Is anyone else fed up of Dublin?

Opportunist

hi all,

I mean don't get me wrong I generally like Dublin, but all this rat race mullark is getting a bit irritating. I mean everything seems to have got out of hand here in the last few years. Mainly the cost and quality of living. Generally the customer service in shops getting worse and I'm nearly stunned if a shop assistant says 'have a nice day'. Of course there are the odd exceptions, but what the hell has happened to Dublin lately? Now this is gonna sound really petty but a friend of mine got a bagel today & asked for a little bit of extra topping and they charged her nearly a euro extra! I know it's not much, but you'd think they would make a small exception for regular customers. Everything seems to be about getting one up. I used an internet cafe in Inchicore the other day and it was a particular fee for the hour. Quite literally I spent 1 min and 50 seconds on the email as I was only checking something nb and the feicer charged me the hourly fee. This place does my head in...

apologies for rant, anyone had any similar experiences?

Opp

Cantab.

Opportunist wrote:

hi all,

I mean don't get me wrong I generally like Dublin, but all this rat race mullark is getting a bit irritating. I mean everything seems to have got out of hand here in the last few years. Mainly the cost and quality of living. Generally the customer service in shops getting worse and I'm nearly stunned if a shop assistant says 'have a nice day'. Of course there are the odd exceptions, but what the hell has happened to Dublin lately? Now this is gonna sound really petty but a friend of mine got a bagel today & asked for a little bit of extra topping and they charged her nearly a euro extra! I know it's not much, but you'd think they would make a small exception for regular customers. Everything seems to be about getting one up. I used an internet cafe in Inchicore the other day and it was a particular fee for the hour. Quite literally I spent 1 min and 50 seconds on the email as I was only checking something nb and the feicer charged me the hourly fee. This place does my head in...

apologies for rant, anyone had any similar experiences?

Opp

Any person who wants a job can work. And get paid well at that. What were once luxuries (wide screen TVs, socialising etc.) are now demanded by people.

You should count yourself lucky and stop moaning - there's a huge amount of opportunity out there for you if you just go out and grab some of the action.

You don't like the bagel shop? Well then don't go back there. Simple rule of capitalism.

Opportunist

Cantab,

I didn't mention anything about jobs or luxuries?! So i dunno where you got that from. For your information I have a very good career and am not short of opportunities either, but it is a free world and I was commenting on the general lack of quality customer service lately in Dublin tbh. Point taken about bagel place. I don't think I'll be heading back anytime soon.

Bluehair

Opportunist I can fully sympatise.

The city, and the country in many ways, has gone to the dogs.

Ridiculous house prices, one of the highest costs of living in the world, appauling health services, infrastructure 10years behind where it should be in relation to the economy. Personal debt hitting new records every quarter as we chase all those luxuries we can now 'afford'.

But hey it's the American way! Or so it seems. If thats your thing, working your balls off to chase more and more material wealth, then good luck to you.

Personally i'm more inclined towards living somewhere with a decent quality of life, where every service/retailer isn't out to gouge you and community still matters.

Opportunist, I think thats pretty common across the country. Dublin was like that 5 years ago when I was living there, and it was too much for me. I moved to Thurles (Ugh. Horrible place), and finally to Cork. Cork started off ok, but i've noticed a downtrend of niceness from shop staff and the like.

I think its more to do with Irish people themselves. I don't Irish people to be as friendly as they used to be. More reserved, less open to be friendly (almost as if they're afraid what they might lose by doing so). Still, there are still many people in the country that are lovely, and many shops that do treat customers well. Shop around.

As Cantab. says, the choice is there. There are other places to go. Thankfully.

whizzbang

I have a sneaky feeling that the bad service we are getting now is down to two things

1. Any Irish person in a services job feels they are "above that sort of thing" and secretly resent the customers.
2. Customers are getting more demanding and in turn are treating service staff like crap. The services people are just reacting to you the way that the bulk of peeople they deal with every day deals with them. I find the same thing, I make a point of being friendly to people in shops and you get either a great reaction or they look at you like are a nut case or something!

I'm thinking of starting a "lets be nice to people to serve us" group * to try and turn this around one encounter at a time!

J

*this is a lie

1. Any Irish person in a services job feels they are "above that sort of thing" and secretly resent the customers.

True. I'd agree with you on this one.

