Docklands Station (Design and Construction)

dowlingm

presume the reason the cost fell from 60m to 30m is partly due to sacrificing one of the three platforms?

Transport21 Fan

dowlingm wrote:

presume the reason the cost fell from 60m to 30m is partly due to sacrificing one of the three platforms?

They halved the number of hanging flower baskets.

Metrobest

AYM wrote:

How do I know? I picked up the phone and asked.

All REAL commuters care about is there's more trains for Maynooth, it means the terminus is there for Dunboyne and hopefully Navan, and that Interconnector is go.

That easy, was it? :rolleyes: You just picked up the phone and Dick Fearn answered and gave you the lowdown on service projections, including capacity projections, for the next few years? Hmmm! They really give out all the information over the phone? More likely you got through to a jobsworth in customer service who'd say anything to get you off the phone as you, with your annoying difficult-to-answer questions, were cutting into their internet time.

REAL commuters have daily journeys to make to and from work. If you have a particular commute to do - say Coolmine - Merrion Square or Maynooth-Temple Bar - it's of the UTMOST importance where the train terminates. Spencer Dock, and particularly Sherriff Street, is not a suitable terminus. Rather than encourage new customers, it will discourage existing ones.

murphaph

Of more importance to maynooth Line customers is the worrying omission of any mention of this line being connected to the Drogheda line. The only way extra capacity for Driogheda trains and malahide DARTs can be created in this scenario is by diverting more Maynooth trains to Sherriff Street so those other trains can take their slots at Connolly. All this confusion could have been sorted out with a simple track diagram being included in the PR, but IE don't do real information, only spin.

spacetweek

Slice wrote:

What will happen when Spencer Dock is opened is provide a dedicated terminus for Maynooth/Longford lines, free up capacity on the loop line for north-bound services of Dart/Drogheda/Enterprise and introduce the possibility of services from Kildare terminating in connolly/spencer dock.

Slice, what you're saying is true, and it's certainly the case that IE need to free up space in congested Connolly station. However I think the point that everyone is making here is that their efforts to provide extra capacity by rerouting services to Spencer Dock with no city centre stop will alienate commuters who will simply not use the services. I have a mental picture of commuters at Clonsilla or something looking up at the board which says Next Train: Spencer Dock and thinking, Well I'm not getting on that because it'll drop me off in the middle of nowhere.

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

All this confusion could have been sorted out with a simple track diagram being included in the PR, but IE don't do real information, only spin.

The Government has created a culture whereby they have the RPA and CIE are having to prove which compny deserves the most respect.

CIE now have to fight for parts of the rail transport capital investment pie. The downside of this is that it has turned public transport development in Ireland into a poker game were the RPA and CIE are sitting around a table holding their cards close to their chests.

Personally, I would rather have it this way than in the past were CIE were not even bothered to ask the Government for money to start up a commuter service to Maynooth and had to have Albert Reyonlds force them into doing it.

There is a fire under CIE's asses now (a very small one, but it's a start) and they are in direct competition for funds with the RPA. Hence this secrecy culture among both organisations now and personally I don't blame them as Transport21 on the whole was a big "thank you" to the RPA for the success of Luas.

But ultimately you're correct. A track diagram of Spencer Dock as it will look in 2008 is what's really needed before any of us get's out knickers in a twist.

icdg

spacetweek wrote:

I have a mental picture of commuters at Clonsilla or something looking up at the board which says Next Train: Spencer Dock and thinking, Well I'm not getting on that because it'll drop me off in the middle of nowhere.

Problem with that is that since they were installed about four years ago or so, the Real Time Information boards at Maynooth line stations other than Drumcondra, have, in fact, never worked! Most they've done is have the time and "Welcome to xxx Station" written on them, and now they're blank entirely. That's, of course, another issue entirely...

spacetweek

AYM wrote:

It doesn't link up with Luas - rubbish - the walk from it to the Luas stop is the same as from the Dart in Connelly to Connelly Luas. Every city where there's interchange, there's a little walk, get over it.

