Prostitution

JohnK

AARRRGH wrote: »

Human trafficking is totally abnormal in the Irish prostitution industry so we should not be suprised.

Oh I'm not surprised by that I'm just surprised it was acknowledged in a major newspaper.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Of course, someone will come along any minute now and say every prosititute is forced or coerced...

Funny you should say that, on the radio this morning there was a woman ringing in complaining about the sentence given to the woman who ran the day-to-day operations of the brothel and she was using all the buzz words of trafficking and violence etc. Was quite ridiculous really given the dj/host had spent the last 10 - 15 minutes talking about how trafficking & violence played no part in it.

Interesting to note as well that Linnane was apparently commended by the judge for reporting to the police those people who came to the brothel looking for children. I cant help but wonder if all brothel owners would be so inclined since the act of reporting those people would bring unwanted police attention to their own illegal business. I guess that would be another benefit of legalisation - the owners wouldnt have to fear making such reports if the police wouldnt be chasing the brothels themselves afterwards.

Fuinseog

CoolGuy2006 wrote: »

Ok, im a guy, mid 20's.
My problem is with prostitution. Why has it become so acceptable nowadays.
Most of my friends have been with prostitutes and in my last job none of the guys were shy about talking about their past experiences either.

My friends would appear to have good morals on a day to day basis but every now and then they will head over to amsterdam to do the usual. This kinda thing is so common with men in General, far more common then i ever would have believed. I always pictured old desperate men going to prostitues but my mates are all young and good looking and would have no problem meeting up with a nice girl, whenever they want.

Even a good mate of mine came back from travelling and told me he met a prostitue in a park and did the business. WTF

He now has a lovely girlfriend who i know would be disgusted if she new this. You just wouldnt imagine this guy doing this kinda thing.

So, whats my problem i hear you say. Well, my problem is that i think Guys and most people now like to sugar coat the whole thing. Saying that the girls make good money and are saving up for houses, cars, blah blah blah. I think people put the real truth to the very back of their minds. Some of these women are in very desperate situations, some of thes women are sex slaves, kidnapped women kept in brothels

I was talking to one of my girlfriends about it and she said that she and her friends know that most guys do this kinda thing so there isnt anything they can really do about it. She just accepts it. I dunno, i think most girls would be shocked to find out how common this kinda thing really is.

I am moving to Hamburg in two weeks, prostitution is legal there and at night the prostitutes are all over the main party streets. My girlfriend who is German said the usual, blah blah blah, they are saving for cars and houses.

I showed her an article in a german magazine that talked about the trafficking of sex slaves into germany and the rest of western europe. Its like my girlfriend and her friends had never even given this a thought before. In the article a prostitute was interviewed. They quoted her as saying that she gets a little sense of satisfaction from sleeping with these men because they are probably less likely to go home and abuse their kids - WTF

Its strange walking down the Reeperbahn in hamburg and you see groups of lads, irish, English, Scottish, all just walking around in groups and going over to make arrangements with the prostitues. These are guys who think they can go abroad and fulfill their sexual needs and come home and leave it all behind.You can see it in their eyes, you can see the guilt, but they all act jack the lad with their mates.

I think people look at prostitution two ways.

1: is that they see the women as business women who are getting a good deal and saving for a good future.

2: its degrading to women and men and there is always the chance that the person is a sex slave who has been trafficked out of their home country

Why does everyone just accept it as part of modern life. Why do guys who normaly are of good character feel that when they go abroad they can throw money at a girl in a desperate situation, then come home and lead the normal good moral high life again




Should i come down off my high Horse.

prostitution has always been accepted, only these days feminists are attacking it.

AARRRGH

Fuinseog wrote: »

prostitution has always been accepted, only these days feminists are attacking it.

You mean extremist feminists.

I'm a feminist, it's one of the main reasons I defend prostitutes: women are capable of choosing what they do with their lives; they aren't always being controlled by men.

Fuinseog

AARRRGH wrote: »

You mean extremist feminists.

