing up "sticking out like a protestant" was something along the lines said.

its a sam really consider the protestant connection with irelands independence:wolfe tone, parnell,padraig pearse (his dad i think was protestant), issac butt (founder of ipp), doughlas hyde,earnie o'malley and many more.

mike65

All the best and most honest Irishmen were Prods which is why they had to go! Anyone think Haughey et al would have flourished in a more "straight-wicket" state? The hosility toward Prodestants reached its zenith in the infamous Fethard-on-Sea boycott in 1957

http://www.ucd.ie/archives/html/collections/fisher-rev.htm

Mike.

europerson

I know, at least where I live, that the Church of Ireland people are among the most respected in the area: they're all very decent people, and both Catholics and Protestants get on very well in my area. However, the population is declining: if I remember correctly, there are only five Church of Ireland children in my parish. I think it would be a terrible shame to see the Protestant population die out.

I know the Catholich Church's attitude has changed now, but I think, historically, that they have a lot to answer for. Events like the Fethard-on-Sea boycott stand out, but there are even smaller things: for example, my mother informs me that, when she (a Catholic) was younger, children were told by their teachers that it was a sin to go into the grounds of the Church of Ireland church in their area.

Fratton Fred

Add Charles Stewart Parnell to that list. I believe he was a protestant and therefore the Catholic Church could not wait to stick the knife in when the scandal of his relationship with a divorced women broke.

But, in my opinion, the really sad thing, is that in 2007 it is still seen as an issue in this country that someone is Catholic or Protestant.

csk

To get back on topic, not all of Peter Hart's sources have been called into question but the fact that even one was, is enough to question the validity of his conclusions. It should also be noted that Peter Hart is not without form in this regard (anyone who knows about the debate around the Kilmichael Ambush will know what I'm talking about).

The Church of Ireland people I have asked about this issue are actually embarrassed by it, especially the trumpeting of it as somekind of "cause celebre" by Eoghan Harris etc, in fact sickened was one word used.

The population declined for many reasons but the oppressive grip the Catholic Church had on this State did not help and some Protestants recieved very poor treatment as a result.

Shutuplaura

The oppressive grip of the chruch and the general backwardness of the country caused many people to leave. The overwhelming majority of the were catholic and most went to the UK for work. Plenty of young protestant people would surely have been economic migrants. For instance, many Anglo-Irish families such as the Somerville-Rosses in West Cork would have had links to the British military and staying on in an independant country wouldn't have been appealing for personal family reasons.

Also, things like the Mayo Librarian controversy, Admiral Somerville's killing and the Fethard-on -Sea boycott were exceptions and not the rule which is why they are now so infamous. Ignorant attitudes were a symptom of the age in general a surely noone could claim a monopoly and to claim otherwise stays from history/heritage into tabloid commentry.

Also, by the way, and it is amazing noone mentions this, Peter Hart's sources have been called into controversy by historian Meda Ryan amongst others. Granted, they tend to be biased towards nationalism but his refusal to respond to them in History Ireland is notable. Check it out on Wikipedia. Oh, There is also a quote from him in which he backtracks and writes that he never claimed there was any ethnic cleansing.

The IRA burned down a large number of houses belonging to their enemies, many of whom were anglo-irish with natural sympathies towards the british government. Par for the course in a nasty gurellia war, and a tatic practised by both sides but hardly ethnic cleansing.

vesp

Shutuplaura wrote:

The IRA burned down a large number of houses belonging to their enemies, many of whom were anglo-irish with natural sympathies towards the british government.

"many of whom" indeed. Not all of the people the IRA killed were anglo-irish.
Some were just ordinary protestants working hard for a living. And anyway do you think if someone was an anglo-irish civilian that was a good enough reason to kill them ?
If having sympathy to the government of these islands at the time was enough to get many killed or intimidated or burnt out, that says it all.