I did some digging on the RPA's Luas section.
It's my belief that the new Spencer Dock terminal station is not intended to be a major destination. The future underground station at this location is meant to be the biggie. According to this document, available here, there will be some kind of dedicated access from the underground station (or poss. the overground one?) to Luas Spencer Dock. Look at the upper right and upper left of the image.

So, proper integration between Luas and Spencer Underground, with a short walk for Luas -> Spencer Overground. That seems reasonable, doesn't it? The last thing you want is the overground terminus which is only going to be important in the short term to be in the way when they come back to the site to start on the Interconnector.

I think we all need to calm down and accept that maybe some thought actually has gone into this. Let's not get our anoraks in a twist.

Transport21 Fan

spacetweek wrote:

I think we all need to calm down and accept that maybe some thought actually has gone into this. Let's not get our anoraks in a twist.

Yeah, there are loads of benefits to this Docklands Station and we are dealing with a 10 year timeline towards the end of T21 and the same people who are losing it here over this Docklands station lack of absolute perfection, did the same with the MetroNorth last week. They seem to miss the point that what we are dealing with are incremental projects which will come together in 2016 and instead they lost in the engineering aspects of individual projects.

But I think the last couple of days on this thread has been fantastic entertainment. Who needs Joe Duffy!

aliveandkicking

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Yeah, there are loads of benefits to this Docklands Station and we are dealing with a 10 year timeline towards the end of T21 and the same people who are losing it here over this Docklands station lack of absolute perfection, did the same with the MetroNorth last week. They seem to miss the point that what we are dealing with are incremental projects which will come together in 2016 and instead they lost in the engineering aspects of individual projects.

But I think the last couple of days on this thread has been fantastic entertainment. Who needs Joe Duffy!

I take your point but of couse you realise the original seamlessly integrated plans of last year have changed dramatically to favour property developers instead of commuters. What's so wrong with highlighting this?

I suppose you're right, this thread has been a lot more entertaining than watching Bohs wonderful start to the season last night

Transport21 Fan

aliveandkicking wrote:

I take your point but of couse you realise the original seamlessly integrated plans of last year have changed dramatically to favour property developers instead of commuters. What's so wrong with highlighting this?

Absolutely, this was coming for a long time. Still, I was digging up maps and docs this afternoon (this Sligo weather is horrible) and adding up and pros and cons and...although this Docklands station is far from perfection, it's anything but rubbish either. As for the "full Maynooth trains Connolly...empty ones Docklands", argument...well although on the surface there is a valid argument there for now, I suspect this will not be the case in a couple of years as the Docklands are the new Dublin city centre apendage and this is not a station for today but for the future.

aliveandkicking wrote:

I suppose you're right, this thread has been a lot more entertaining than watching Bohs wonderful start to the season last night

You are a cruel man indeed. But as in the case of of T21, the same rule applies..."early days yet".

SeanW

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Absolutely, this was coming for a long time. Still, I was digging up maps and docs this afternoon (this Sligo weather is horrible) and adding up and pros and cons and...although this Docklands station is far from perfection, it's anything but rubbish either. As for the "full Maynooth trains Connolly...empty ones Docklands", argument...well although on the surface there is a valid argument there for now, I suspect this will not be the case in a couple of years as the Docklands are the new Dublin city centre apendage and this is not a station for today but for the future.

One would have thought that you above all people would have jumped on the opportunity to bash CIE and the property developers over the head this
...
this is the king of such issues.

"Station for the future" that's why you wont be able to get to it from anywhere other than Clonsilla, it doesn't connect with Luas, all of which would have been sorted but for the want of an extra 200M of track relay.

Sounds like you've been listening to DoT spinmeisters too much recently.

Slice

I find it highly unlikely that IE would abandon plans for the interconnector and I'm not convinced by anyone who deduces this from the announcement made yesterday.

Ultimately the fact remains that IE cannot meet projected demand in the city without the interconnector.

Why have posts in this thread painted the whole thing in such a bad light? Did anyone actually expected Spencer Dock AND the interconnector to happen in one go? I'm not disagreeing with any of the criticisms made but I think they're all a bit harsh because what they're being compared to are idealistic situations that have no connection with reality. What will happen when Spencer Dock is opened is provide a dedicated terminus for Maynooth/Longford lines, free up capacity on the loop line for north-bound services of Dart/Drogheda/Enterprise and introduce the possibility of services from Kildare terminating in connolly/spencer dock.