2. Customers are getting more demanding and in turn are treating service staff like crap. The services people are just reacting to you the way that the bulk of peeople they deal with every day deals with them. I find the same thing, I make a point of being friendly to people in shops and you get either a great reaction or they look at you like are a nut case or something!

Also true. I'm primarily a credit controller, however I also do tech support. Customers have gradually gotten more rude over the last few years, which makes it hard to be pleasent to people. Still, in many ways, this is a response to the crap service we can get from customer service. Catch-22.

I think the influx of immigrants may help this, since people will ahve to fight a bit for jobs, meaning that employees in such jobs may have to be nicer to customers.

whizzbang

Deleted User wrote:

True. I'd agree with you on this one.



Also true. I'm primarily a credit controller, however I also do tech support. Customers have gradually gotten more rude over the last few years, which makes it hard to be pleasent to people. Still, in many ways, this is a response to the crap service we can get from customer service. Catch-22.

I think the influx of immigrants may help this, since people will ahve to fight a bit for jobs, meaning that employees in such jobs may have to be nicer to customers.

I generally find immigrants give the friendliest service but unfortunatly some of them seem to be dulling a bit too! I guess being treated like sh1t can get to anyone after a while.

Archeron

I spent 9 years dealing with the Irish industry in my job, and thought nothing of it. Now I deal primarily with the UK, but also mainland Europe and in comparison, Irish people are really obnoxious, impatient and unfriendly. There is also a distinct lack of professionalism in business here, and the amount of foul language that is used is sometimes shocking. Does anyone really think its acceptable to be f'ing and blinding at people you dont even know? I used to think we Irish were the nicest in the world, but I've changed that opinion of late.

whizzbang

Archeron wrote:

I spent 9 years dealing with the Irish industry in my job, and thought nothing of it. Now I deal primarily with the UK, but also mainland Europe and in comparison, Irish people are really obnoxious, impatient and unfriendly. There is also a distinct lack of professionalism in business here, and the amount of foul language that is used is sometimes shocking. Does anyone really think its acceptable to be f'ing and blinding at people you dont even know? I used to think we Irish were the nicest in the world, but I've changed that opinion of late.

I have to agree here. I got 2 buses in the UK last weekend, 1 driver was polite and efficient the other two were polite, efficient and funny to boot! Its a pity some people in Ireland don't take more pride in their work and how they deal with others.

Mutz

My opinion is that people who've never had much money, find themselves with plenty of it and now believe they are lord muck. I've worked in the services sector since I was 16 (9 years now - holy shiv!) and have had to put up with all sorts but seriously it's gone mad lately. People *demand* to have such and such when you're thinking to yourself "oh god this person is a tosser". Go out for a stroll and stop demanding materials!

I also blame the M50 for all this madness!

kizzyr

Mutz wrote:

My opinion is that people who've never had much money, find themselves with plenty of it and now believe they are lord muck. I've worked in the services sector since I was 16 (9 years now - holy shiv!) and have had to put up with all sorts but seriously it's gone mad lately. People *demand* to have such and such when you're thinking to yourself "oh god this person is a tosser". Go out for a stroll and stop demanding materials!

I also blame the M50 for all this madness!

I agree totally. When I was at college like many other people I had part time jobs in shops,pubs etc and never in a million years did I treat customers the way I find they are treated on an almost daily basis now. Isn't it sad that it stands out when someone is nice and friendly to you in a shop rather than it being the norm:( As a customer now if I am treated badly by someone in a shop I will say it to them,not in a snotty way but I do point out that as a cusomer they are there to actually serve me at the counter, hand me my change and not spend the entire time on the phone to their friends discussing what they got up to with their boyfriend the night before. Its all well and good if they want to bitch about me when I've gone I couldn't care less about that but you have to be nice to the customer its the number one rule.
Also the bloody M50,arrrrghhhh I HATE this road with a passion. I have to travel on it everyday to get to and from work (I could use the back roads of death but I'm kinda fond of being alive so don't) and leave my house (in Clonsilla) well before 7.00am to make sure I don't get stuck in the worst of it. Although on Saturday I was coming back from Rathfarnham and it took me from 1.45pm until 4.45pm to get home because of a crane that was parked near the Lucan exit.:mad:

Calina

I get the impression that many Irish people forget that customers pay their salaries.