I'm a feminist, it's one of the main reasons I defend prostitutes: women are capable of choosing what they do with their lives; they aren't always being controlled by men.

unfortunately extremists are pushing their viewpoints to the fore. herself with oral sex bats in cork went a little OTT.

prostitution is a cold hearted business, yet is somethig that will not be extinguished so easily. it is never entirely clear who is screwing who.

a lot of guys go to prostitutes because they are guaranteed to score and do not have the time for romance. they can also do things with prostitutes that 'nice' girls would never do.
In addition Irish women have the reputation of being very choosy and demanding.they expect every man to look like brad pitt.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

That is so insulting to women. There are many women who choose to work as prostitutes and who do not view themselves as victims. Most prostitutes would fall into this category. Here's a link to one such organisation (run by prostitutes, for prostitutes) who would agree with me:

http://www.prostitutescollective.net

Trafficking is still a very small problem in the prostitution industry, but I accept it is growing so it needs to be tackled. However, the way to tackle it is not by getting harsher on prostitution and driving it further underground. It is time to be mature about sex and realise the only way forward is the full decriminalisation of prostitution and some sort of regulatory body to provide licences or whatever to brothels so prostitutes are guaranteed a safe working environment.

Reliable statistics from The HSE, Gardai etc which have been presented to you many times state otherwise. Trafficking is a huge problem here.

Criminalising the clients is key. They are the ones with a completely free choice here. If it becomes a criminal offence to use a prostitute then the demand will dwindle. Having programs to help get prostitutes make the transition back to a more normal life would help greatly.

Lets get it straight. The prostitution industry/tarfficking/human slavery here is financed by large demand by Irish males. It is not caused by promiscuous women tempting otherwise saintly men. Prostitutes are sought out be Irish men.

Attacking this self indulgent type of irish man will shrink the problem.

T runner

Fuinseog wrote: »

unfortunately extremists are pushing their viewpoints to the fore. herself with oral sex bats in cork went a little OTT.

prostitution is a cold hearted business, yet is somethig that will not be extinguished so easily. it is never entirely clear who is screwing who.

a lot of guys go to prostitutes because they are guaranteed to score and do not have the time for romance. they can also do things with prostitutes that 'nice' girls would never do.
In addition Irish women have the reputation of being very choosy and demanding.they expect every man to look like brad pitt.

"Women seem wicked when youre unwanted" Jim Morrison1968

Better sorting out your own romantic problems than using prostitutes who may/may not be coerced trafficked.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

Trafficking is a huge problem here.

Again with the lies.

T runner wrote: »

If it becomes a criminal offence to use a prostitute then the demand will dwindle.

The demand will dwindle, but it'll also push the industry even further underground.

Do you really have the women's interests at heart or do you just have an issue with people have sex?

Greyfox

T runner wrote: »

Attacking this self indulgent type of irish man will shrink the problem.

In my opinion the vast majority of men who pay for sex do it because they are pathetic losers who don't have the ability to get it without paying for it, I think we should feel sorry for these men rather than criminalise them

T runner

Deleted User wrote: »

The TJ Carroll story is chilling to say the least, but would you not agree that if prostitution was legalised, licenced and regulated the incentive to traffic women would decrease? If things stay the way they are there are plenty of entrepreneurs willing to take over from Carroll.

As an aside, I would take everything Ruhama says with a pinch of salt. They freely admit they are an organisation founded on a Christian ethos, and needless to say, Christians have a very unhealthy attitude towards sex in general.

Things staying as they are is not an option, I hope.

Criminalising the client and decriminalising the prostitute will have a direct affect on the market and therefore the amount of prostitutes in the country.

This will have a direct affact on the numbers being trafficked while also bringing the numbers of prostitutes down overall.

It is demand that creates supply and not the other way around.
The lilly livered middleclass type that is financing this industry will not risk criminal proceedings.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

You have been consistently given substatiation in this thread to valid reports supported by the Irish Immigrant Council, An Garda Siochana, The HSE that shows the extent of the problems faced by prostitutes in this country including human trafficking. You have repeatedly had no answers bar to try and associate the reports to Ruhama.

The reports by the Immigrant Council are repackaged Ruhama reports. They admit this themselves. I rang them and asked them.

You are yet to provide any actual evidence of any sort of substantial (or even minor) trafficking problem in Ireland.

Every piece of "evidence" has been a report by an extremist group. For example, your "HSE" report was a report by an extremist group with a bunch of logos at the bottom of it (one of them being the HSE). That proves nothing. For all we know the HSE only provided statistics on the number of hospitals in Ireland.