Since the beginning of the year public consultation on the Luas extention to citiwest has started, as has public consultation on the proposed metro, and IE have started construction on Spencer Dock - Thats more than what we got in all of the 90s alone.

I've just read through the entire thread before writing this and there was a distinct smell of train-spotterism in most of the criticisms made

Just to clarify my original point; What I was trying to say is that some people in this thread seem to be predisposed to a particular opinion where IE, RPA, the Government etc are concerned that seems to be prejudiced against them and paint them in a negative light regardless of what developments take place on the public transport front.

Some comments especially are so infused with venom and some kind of irrational hatred that it makes reading the thread very off-putting, and it's not confined to this thread specifically but is a common theme for any transport related thread.

For me personally, I find the preachy tone of anything from Platform 11 especially irritating. I use public transport daily and I don't agree with the approach adopted by Platform 11 so it's particularly annoying when I read press releases and contributions from what is essentially a lobby-group trying to speak as the sole body charged with judging the governments actions on transport and infrastructure and with the authoritative voice it doesn't deserve.

Yes, I know, this is completely off-topic

Zebra3

Is there enough space to build a second station in Drumcondra to serve the extra services that they plan to put on the Newcommon or Midland or whatever it's called line?

This would allow for bus connections to the airport, and it wouldn't be too far from the city centre. 10 minute walk to O'Connell St?

Also, it would be crucial in delivering people into the area for events in Croke Park.

Pfungstadter

Nothing to do!!! Humm.

Atleast cie are building something

murphaph

Zebra3 wrote:

Is there enough space to build a second station in Drumcondra to serve the extra services that they plan to put on the Newcommon or Midland or whatever it's called line?

This would allow for bus connections to the airport, and it wouldn't be too far from the city centre. 10 minute walk to O'Connell St?

Also, it would be crucial in delivering people into the area for events in Croke Park.

There's certainly room just to the east of Drumcondra Road to slap a station in without having to cut into retaining walls. It'd be pretty straightforward actually. Will it happen? Who the hell knows.

Slice, you gotta understand that Spencer Dock was one HUUUGE empty site which could and should have provided seamless connections throughout, both between interconnector, Luas and Spencer Dock Surface Station-all at one location and done the world over in hundreds of places in non-brownfield sites. There really was no need to add one unnecessary second to someone's journey down there. It used to be covered in tracks carrying the heaviest freight trains so was well able for comparitively light passenger trains at any location. It came down to Treasury Holdings and CIE in a dirty deal that saw passengers shafted yet again I'm afraid. We're seeing the same sh!t between the RPA and CIE with their seeming inability (and general couldn't care less attitude) to providing interchange at Cross Gunns Bridge.

If everyone had your attitude of just 'leaving them to it', they'd get away with building two (effective) metro lines at right angles to each other, passing metres away from each other under empty space but not providing an interchange between them. Is this really what you want your tax money spent on?

DerekP11

Slice wrote:

For me personally, I find the preachy tone of anything from Platform 11 especially irritating. I use public transport daily and I don't agree with the approach adopted by Platform 11 so it's particularly annoying when I read press releases and contributions from what is essentially a lobby-group trying to speak as the sole body charged with judging the governments actions on transport and infrastructure and with the authoritative voice it doesn't deserve.

So sorry that you think the Platform 11 tone is "preachy". But I'm happy in the knowledge that it's not as "preachy" as the tone adopted by the Minister for Transport, Irish Rail and the RPA when the opinions of commuters are offered. The above mentioned, are the one's with responsibility for implementing rail transport projects, on good salaries and using your tax contribution. (assumimg you're resident in the country) Platform 11 is voluntary, observes and offers opinion and costs you nothing.

As for our approach and your dislike of it, you are entitled to that.