I was in a major chainstore one evening and wanted to try on some clothes. I had to get the little tag telling the world just how many clothes I was trying on from a staff member who was absolutely put out about being disturbed from her conversation with some of the floor staff. She was uniformed by the way. The conversation - which I couldn't actually avoid hearing - was along the lines of "When are you getting out of this sh1thole tonight?" and "I f**king hate this f**king sh1thole" and "working here is sh1te". It's not what I would call professional. I intended to write to the local manager shortly afterwards but just never had time. I still regret it now, even a year or two later.

In general, I find Irish people much, much ruder than they used to be, from the generalised obnoxiousness driving, and being shoved out of the way walking down Grafton Street. It's nothing much to be proud of. There are always exceptions, certainly...but they're getting rarer.

Archeron

Here a good one for you. In a major music store in Liffey Valley (can I name and shame???). After queueing for 25 mins to get to the till, (there were 8 people behind the counter, 2 serving and 6 trying to figure out how to put vouchers thorugh). Get to the till, and this manicly depressed looking bird just looks at me and holds out her hand to take my items. Fair enough, i dont expect pleasantries anymore. The guy on the till next was doing something on the desk, but not actually serving anyone.
Young woman with a child comes over to ask advise as to where a certain DVD boxset is. The guy looks at her, rolls his eyes to heaven, and in the best los angeles spoiled rotten vally girl way says "cant you see I'm BUSEEEE" Woman looked at me to see of he actually said that, and started laughing, gently put her app €100 worth of items on the counter beside him and walked out of the store. This particular store seems to be notorious for this behavior from the staff, and as a result I never go there. I was only there this time because somebody bought me store vouchers for christmas.
Without naming, I bet most people know which store this is anyway.

MorningStar

Go travel and see what other cities are like and maybe you can comment on DUblin with a balanced approach. See what the locals have and do not have then you might get an idea of how good Dublin is.

Notice the youth in Paris, Brussels, Lisbon, Madrid, Rome. Lots of them can't get jobs. The cities have huge amount of derilict buildings. Look at the size of their home in the cities and you may realise Dublin density is really low.

I am sick of people moaning in Ireland. Everything is a rip off according to most yet the basics of economics can explain it. I remeber dublin in the 70s and 80s and I rather what we have now but wish people would shut up moaning.

The_Conductor

Hope no-one minds my moving this here- think its more AH than Accomodation/Property.

Cheers,

Shane

MorningStar

MorningStar wrote:

Go travel and see what other cities are like and maybe you can comment on DUblin with a balanced approach. See what the locals have and do not have then you might get an idea of how good Dublin is.

I have travelled extensively, both as a tourist, and also for work. Even ruling out cities outside of Europe, we can compare those from mainland europe. And comparing the responses from staff in restaraunts, shops, bars, public transport etc, Dublin and other Irish cities fall far short.

I lived in Dublin for a year, and I've visited it as a tourist. I don't see much difference. You still get the same amount of ignorance, and contempt.

Notice the youth in Paris, Brussels, Lisbon, Madrid, Rome. Lots of them can't get jobs. The cities have huge amount of derilict buildings. Look at the size of their home in the cities and you may realise Dublin density is really low.

Which is probably why they try to behave better in their jobs. They're actually grateful that they have their jobs, and don't want to cause offense to their customers. In ireland its quite easy to get a job if you really want one, so you can always move elsewhere should you get into trouble.

I am sick of people moaning in Ireland. Everything is a rip off according to most yet the basics of economics can explain it. I remeber dublin in the 70s and 80s and I rather what we have now but wish people would shut up moaning.

Sure we have more than in the 80's but we pay more also. Alot more for just about everything. And we continue to fail to receive the benefits for those taxes that we pay.

Fine. You're sick of the complaints. I'm sick of the governments lack of response to those complaints. Just about every time there's a problem raised, the government starts a survey that'll take a few years to complete and costs more money, as a delaying tactic.

Added to which we see a drop in the friendliness of people in general. Burry your head in the sand if you want, and continue to see Ireland as a wonderfully friendly country. Alot of people disagree with you. :rolleyes:

Archeron

MorningStar wrote:

Go travel and see what other cities are like and maybe you can comment on DUblin with a balanced approach. See what the locals have and do not have then you might get an idea of how good Dublin is.

Notice the youth in Paris, Brussels, Lisbon, Madrid, Rome. Lots of them can't get jobs. The cities have huge amount of derilict buildings. Look at the size of their home in the cities and you may realise Dublin density is really low.