Jackie laughlin

Until recently protestants in Ireland would have been a sub-set of the greater set: "unIrish". The greater set included intellectuals, writers, agnostics, atheists, dissidents, sinners. All were made to feel unwanted. Until when?? Whisper the answer! Until Jack Charlton!!!

brianthebard

OP do you have some figures for protestant population before and after independance? AFAIK the population of protestants in Ireland was always mainly concentrated in the six counties that make up the north. I don't think there's any need to be as sensationalist as to suggest massacres of protestants.

vesp

brianthebard wrote:

OP do you have some figures for protestant population before and after independance?

As far as I remember the figure in the 26 counties before independence was 10% of the population ; this fell to about 3% over the course of the generation or two after independence. Of course the discrimination protestant partners faced in mixed marriages was also a factor. Thankfully Ireland has changed a lot over the last few decades.

brianthebard wrote:

AFAIK the population of protestants in Ireland was always mainly concentrated in the six counties that make up the north.

True, about 7 of of every 10 people in the new Northern state were protestants, but we are talking about the 26 counties here, not the 6.

Sand

Nowadays of course there is no discrimination and many have got jobs in the Gardai

Last I heard, there are 14 protestants in the Gardai. Hard to confirm thought because Ive never seen any Gardai stats breaking down their membership by census identifiers.

purple'n'gold

It matters little to me whether a person is protestant, catholic or dissenter. But when one hears the nonsense and drivel from the likes of the so called “Rev "William McCrea it’s hard not to think that virulent anti Catholicism is alive and well on this island.

Extranjero

It's an absolute myth that the Catholic Church couldn't wait to stick the knife into Parnell because he was a Protestant. The Church stayed out of that affair until the dye was cast. Parnell's problem was the English non conformist supporters of Gladstone not wanting to do business with Parnell because of the scandal.

It is totally wrong to apportion blame to the catholic church for Parnell's downfall.

vesp

Sand wrote:

Last I heard, there are 14 protestants in the Gardai.

There could well be. I know it has increased in the last few decades. It used to be three as far as I remember reading somewhere. Makes a change from DeValera time, when he stood up and declared in the Dail that if he had two applicants for a job, one protestant and one catholic, he would always give the job to the catholic.

brianthebard

vesp wrote:

As far as I remember the figure in the 26 counties before independence was 10% of the population ; this fell to about 3% over the course of the generation or two after independence. Of course the discrimination protestant partners faced in mixed marriages was also a factor. Thankfully Ireland has changed a lot over the last few decades.

Can you back this up please? I find it hard to believe these figures since before independance there seperation and all census results etc refer to the 32 counties afaik.

Hagar

I see mention above of Protestants being burned out of Estate houses and businesses being boycotted, were any Protestants burned or chased out of ono-up one-down house with no inside toilets or from tenements perhaps? No? I didn't think so.

Maybe a lot of them thought "I'm getting the fnck otta here and taking my money with me before these Taig bastards catch on to where I got it." Quite a lot of the ground rents bought out a few years ago were owned by Protestant landlords who buggered off when times looked rough. But for years they held on to property out of all proportion to their small number in the State. A few sweeping generalisations with enough truth in them to be worth pillorying. Fire away.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

I see mention above of Protestants being burned out of Estate houses and businesses being boycotted, were any Protestants burned or chased out of ono-up one-down house with no inside toilets or from tenements perhaps? No? I didn't think so.

Maybe a lot of them thought "I'm getting the fnck otta here and taking my money with me before these Taig bastards catch on to where I got it." Quite a lot of the ground rents bought out a few years ago were owned by Protestant landlords who buggered off when times looked rough. But for years they held on to property out of all proportion to their small number in the State. A few sweeping generalisations with enough truth in them to be worth pillorying. Fire away.

Protestant Work Ethic?
Irish Bigotry?
Irish Begrudgery?

IMHO, one, two or three of the above apply to your post.;)

mike65

and he lives in France.

Mike.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

Protestant Work Ethic?
Irish Bigotry?
Irish Begrudgery?