We never speak in a way that may portray us as the sole body charged with judging the Governments actions on transport and infrastructure and we've never claimed to be. We talk about rail transport specifically and are accutely aware of the contribution of other organisations such as West on Track, Meath on Track and the various rail user groups across the country. (Some of which we assist upon request)

Furthermore, I don't for one minute, think we have an authoritive voice and there is no evidence to suggest that Platform 11 has ever thought that. We simply use nearly all of our free time trying to influence the development and operation of rail transport, based on research, comparison studies and customer feedback. Irish Rail don't like it. The RPA don't like it and the Dept. of Transport don't like it. Thats probably because we were the first to attempt what we are doing. Its not perfect, but its a damn good start. While it annoys you, it actually inspires many others and inspiration is a seed worth sowing. Without that you have nothing and any kind of change can never be achieved.

Transport21 Fan

Was tuning around the radio tonight and caught a report about Dublin Bus will be announcing several new services into the Docklands which will use the new train station as the hub. Sounds promising. I have no idea who was saying this - they just went into the next report about drink driving ads for immigrants. Has anybody heard any more of this?

BuffyBot

there is no evidence to suggest that Platform 11 has ever thought that.

OT: did you ever read the posts of P11 Comms

Transport21 Fan

Some more here about DB services to the Docklands here:

http://www.dublinpeople.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=888&Itemid=49

Wheels in motion for Docklands station Print E-mail
THE commencement of work on a new rail station at Spencer Dock in Dublin city centre was announced last week.Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen TD, said that work will begin on the new Docklands Station, close to Connolly Station, without any disruption to existing rail services.
The Government has promised that the new station will open in 2007. The news comes hot on the heels of the metro announcement the previous week.
Speaking at a sod turning ceremony, Minister Cullen said the beginning of work on the Docklands Station offered both immediate and medium term benefits to commuters.
“Docklands is an immediate, practical, value-for-money transport solution,” he said. “Connolly Station cannot cater for any additional peak-time trains.
“While the DART re-signalling project, when completed, will allow for some additional services, we need a quicker solution. Docklands Station is that solution.
“With Docklands in place, we have a new station alongside Connolly and thereby will be able to get more people on more trains into the heart of the city.”

Minister Cullen said the integration of Docklands with Luas, bus, road and other rail transport, reflected what the Government is working to achieve.
“With Docklands integrating with Luas, it means commuters can be connected to the heart of the city centre, Connolly Station, Heuston Station and onwards to Tallaght and ultimately to Citywest,” he said.
“Dublin Bus plans to extend its services to the Docklands and the Financial Services Centre area,” he said. “The new road bridge planned at Mayor Street will also facilitate easy access to the South city area. This represents real integration, offering people convenience and choice.”
Senator Cyprian Brady (FF) welcomed the commencement of work on the new Docklands Station
“It will ease the pressure on the nearby Connolly Station, allowing for extra services to operate from there,” he said.
“The turning of the sod is the first major sign in the North Inner City that Transport 21 is becoming a reality.
“The building of the station will greatly improve access to the Docklands and will make the area more attractive for further investment and jobs.”

DerekP11

BuffyBot wrote:

OT: did you ever read the posts of P11 Comms

Yes I did.

That's why at our last AGM the entire organisation was explained and opened to all interested on the basis of responsibility and accountability, in the interests of rail customers.

The new committee continues to work towards making P11 accessible and more responsible in its day to day business.

P11comms is no longer associated with the organisation and the posts of P11 members on various boards (where possible) are monitored, in order to prevent any situation arising that might discredit the organisation and its policies. Obviously we are not responsible for the opinions of members that are expressed in an undeclared fashion.

Any negative opinions formed, in relation to P11, prior to May 2005, have no bearing on the existing committee. That would be unfair to the many new people involved. As an organisation we continue to build on the positives in our past and deal with any negativity(where possible) that arose since our inception.

The website outlines our current position and background.

Zebra3

murphaph wrote:

There's certainly room just to the east of Drumcondra Road to slap a station in without having to cut into retaining walls. It'd be pretty straightforward actually. Will it happen? Who the hell knows.

Yeah, I was down that way by chance on Monday and there's defo enough space for a station, but considering how long it took them to build Clontarf Road (13 years after the DART started?)..... :rolleyes:

Transport21 Fan

Zebra3 wrote:

Yeah, I was down that way by chance on Monday and there's defo enough space for a station, but considering how long it took them to build Clontarf Road (13 years after the DART started?)..... :rolleyes:

Does that old guy still grow hiw rhubarb alongside the tracks at Glasnevin then? I was always amazed how CIE turned a blind eye to this blantant tresspass of their property.