I am sick of people moaning in Ireland. Everything is a rip off according to most yet the basics of economics can explain it. I remeber dublin in the 70s and 80s and I rather what we have now but wish people would shut up moaning.

The point still stands that people in Ireland like to believe that they are the nicest in the world, while over the past 10 years they have changed to the point where I find the Irish to be among the most obnoxious people I've met. And that takes into account people I know from Eastern and Western Europe, the US and parts of the far east. Regardless of what we have in terms of material goods, its the attitude of so many people here in Ireland that sucks. I am Irish, and I love my country, but I just wish people could treat each other with a modicum of decency instead of the "I really dont want to be here, so I will treat you with as much disdain as possible" attitude that seems to prevail in modern Ireland. I always make a point to be nice to staff wherever I go, and in some cases, its returned, but in the vast majority, people just like to treat each other like dirt. And this is not a moan, its a comment on society generally, and the way people's attitudes are changing.

whizzbang

Archeron wrote:

The point still stands that people in Ireland like to believe that they are the nicest in the world, while over the past 10 years they have changed to the point where I find the Irish to be among the most obnoxious people I've met. And that takes into account people I know from Eastern and Western Europe, the US and parts of the far east. Regardless of what we have in terms of material goods, its the attitude of so many people here in Ireland that sucks. I am Irish, and I love my country, but I just wish people could treat each other with a modicum of decency instead of the "I really dont want to be here, so I will treat you with as much disdain as possible" attitude that seems to prevail in modern Ireland. I always make a point to be nice to staff wherever I go, and in some cases, its returned, but in the vast majority, people just like to treat each other like dirt. And this is not a moan, its a comment on society generally, and the way people's attitudes are changing.

here, here! we definitly need an attitude shift in this country! People have become much ruder. for example last night my flat mate was shopping Cornalscourt. He was queueing for the checkout when he remembered he had forgotten something so he popped his basket down and ran off for 2 seconds to pick it up. In the mean time a woman with a huge trolly of stuff pushed his basket to the side and started to offload her stuff. When my friend got back to the queue and said "Sorry, but I was next" she looked at him like "who do you think you are?!". There is nothing wrong with chancing your arm, but when you look down on people like they are scum for pointing it out to you then you need an attitude change.

My horror is going to the post office. The staff are usually quite friendly but you'll always meet some obnoxious people there. Women with prams banging them repeatedly into the back of your legs, people skipping queues, etc. Pain in the ass. Still the old people are quite docile, and quite nice.

MorningStar

Deleted User wrote:

I have travelled extensively, both as a tourist, and also for work. Even ruling out cities outside of Europe, we can compare those from mainland europe. And comparing the responses from staff in restaraunts, shops, bars, public transport etc, Dublin and other Irish cities fall far short.

I lived in Dublin for a year, and I've visited it as a tourist. I don't see much difference. You still get the same amount of ignorance, and contempt.

Sorry where are you talking about? PAris has incredibbly rude staff everywhere completly notorious for it. London maybe? Wait no they are so rude on the streets and in most places of service. THe OP mentioned cost of living as the big issue.
I find many people who "live" in Dublin for a while and then claim to know the place never really live here. They stay here, go home at the weekends and stay with their own friends or other people not from Dublin. THey make pockets of their comfort zones.

Deleted User wrote:

Which is probably why they try to behave better in their jobs. They're actually grateful that they have their jobs, and don't want to cause offense to their customers. In ireland its quite easy to get a job if you really want one, so you can always move elsewhere should you get into trouble.

Nothing like the fear of being jobless to make sure these people treat you better. I mean customers are always so polite:(

Deleted User wrote:

Sure we have more than in the 80's but we pay more also. Alot more for just about everything. And we continue to fail to receive the benefits for those taxes that we pay.

Yes becasue so EVERYBODY can buy things we have a high minimum wage. Do you want to pay people less? Give them less worker rights.

Deleted User wrote:

Fine. You're sick of the complaints. I'm sick of the governments lack of response to those complaints. Just about every time there's a problem raised, the government starts a survey that'll take a few years to complete and costs more money, as a delaying tactic.

So you want the government to force people to be polite in shops? THis is the incoherrant ranting that I hate. Completely unfocused and blame thrown at everybody yet no solution.