Seriously, show me the evidence from a source other than Ruhama or an extremist feminist group. Surely if there is any sort of substantial trafficking problem in Ireland it should be easy to prove?

EDIT: For the record, I am sure there are some horror stories out there, but the odd horror story here or there does not mean substantial problem.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

Things staying as they are is not an option, I hope.

Criminalising the client and decriminalising the prostitute will have a direct affect on the market and therefore the amount of prostitutes in the country.

This will have a direct affact on the numbers being trafficked while also bringing the numbers of prostitutes down overall.

It is demand that creates supply and not the other way around.
The lilly livered middleclass type that is financing this industry will not risk criminal proceedings.

Tougher criminal laws will just drive the industry further underground. This is an indisputable fact.

If you genuinely cared about women/prostitutes you would not want to push the industry further underground.

T runner

T runner wrote: »

Criminalising the client and decriminalising the prostitute will have a direct affect on the market and therefore the amount of prostitutes in the country.

Why not just decriminalise both?

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'm sure you understand I could write an article about you claiming you are a terrible person and use quotes from "sources" to back up my points.

LOL.

Does this mean youre going to pretend to write another article on the sex industry...And make a pretend phone call to The Irish Immigrant Council? And pretend they told you Ruhama were behiind all their statistics?

Youre a gas ticket!

T runner

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not just decriminalise both?

Because the demand for prostitution would remain huge and thus the amount of prostitutes/trafficked people would remain large.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

LOL.

Does this mean youre going to pretend to write another article on the sex industry...And make a pretend phone call to The Irish Immigrant Council? And pretend they told you Ruhama were behiind all their statistics?

Youre a gas ticket!

Why do you feel the need to ridicule the things I have done?

All I am asking for is evidence from organisations who would not be considered extremist, i.e. evidence from an organisation which doesn't think every prostitute is forced or every foreign prostitute is trafficked.

It is a simple request and is common sense; using "evidence" from extremists is not reasonable.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

Tougher criminal laws will just drive the industry further underground. This is an indisputable fact.

Well im just about to dispute it! Any substantiation to show its indisputable?

Criminal laws against the client will mean the client will be punished severeley if caught. Get a criminal record. This is enough to stop the majority of clients (who are not sex addicts..just self indulging).

decriminalising the offence for prostitutes will make their life easier and make rehabilitaion easier when the leave the profession.

If you genuinely cared about women/prostitutes you would not want to push the industry further underground.

I do care about their welfare thats why i want the people who abuse them to be criminalised.

Hows your latest article on the sex industry coming along??? LOL

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why do you feel the need to ridicule the things I have done?

All I am asking for is evidence from organisations who would not be considered extremist, i.e. evidence from an organisation which doesn't think every prostitute is forced or every foreign prostitute is trafficked.

It is a simple request and is common sense; using "evidence" from extremists is not reasonable.

And you have received substantiated evidence from The Irish Immigrant Coucil, The HSE, the Garda Siochana to show that trafficking is a major problem here. Do you dispute these as reputable sources?????

If you make up a story claiming that you wrote an article and phoned teh Irish Immigrant Council who informed you that all their facts came from Ruhama then you are open to ridicule. If you want to be taken seriously then be honest, substantioate your claims and stop dismissing evidence from the HSE, Gardai etc as from extremists.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

And you have received substantiated evidence from The Irish Immigrant Coucil, The HSE, the Garda Siochana to show that trafficking is a major problem here. Do you dispute these as reputable sources?????

Once again I will repeat this because you don't understand it.

1. The Irish Immigrant Council

Their reports are from Ruhama. They do not do their own independent research. I know this because I asked them. (I know that sounds weird to you, but I actually investigate where my information is coming from so I know whether it can be trusted or not).

2. The HSE

The report you linked to which you claimed was by the HSE was written by three extremist feminist (who have nothing to do with the HSE) who think all prostitution is forced and men who have sex with prostitutes are committing sexual assault. The HSE link was simply the use of their logo at the bottom of the report, and a vague reference that some of the information (unreferenced) came from the HSE.

3. The Garda Siochana

You are yet to provide any reference about trafficking from the Garda Siochana. No one is disputing there are prostitutes or brothel owners in Ireland.

...