Victor

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7357&lang=ENG&loc=1887

Work begins on new City Centre 'Docklands' Rail Station
9 March 2006

New Station to remove 10,000 cars a day from Dublin's streets

20,000 new rail passengers a day, 10,000 cars a day removed from the streets, a train to Maynooth every 15 minutes, integration with Luas to Tallaght/Citywest and the enabling new rail services to Dunboyne. These are among the benefits of the new Docklands Rail Station, a key part of the Government's Transport 21 plan.

Transport Minister, Martin Cullen today (9th March 2006) announced the commencement of work on the new City Centre rail station. The Docklands Station, which will be built without causing any disruption to existing services, will be open from next year, 2007.

Speaking at the announcement, Minister Cullen said the start of work on the Docklands Station offered both immediate and medium term benefits to commuters.

He said: "Docklands is an immediate, practical, value-for-money transport solution. Connolly Station cannot cater for any additional peak-time trains. While the DART resignalling project, when completed, will allow for some additional services, we need a quicker solution. Docklands Station is that solution. With Docklands in place, we have a new Station alongside Connolly and thereby get more people on more trains into the heart of the City."

Minister Cullen said the integration of Docklands with Luas, Bus, road and other rail transport, reflected what the Government is working to achieve.

He said: "With Docklands integrating with Luas, it means we can connect commuters to the heart of the city centre, Connolly Station, Heuston Station and onwards to Tallaght and ultimately to Citywest.

"Dublin Bus plans to extend its services to the Docklands and the Financial Services centre area. The new road bridge planned at Mayor Street will also facilitate easy access to the South city area. This represents real integration, offering people convenience and choice."

In addition to Maynooth, Minister Cullen also mentioned the benefits of a new Docklands Station to people in Dunboyne and ultimately Navan.

He said: "The Docklands Station essentially marks the commencement of the first phase of the Navan Rail line development, a key component of Transport 21. When the work to re-open the old railway line between Clonsilla and Dunboyne is completed in 2009, all the services on that line will operate into this new city-centre station. This will go some way towards alleviating the hardship of long-distance commuters who are not currently served by a viable public transport alternative to the private car. And by extending this service to Navan, it means the benefits will be further again", he concluded.

ENDS

Further info: Dan Pender 01 6041090 / 087 2313415

Veronica Scanlan 01 6041087 / 087 6430622

KEY STATISTICS OF THE DOCKLANDS STATION

Deliver a peak rail service every 15 minutes on the Maynooth commuter line from 2007

Allow for further expansion of Maynooth line services, and allow the development of the new rail line from Clonsilla to Dunboyne/M3 park and ride

Deliver 5,000 additional passengers a day on opening, growing to 20,000 passengers a day as services expand

Remove over 2,500 cars a day from roads daily on opening, building to 10,000 a day

Allow up to 5 million extra journeys by rail per annum

Bring a strong public transport service to the growing Docklands/IFSC area

Connect with the LUAS red line (serving Tallaght and ultimately Citywest) extension to the Docklands.

Maynooth to Docklands in 40 minutes

Clonsilla to Docklands in 23 minutes

Will be built without causing any disruption to existing services

Ensures Interconnector can be built without disruption to Docklands services

Together with city centre resignalling project (completion 2009), increase city centre train capacity from 12 trains per hour per direction to 20 trains per hour per direction

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Was tuning around the radio tonight and caught a report about Dublin Bus will be announcing several new services into the Docklands which will use the new train station as the hub. Sounds promising. I have no idea who was saying this - they just went into the next report about drink driving ads for immigrants. Has anybody heard any more of this?

I would love to know how they plan to do this when there is a 7.5t limit on the bridge (not that its obeyed).

NavanJunction1

Speech by Mr. Martin Cullen T.D. Minister for Transport at the Official Launch of Construction of the Docklands Station 9th March 2006


9 March 2006
I am delighted to be here today to mark the commencement of construction of the new Docklands Station. Another cornerstone in Transport 21 is being put in place here today. The Docklands Station will play a critical role in bringing our vision for integrated transport to reality.