Deleted User wrote:

Added to which we see a drop in the friendliness of people in general. Burry your head in the sand if you want, and continue to see Ireland as a wonderfully friendly country. Alot of people disagree with you. :rolleyes:

Actually I think it is the people who complain like you just did are the problem. They go into the shop pick up something they want (don't need) and grumble to themselves about the price(I can get this in India for half a cent Eddie Hobbes told me). By the time they get to the top of the que (grumbling all the time about waiting and governments inaction at increasing que speed) get to the till and the busy member of staff doesn't give you the appropriate greating (as you see it) so you throw the money at them . The member of staff deals with this all day everyday and you expect them to say "have a nice day":rolleyes:

What goes around comes around. You want a polite friendly place start being polite and firendly. If you don't like the service somewher complin to somebody. Don't yell,scream or otherwise just politely tell them what the problem is and tell them what you would think is better service.

THe solution is in your hands stop waiting for the government to fix it.

ivan087

there's a huge difference between complaining and rudeness.

i think when most irish people complain they think they have to raise their voice and be very rude and horrible to the person they are dealing with.

if people want to complain, its amazing what a smile and a 'im sorry to bring this up but...' can do.

when i was working in the service industry and someone complained in a nice manner i would go out of my way to help them. if they were rude to me, i would make it 10 times as hard for them. this is not professional, but i didnt care, i just wanted to be treated like a human being.

This isn't supposed to offend anyone, its just my own personal feelings.

I've walked by myself during the night in New York, Los Angeles, San Diego and, even though these places can be extremely dangerous (with the exception of San Diego I suppose), I felt completely safe. Yet I can't go near Dublin without feeling on edge. Like something is going to happen with me. There's just things about it I don't like, but I can't put my finger on it exactly.

Calina

MorningStar,

I'm not entirely sure you're qualified to comment, to be honest.

FYI I live in Dublin now and have done since 1999, and I lived in Dublin between 1990 and 1994. I have also lived in London, Brussels, Paris, Munich, and various rural parts of France, Germany and Finland. We'll skip over the list of cities that I've visited as a tourist. I'd be stunned if you had actually lived in what was it in your earlier post oh yeah, Paris, Brussels, Lisbon, Madrid, Rome.

Paris may well have a reputation for generalised rudeness. But my experience is that their retail staff are, across the board, far, far, far more polite and helpful than the generalised obnoxiousness and ignorance that currently passes for customer service in retail giants in Ireland. I'd also say that in fact, that generalised obnoxiousness and ignorance was not such an issue 5 or six years ago, but it sure as hell is now. If you want to pretend it's not happening, then that's your prerogative.

I didn't complain about prices. I have my own views on that, but strangely enough that's not my issue here. I complained about retail staff in one of the biggest chain stores in the country describing their work place as a sh1thole and how they f**king hated their jobs in front of people like me who actually pay their salary. This has never happened me in France. I go into standard high street chain stores in Paris and the staff say hello. They say hello where staff in this country can't even be bothered to get off their bloody mobile phones to answer a simple question.

ToxicPaddy

I know a few people who are either Irish living abroad or from abroad and used to live in Ireland.. when any of the come back here for a visit, most of
them comment on 2 things..

1 - How well the country is doing judging by the amount development, amoutn of new shops on the high streets, quality and range of products available in the shops and the cars/houses people have and the general standard of living..

2 - How blunt and rude Irish people seem to have become.

I have to say, I have seen a lot more of it and do notice it a lot more when they mention it.

Its a pity as Ireland was always known a place where people are friendly, easy going and accommodating to the foreign visitor and we used to pride ourselves on that.

Its great that we have a booming economy, employment is plentiful for those who want it and anyone who is willing to put in the effort can make a very good life for themselves..

But it appears that we have paid a very high price for this success.

MorningStar

Deleted User wrote:

This isn't supposed to offend anyone, its just my own personal feelings.

I've walked by myself during the night in New York, Los Angeles, San Diego and, even though these places can be extremely dangerous (with the exception of San Diego I suppose), I felt completely safe. Yet I can't go near Dublin without feeling on edge. Like something is going to happen with me. There's just things about it I don't like, but I can't put my finger on it exactly.

Well it is all about perception you are more likely to be murdered in any US state than you are in any part of Ireland. Same goes for violent robbery etc... The uS is the only modern western country to allow the death penalty (allowed on those who have the mental ability of a 10 year old child). The poverty gap is a lot worse than Ireland. I guess it really comes down to what you think is important.
I would rather rude staff than the fake "have a nice day" treatment you get in the US. I have also seen what some people who work in "service" industries live like in the US. Nothing to emulate in my opinion. No offense to any Americans but it certainly is not the land of the free or very democratic. Nobody poor will be the president there.