Now it's my turn. Want some evidence? Here you go:

Detective Superintendent John McKeown, who heads Operation Quest (the anti-Vice squad) wrote:

¨We have carried out an in-depth investigation into organised prostitution over the past 18 months and we have found no evidence of exploitation or trafficking. There are no gangs involved and there is little violence.

"The youngest girls appear to be 19 and most are in their 20s and early 30s. We have found no evidence of underage girls working - the pimps don't want to bring that kind of attention on themselves. The girls are working because they want to make money and Dublin is somewhere that they can earn a lot of money," Detective Superintendent McKeown said.

"I was very surprised when we started this investigation to find that a lot of the old myths regarding prostitution have gone out the window. It is a service that is in demand and there is a lot of money about nowadays. To put it simply, there is room for everyone and plenty of work. The pimps know one another and work side by side. They don't want trouble and there are rarely disputes."

Operation Quest have also investigated a number of lap dancing clubs but say they have found no breaches of the law within that industry and no exploitation.

"Again the girls are here willingly and it is their choice to work in the business: they are earning a lot of money. They seem to be very happy doing what they are doing. They are not breaking any criminal laws. Obviously prostitution is morally wrong but there are no laws being broken because the girls aren't soliciting sex on the streets," said McKeown.

He believes that Ireland should consider making prostitution legal and monitoring it properly.

"We do not go after the girls - we wouldn't even consider doing that. It is the organisers that we are interested in," he said. "But the fact is that prostitution is here to stay and perhaps it is time that our legislators started to consider making it legal and getting a proper handle on it. Of course that would mean that taxes would have to be paid and maybe Dublin wouldn't be as lucrative a place to work."

That's from an interview in the Irish Independent.

AARRRGH

I find how this thread has progressed quite amazing.

First it was all prostitutes are victims.
Then it was all prostitutes are forced.
Then it was all prostitutes are trafficked.
Now it is all brothel keepers are traffickers.

This thread should be studied as an example of how emotions throw logic and reality out the window.

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

This thread should be studied as an example of how emotions throw logic and reality out the window.

The hysteria is quite amazing, especially in the last few pages. I cannot understand how some posters have applied the recent Carroll case to all areas of prostitution. It is mind boggling.

rickkool

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ruhama, on the other hand, are a Catholic organisation who are not respected by anyone working within the industry (including the Gardai and other prostitution/victim support groups). If you know anything about religion you will know organised Catholic groups are completely ****ed when it comes to sex.

http://www.learn-hebrew-names.com/Show-Hebrew-Name-Ruhamah_%28Ruhama,_Ruchama%29-en610.htm


A little link for the misguided and uneducated on here.. a brief explanation of what "ruhama" actually translates from...

Aarrrgh is spot on!! its a religious sect belittle modern, independent free thinking women!! the same religion need I remind you that abuses and tortures children... MUST I??? Do we need to delve into that can of worms???

AARRRGH

They weren't charged with trafficking. The links you provided prove this. The courts didn't even present any evidence for trafficking or discuss trafficking. The only possible connection to trafficking was hearsay from a prostitute who was arrested.

I'm finding it really hard to talk to you because you don't seem to understand the things you are reading. You are seeing "owner of brothel" and making the massive leap to "trafficker".

I also find your posts a bit bizarre. Do you mind me asking, are you religious?