This is a very important project for a number of reasons, not least because it makes such a major contribution towards the sustainable development of the Docklands area. The new station will enhance opportunities for access into this dynamic new quarter of our capital city, which is also a rapidly growing destination point for commuters and for visitors to the city.

In purely transport terms, however, this project translates in the short-term into a practical, value-for-money measure by providing more rail services along the Western line as far as Maynooth. The growth in demand for services along this line has been unprecedented. Since the year 2000, passenger numbers have risen from 3,400 to almost 10,000 per day.

Only last December I announced that we were providing three additional peak services to Maynooth to help cater for this demand. However, further capacity and service-level improvements are necessary to cater for the projected population growth and demand growth even in the short to medium term.

Unfortunately, Connolly Station cannot cater for any additional peak-time traffic. While the DART resignalling project, when completed, will allow for some additional services, we need a quicker solution. Docklands Station is that solution. With Docklands in place, we have a new Station alongside Connolly and thereby get more people on more trains into the heart of the City.

And crucially, Docklands will integrate with other transport modes. The extension of the Luas red line from Connolly Station to the Point Depot - the Public Inquiry for which is currently underway - will conveniently integrate from the new station.

This means that we can connect commuters to the heart of the city centre, Connolly Station, Heuston Station and onwards to all stops to Tallaght and ultimately to Citywest.

Dublin Bus plans to extend its services to the Docklands and the Financial Services centre area. The new road bridge planned at Mayor Street will also facilitate easy access to the South city area.

This is what we are working to achieve in Government - real integration, offering people convenience and choice.

The benefits of a Docklands Station are not just to be felt in the City. I have already mentioned what it means for the people of Maynooth and passengers on the Western line. Add to this benefits for Dunboyne and ultimately Navan.

The Docklands station essentially marks the commencement of the first phase of the Navan Rail line development, a key component of Transport 21. When the work to reopen the old railway line between Clonsilla and Dunboyne is completed in 2009, all the services on that line will operate into this new city-centre station. This will offer commuters a real alternative to the car. And by extending this service to Navan, it means the benefits will be further again.

In the longer term, the Dunboyne line will form part of an extended, 2-line DART network and will operate into the Interconnector tunnel.

Iarnród Éireann is to be congratulated today on how quickly it has taken up its mandate since the announcement of Transport 21. The Docklands station is only one of four major Transport 21 projects on which construction will start in 2006 - also to commence this year are the Cork Commuter Rail project, the Kildare Line project and the new train depot in Portlaoise.

It is now abundantly clear to all who want to see that Transport 21 has real traction, is being implemented and will be delivered.

Docklands Stations will be a major, new integrated hub in the world-class transport network which Transport 21 will produce.

More immediately, it will have a very positive impact on the passenger experience and the quality and range of commuter services which the train offers.

This progress bodes very well for the implementation of Transport 21. It is also critical for the role that the railway is to play in achieving modal shift from cars and more sustainable commuting behaviour generally.

I wish Iarnród Éireann every success in constructing and operating this new station and I look forward to the improvements it will deliver to commuters.

ENDS


http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7445&lang=ENG&loc=1081

paulm17781

Martin Cullen wrote:

In the longer term, the Dunboyne line will form part of an extended, 2-line DART network and will operate into the Interconnector tunnel.

No it won't Martin. It will run to Bray. :rolleyes:

D'Peoples Voice

paulm17781 wrote:

No it won't Martin. It will run to Bray. :rolleyes:

Seeing as how every one of these speeches are supposed to be written on his behalf by his officials, and then approved by his PR people, this seems like a stupid mistake by his officials! Or else they wanted him to look stupid! As if he needed the help!

Winters

paulm17781 wrote:

No it won't Martin. It will run to Bray. :rolleyes:

Or else it will operate into the interconnector..

paulm17781

Winters wrote:

Or else it will operate into the interconnector..

No it won't. If you do that you are creating conflicts across the interconnector and the loop line. It defeats the purpose of conflict free movements post-interconnector.