DaBreno

Archeron wrote:

Here a good one for you. In a major music store in Liffey Valley (can I name and shame???). After queueing for 25 mins to get to the till, (there were 8 people behind the counter, 2 serving and 6 trying to figure out how to put vouchers thorugh). Get to the till, and this manicly depressed looking bird just looks at me and holds out her hand to take my items. Fair enough, i dont expect pleasantries anymore. The guy on the till next was doing something on the desk, but not actually serving anyone.
Young woman with a child comes over to ask advise as to where a certain DVD boxset is. The guy looks at her, rolls his eyes to heaven, and in the best los angeles spoiled rotten vally girl way says "cant you see I'm BUSEEEE" Woman looked at me to see of he actually said that, and started laughing, gently put her app ?100 worth of items on the counter beside him and walked out of the store. This particular store seems to be notorious for this behavior from the staff, and as a result I never go there. I was only there this time because somebody bought me store vouchers for christmas.
Without naming, I bet most people know which store this is anyway.

Hmmmmm, I just may know this spot. Staffed by wee Emo's and always has a queue of 10 people of more that never seems to move. Thankfully Ive never had to converse with the "staff". The place obviously hires em coz they're cheap but then you get what you pay for.
Mind you, I wouldnt go to Liffey valley expecting customer service. The place was Exorcised of Good Will shortly after being built.

MorningStar

MorningStar wrote:

Well it is all about perception you are more likely to be murdered in any US state than you are in any part of Ireland. Same goes for violent robbery etc... The uS is the only modern western country to allow the death penalty (allowed on those who have the mental ability of a 10 year old child). The poverty gap is a lot worse than Ireland. I guess it really comes down to what you think is important.
I would rather rude staff than the fake "have a nice day" treatment you get in the US. I have also seen what some people who work in "service" industries live like in the US. Nothing to emulate in my opinion. No offense to any Americans but it certainly is not the land of the free or very democratic. Nobody poor will be the president there.

And very unlikely that anybody black or female shall become president there either. But thats a different topic.

Anyways, I suppose you're right. I just always feel very uneasy around Dublin, I never fully understood why. It might have something to do with my parents telling us to lock our doors and roll up our windows anytime we went to Dublin as children. Never fully understood why ..

I've always found that its best to be kind to every customer I get where I work. I believe that you should treat everyone as you would want them to treat you back. That and I've always found that if you're kind and chatty, you're more likely to get tips!

Saskia

Calina wrote:

I get the impression that many Irish people forget that customers pay their salaries.

I was in a major chainstore one evening and wanted to try on some clothes. I had to get the little tag telling the world just how many clothes I was trying on from a staff member who was absolutely put out about being disturbed from her conversation with some of the floor staff. She was uniformed by the way. The conversation - which I couldn't actually avoid hearing - was along the lines of "When are you getting out of this sh1thole tonight?" and "I f**king hate this f**king sh1thole" and "working here is sh1te". It's not what I would call professional. I intended to write to the local manager shortly afterwards but just never had time. I still regret it now, even a year or two later.

Was that River Island by any chance??

Calina

Saskia wrote:

Was that River Island by any chance??

No it wasn't, as it happens.

ivan087

MorningStar wrote:

Well it is all about perception you are more likely to be murdered in any US state than you are in any part of Ireland. Same goes for violent robbery etc... The uS is the only modern western country to allow the death penalty (allowed on those who have the mental ability of a 10 year old child). The poverty gap is a lot worse than Ireland. I guess it really comes down to what you think is important.
I would rather rude staff than the fake "have a nice day" treatment you get in the US. I have also seen what some people who work in "service" industries live like in the US. Nothing to emulate in my opinion. No offense to any Americans but it certainly is not the land of the free or very democratic. Nobody poor will be the president there.

ffs our hospitals have people dying on trollies, its worse then some african hosptials, we are noted for our corupt politcans (italy wins!), some of our people are happy to support terrorists (IRA), there is a gangster war in north dublin, we dont feel safe walking in our cities at night, we're ignorent as hell, we're money driven, ...but at least its not america!!! ive lived in california, in the slums, and its not as bad as this. nobody poor will be the president here either.