polliepp

This is a really interesting debate. While some women actively chose to engage in prostitution and are not victims of trafficking I do believe that the majority of women who sell sex so suffer from low self esteem in some way so they are all victims to a degree. Just because you are making loads of money does not mean that these women are happy and enjoy what they do. I have been involved in social work and when meeting prostitutes some of them are so detached from what they are doing it is not until years later that the impact of what they have done hits them and in a very big way. For men who engage the service of prostitutes it’s convenient for them to believe oh she loves sex and is making loads of money so it’s no big deal. This is a classic case of denial. The happy hooker is generally a myth and one men use to justify prostitution to themselves.
Part of the prostitute’s job is to make men feel that they are enjoying sex with them – I really don’t think that is the case a lot of the time and if men believe this they are sadly deluded. A prostitute I know told me that she was told to pretend she was a free agent and working for herself as the idea of the pimp may put some men off. Also, another prostitute informed me of a time when a man complained to the pimp because the woman was too nervous and had started crying and this had put him off. Obviously never occurred to him that this woman was there against her will or he didn’t care. The thing is there is never really any way of knowing what the circumstances of the woman are and how do you know she is not being told what to say to appeal to the customer. The mentality of some men (not all) is really sickening. For example the men who go on to websites and rate the women they slept with is particularly sick in my view. It’s like as if they are reviewing a product they purchased at Argos. Some men even write things like she seemed nervous and was shaking etc and are so angry about this poor service! Hello! Also, I have to say I cracked up laughing at one the man complained that the room was a little messy and then asked “do these women have no respect for the punters these days”.
I don’t think people think about the deeper issues of prostitution for both men and women. For men who engage with prostitutes there is no way this cannot impact his view of his own sexuality, the sexuality of women and sex in general. Detaching a woman’s sexuality from her as a person has serious implications for society as a whole. In this porn culture some believe that sleeping with a prostitute is a sign of sexual liberation for both sexes, I really think it is the opposite in some way – its show’s how devalued sex and sexuality has really become.
I do believe that legalisation is the best way forward – making the best of a bad situation.

AARRRGH

polliepp wrote:

I do believe that the majority of women who sell sex so suffer from low self esteem in some way so they are all victims to a degree. Just because you are making loads of money does not mean that these women are happy and enjoy what they do.

Polly you could apply that logic to nearly any person in any career. Many women suffer from low self esteem and don't like their job.

polliepp wrote:

I don’t think people think about the deeper issues of prostitution for both men and women. For men who engage with prostitutes there is no way this cannot impact his view of his own sexuality, the sexuality of women and sex in general. Detaching a woman’s sexuality from her as a person has serious implications for society as a whole. In this porn culture some believe that sleeping with a prostitute is a sign of sexual liberation for both sexes, I really think it is the opposite in some way – its show’s how devalued sex and sexuality has really become.

How is a one night stand or a fling any different? The man is using the girl for sex. Also, you are showing quite a lack of understanding of men if you think sex for money is going to "impact his view of his own sexuality".

I agree some women who work as prostitutes probably aren't mentally up to it, but it's their life and they are entitled to make bad choices, and I could say the same about many other professions, e.g. soldier, therapist, bouncer, garda, etc.

polliepp wrote:

I do believe that legalisation is the best way forward – making the best of a bad situation

I agree.

polliepp

I have a question for those who believe that many prostitues, choose to engage in offering their services voluntarily, enjoy sex and make lots of money from it and that there is nothing seedy about men paying for sex. A number of posters have referred to prostitutes as having other jobs and using it to supplement their income.

By this logic does this imply that if your sister, girlfriend whatever decided that she really liked sex and that she needed the extra money that you would be okay with this and would support her in this decision and wouldn't think any less of her as result.

If you wouldn't be okay with this - why then is it acceptable for "other women" to do so? Does this relate to the virgin/whore classification of women?

AARRRGH

polliepp wrote: »

I have a question for those who believe that many prostitues, choose to engage in offering their services voluntarily, enjoy sex and make lots of money from it and that there is nothing seedy about men paying for sex. A number of posters have referred to prostitutes as having other jobs and using it to supplement their income.

By this logic does this imply that if your sister, girlfriend whatever decided that she really liked sex and that she needed the extra money that you would be okay with this and would support her in this decision and wouldn't think any less of her as result.

If you wouldn't be okay with this - why then is it acceptable for "other women" to do so? Does this relate to the virgin/whore classification of women?

I accept most prostitutes probably don't like their job, but the very high income it provides makes it worth it (in their opinion).

Although I am not a controlling person (as you can probably tell by this thread, I don't try to control other people's behavior), if my sister or mother told me she was going to be a prostitute I would try to talk her out of it. Why? Because prostitution in its current form (underground) is a potentially risky job.