IMHO, one, two or three of the above apply to your post.;)

D'ya think?

As per Mike's post I could be a Huguenot gone back to my roots.

Strange that the Huguenots sought safety in Ireland from oppression by Catholics don't you think? Why didn't they go to England I wonder?

Victor

brianthebard wrote:

Can you back this up please? I find it hard to believe these figures since before independance there seperation and all census results etc refer to the 32 counties afaik.

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol12_entire.pdf

brianthebard

Victor wrote:

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol12_entire.pdf

Vesp stated that the protestant population of the 26 counties prior to independance was 10%. What you've posted is (presumably, since I cannot see it stated otherwise) of the 32 counties. I can't see how this negates my point, but its late so is there something in particular you are referring to?

Victor

brianthebard wrote:

Vesp stated that the protestant population of the 26 counties prior to independance was 10%. What you've posted is (presumably, since I cannot see it stated otherwise) of the 32 counties. I can't see how this negates my point, but its late so is there something in particular you are referring to?

The CSO only work on a 26 county basis unless doing a comparitve study.

Year	% 'Protestant'*
1891	10%
1901	10%
1911	10%
1926	7%
1936	6%
1946	5%
1961	5%
1971	4%
1981	3%
1991	3%
2002	4%

* Under the CSO headings for Church of Ireland (incl. Protestant), 
Presbyterian & Methodist

vesp

Hagar wrote:

As per Mike's post I could be a Huguenot gone back to my roots.

You give your location as France and another poster draws attention to this. Nobody cares if you " could be a Huguenot gone back to my roots ".

Hagar wrote:

Strange that the Huguenots sought safety in Ireland from oppression by Catholics don't you think?

Not at all. These islands were a safe haven from those fleeing from religous persecution in mainland Europe at the time. Do not forget that in centuries gone by that Roman Catholic authorities killed, tortured and intimidated tens of thousands of non-catholics in catholic France, Spain etc Ever hear of the Spanish inquisition ?

Hagar wrote:

Why didn't they go to England I wonder?

Some did. It did not make much difference. We were united with Britain then, similar freedoms, laws etc. A bit like modern day African refugees not caring which of the Canary islands to land on, as long as they land on one.

InFront

Victor wrote:

The CSO only work on a 36 county basis unless doing a comparitve study.

New York, Boston, Australia and Ibiza?

Hagar

vesp wrote:

You give your location as France and another poster draws attention to this. Nobody cares if you " could be a Huguenot gone back to my roots ".

The thinly veiled accusation, somewhat jokingly I think in fairness, was being made against me was that I was an Irish Catholic bigot. I countered it by making the point that my religion and ethnic background was not known to the person making the accusation so it was therefore unfounded. By the way how do you know that nobody cares? In your tiny warped Vesp universe that may be true but in the universe that the rest of us inhabit things may be different.

Vesp wrote:

Not at all. These islands were a safe haven from those fleeing from religous persecution in mainland Europe at the time. Do not forget that in centuries gone by that Roman Catholic authorities killed, tortured and intimidated tens of thousands of non-catholics in catholic France, Spain etc Ever hear of the Spanish inquisition ?

If religious intolerance towards Protestants was so rife in Ireland why did they even come here? Surely they would not have come to Ireland if they thought that they would be unsafe. As for the question about the Spanish Inquisition, of course I have heard of it, don't be so facetious. Did you notice though that it was called the Spanish Inquisition not the Irish Inquisition? Do you think that is because it took place in Spain and not in Ireland?

luckat

Perhaps we need to get rid of some of the cultural myths about the 'Protestant ethic' and so on if we're to discuss this sensibly.

Ireland was Catholic-inhabited but Protestant-ruled before independence. The civil service had a glass ceiling for Catholics, and in fact virtually all senior civil servants were Protestant, and most English.

The same applied in the banks. In commerce, there were many Protestant-run big businesses, and a few Catholic-run ones. And people are human - they gave advantage to 'their own' and distrusted the others.

When the Saorstát and then the Republic came about, the civil service ambit changed. Being a Protestant was no longer an automatic advantage. A lot of people who had worked for the British-run civil service in Ireland simply moved to England.

The economic war imposed by England also changed things - many Protestants just moved to England, perhaps having less commitment to Ireland, or perhaps just having more opportunity to leave.

Protestants in Ireland had historically always been England-looking - their children were sent to English boarding schools, and London was their cultural node.

And when people of one particular cultural group start leaking out of a country, others follow. There's no longer a large enough group for them to find marriage partners among those they consider their own, so they either don't marry or leave to find partners. Or they 'marry in' and change their cultural alignment.

Looking at a branch of my own family that was strongly Protestant a couple of generations ago, the Protestant and unionist men of my grandmother's family went to Canada and the US to find work, and settled there. (From what I can gather, their descendants seem to have slid down a class or two, as often happens to hopeful emigrants.)

The Protestant and republican women of the family varied. Some became Catholics; only two of the six had children, and only one's children had children of their own, most of whom are now more or less non-religious. I'd say this is fairly typical.

And these (my grandmother's generation) were the grandsons and granddaughters of a minister.

Fratton Fred

Hagar wrote:

The thinly veiled accusation, somewhat jokingly I think in fairness, was being made against me was that I was an Irish Catholic bigot. I countered it by making the point that my religion and ethnic background was not known to the person making the accusation so it was therefore unfounded.

it was a lighthearted dig, not at you personally but at your post, which as you said yourself was full of holes.

if the "Wealthy" protestants decided to clear off with their money, maybe it was because bigotry in this country had forced them, or maybe it was this thing I have heard talk about "Begrudgery".

Who knows, but as mentoned in the post above, when times are hard, the people who have the ability to clear off will do so. If the Protestants here had family and or land in England then that would probably have been a more attractive option for them.

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote:

it was a lighthearted dig, not at you personally but at your post, which as you said yourself was full of holes.

Ah sure I knew you weren't serious, I took it as intended. And what I said was as full of holes as a net but not entirely unfounded.
Oh and I'm not a Huguenot, FFS I even had to look up the spelling. I was just making a point about assumptions.

Fratton Fred wrote:

if the "Wealthy" protestants decided to clear off with their money, maybe it was because bigotry in this country had forced them, or maybe it was this thing I have heard talk about "Begrudgery".

I'm not convinced that bigotry was the biggest factor. As a previous poster pointed out, at the time they were running the place and held key positions and ran sucessful businesses. I think most left for economic reasons. They saw a fledgling Nation without an arse in its trousers and knew there was little prospect of an economic future here for them in the short term. So they left, fair play to them. I'd have done the same. But I believe it's wrong to say they were run out. They were never a big community and any emmigration was going to have a major impact on their numbers. Begrudgery is more of a "National Sport" rather than anything else, other than a bit of malicious gossip it does no harm.

Who knows, but as mentoned in the post above, when times are hard, the people who have the ability to clear off will do so. If the Protestants here had family and or land in England then that would probably have been a more attractive option for them.

Spot on.

luckat

Oh, another thing.

I once asked one of my great-aunts, when I was little and could ask such things, why she'd never remarried. (Her husband had died in the 1918 flu.)

She said "We were called the lost generation, you know. All the young men died in the war."

*Huge* numbers of Irish Protestants - many of them republicans, indeed - died fighting in the British Army in World War I. The effect on a minority population must have been stupendous.

I've read - don't know if it's true - that in Scotland, before the Great War the average male height was 6'4", but so many Scots were killed that the average height declined to 5'8" (the minimum height for army recruits then), and has never since recovered.

Wouldn't a similar genetic effect have been part of why the Protestants in Ireland declined? I know it wasn't (so) evident in the North, but there was a larger breeding population there, proportionally, and inded many southern Protestants may have married Northerners and moved north, distorting the figures further.