But I would accept them for who they are. Unlike RIODEJ I do not think prostitutes are below me or think I am better than anyone.

rickkool

polliepp wrote: »

This is a really interesting debate. While some women actively chose to engage in prostitution and are not victims of trafficking I do believe that the majority of women who sell sex so suffer from low self esteem in some way so they are all victims to a degree. Just because you are making loads of money does not mean that these women are happy and enjoy what they do. I have been involved in social work and when meeting prostitutes some of them are so detached from what they are doing it is not until years later that the impact of what they have done hits them and in a very big way. For men who engage the service of prostitutes it’s convenient for them to believe oh she loves sex and is making loads of money so it’s no big deal. This is a classic case of denial. The happy hooker is generally a myth and one men use to justify prostitution to themselves.
Part of the prostitute’s job is to make men feel that they are enjoying sex with them – I really don’t think that is the case a lot of the time and if men believe this they are sadly deluded. A prostitute I know told me that she was told to pretend she was a free agent and working for herself as the idea of the pimp may put some men off. Also, another prostitute informed me of a time when a man complained to the pimp because the woman was too nervous and had started crying and this had put him off. Obviously never occurred to him that this woman was there against her will or he didn’t care. The thing is there is never really any way of knowing what the circumstances of the woman are and how do you know she is not being told what to say to appeal to the customer. The mentality of some men (not all) is really sickening. For example the men who go on to websites and rate the women they slept with is particularly sick in my view. It’s like as if they are reviewing a product they purchased at Argos. Some men even write things like she seemed nervous and was shaking etc and are so angry about this poor service! Hello! Also, I have to say I cracked up laughing at one the man complained that the room was a little messy and then asked “do these women have no respect for the punters these days”.
I don’t think people think about the deeper issues of prostitution for both men and women. For men who engage with prostitutes there is no way this cannot impact his view of his own sexuality, the sexuality of women and sex in general. Detaching a woman’s sexuality from her as a person has serious implications for society as a whole. In this porn culture some believe that sleeping with a prostitute is a sign of sexual liberation for both sexes, I really think it is the opposite in some way – its show’s how devalued sex and sexuality has really become.
I do believe that legalisation is the best way forward – making the best of a bad situation.

A very well informed and well expressed opinion!!

You are spot on with everything you do say, there are all sorts of women who are in prostitution.. weather its independently or from a trafficking situation... maybe some women do say I love it etc... some might not mean it, true.. some only say it for the money.. but still there are some women that genuinely like the thrill of their job

Darlughda

I want proper legislation that protects prostitutes rather than criminalises them. Horrific stories yet again this week abouthwomen been brutalised and murdered in Britain. These women have to be protected.

Some people are good at sex and actually its a very good earner.
If women were afforded the proper protection, than maybe it could be a safer industry for them. I really wish people would get off their high moral horses about the sex issue for women. Different strokes and all that.


By the way, for whoever said a few posts back that the sex abuse of children was exaggerated within the Roman Catholic Church, well, I am sorry, but you are grossly deluded. You don't know the half of it.

rickkool

polliepp wrote: »

I have a question for those who believe that many prostitues, choose to engage in offering their services voluntarily, enjoy sex and make lots of money from it and that there is nothing seedy about men paying for sex. A number of posters have referred to prostitutes as having other jobs and using it to supplement their income.

By this logic does this imply that if your sister, girlfriend whatever decided that she really liked sex and that she needed the extra money that you would be okay with this and would support her in this decision and wouldn't think any less of her as result.

If you wouldn't be okay with this - why then is it acceptable for "other women" to do so? Does this relate to the virgin/whore classification of women?

Ive already told rio my opinion on this, if a female relative or friend chose this profession its their personal choice.. it goes without saying I would worry no end of their well being due to how prostitution is viewed by irish society in general!!


If I force her not to do it, is that not similar to the guy forcing her into it (the pimp / trafficker)??? she would have her own opinion
and choice..

Ms.Odgeynist

CoolGuy2006 - I'm not sure if you should come down off your high horse but you should definitely look into self harm. That rubbish you are peddling is atypical of the feminist inspired thrash that poses for opinion these days. Why do you have an opinion? You seem completely unlikely to ever visit a prostitute. Trafficking - as was also mentioned - is a crime. There are victims. Don't confuse the two. Did you know there is serious thought being given to decriminalising prostitution and criminalising paying for sex. This is the latest in a pattern of simultaneously deifying and victimising women. The implication, as far as I can see, is that if you are a woman then chances are the decisions being made in your life are being made on your behalf rather than by you. Hence you are at all times guilt-free. I read your thread and I feel something between pity for you, and seething anger that you could grow up in this country and remain so free from original thought.