Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

monument

The nationalism based on race, and origin, practiced by – if not SF – some SF supporters, is by its nature racist – and quite sickening.

Actually, I disagree with nationalism based on culture, religion etc… well, all nationalism except for such that is base on a political nation which values all within as equals

Saying ‘I’m Irish’, ‘I’m English’, ‘I’m British’, ‘I’m European’ etc should only be short for saying ‘I live in <such a place>’ (or in such a state) – there is no master race, culture, religion, sexuality etc – saying there is, effectively undermines the idea of a state which views its people as equals.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by cdebru
ok croatia obviously had ambitions beyond it s own borders given it invasion of bosnia

I think you’re confusing irredentism with imperialism, not to mention further qualifying and stretching your initial definition equating former or prospective empires with Fascism to the point of absurdity.

my contention is that there is a difference between an oppressive right wing regime and facism

No disagrement there.

that facism is racism its one of its main tenets

And again I’ve repeatedly highlighted how you’re incorrect in this assertion. You’ve not rebutted any of my arguments, simply repeated your assumption apparently hoping that if you say it enough times I’ll simply accept it.

so clearly the label stalinist rather than nazi might be more suitable

Only if you didn’t understand either ideology.

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
So we should damn an entire ethnic group based upon the actions not of themselves, but of their ancestors? Not unlike the old anti-Semitic argument of the Jews deserving persecution because they “crucified our Lord”.

Im not saying damn any "ethnic group". I take this to mean you agree they are in Ireland?
And they are a little more than an ethnic group to be honest. Now that you brought up the Jews. How would Jewish people react to a German controled part of Isreal with the same Swastica they had during WW2, and a picture of the current German leader on their money?

Originally posted by The Corinthian
It’s completely about race and ancestry and that they simply disagree with you. If it wasn’t about their race and ancestry, why do you bring up the actions of their ancestors continually?

I continually bring up the actions, not of their ancestors, but of the past they represent, and I dont mean represent by their religion/ancestory or the way they look, I meen In EVERY way possible, because it's always been about the history of Ireland. After all those years of murder and repression by the British to be left with a constant reminder of that ocupation right here, in every sense, it's the worst prank you could ever play on a country.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Shall we deport them then? And everyone of Viking or Norman ancestry too? Let’s not forget the Celts - they weren’t the inhabitants of this country either.

You keep on bringing up ancestry and desent as if it's the only thing going on. You bring up celts and vikings as if you could indentify them living today. You cant, because after the raping and pillaging they merged with Irish society.
There is a long history involved, a history that Irish people in the north have a hard time trying to forget because they are surrounded by everything that represents the old England. Im not saying It explains away 30 years of violence, but It's a big part of the problem.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Paint your nationalism as you wish, but when you bring your race or that of another in as a justification for anything, then there’s only one word for it.

It's not just my nationalism, It's been the nationalism of quite a lot of Irish people, for a long time.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
I take this to mean you agree they are in Ireland?

Where did I infer where they were?

And they are a little more than an ethnic group to be honest. Now that you brought up the Jews. How would Jewish people react to a German controled part of Isreal with the same Swastica they had during WW2, and a picture of the current German leader on their money?

But what I brought up was no dissimilar to a country with a significant Jewish population, as one found in Germany and Poland prior to World War II, and justifying the stripping of their rights as citizens based upon their origins. That is what you’re proposing.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that Northern Ireland is a territory occupied against the wishes of its populace. The reality is that the majority of its populace is happy with remaining as part of Britain (or at least having no interest in a united Ireland). You solution to this democratic obstacle is to revoke the rights of an entire ethnic group.

I continually bring up the actions, not of their ancestors, but of the past they represent, and I dont mean represent by their religion/ancestory or the way they look, I meen In EVERY way possible, because it's always been about the history of Ireland.

Sins of the Father? How is that different from saying the Jews representing a past where they “crucified our Lord”? There is fundamentally no difference as you’re judging the rights of others based upon their ethnic origins and their ancestry, no matter how you want to romanticize it.

After all those years of murder and repression by the British to be left with a constant reminder of that ocupation right here, in every sense, it's the worst prank you could ever play on a country.

So we should deport them all then? Or exterminate them?

You keep on bringing up ancestry and desent as if it's the only thing going on. You bring up celts and vikings as if you could indentify them living today. You cant, because after the raping and pillaging they merged with Irish society.

So because they maintain a different culture they should be deported?

It's not just my nationalism, It's been the nationalism of quite a lot of Irish people, for a long time.

Except that isn’t actually nationalism. It’s racism dressed as nationalism.

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Where did I infer where they were?

When you used the phase "ethnic group" that's useually used to refer to a people with a differnt culture living in another:rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Corinthian
But what I brought up was no dissimilar to a country with a significant Jewish population, as one found in Germany and Poland prior to World War II

No, that really would be an ethnic group. I brought up a situation that would be similar to Ireland that you just compleatly ignored.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
and justifying the stripping of their rights as citizens based upon their origins. That is what you’re proposing.

I never said strip away anyones rights baced on their origins. Strip away the flag, monarchy, and goverment/culture that Irish people will never, and have never accepted.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
You seem to be under the misapprehension that Northern Ireland is a territory occupied against the wishes of its populace. The reality is that the majority of its populace is happy with remaining as part of Britain (or at least having no interest in a united Ireland). You solution to this democratic obstacle is to revoke the rights of an entire ethnic group.

There was obviosly a quite sizable minority who found that situation offensive. Should they be ignored because they are a minority?

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Sins of the Father? How is that different from saying the Jews representing a past where they “crucified our Lord”? There is fundamentally no difference as you’re judging the rights of others based upon their ethnic origins and their ancestry, no matter how you want to romanticize it.
So we should deport them all then? Or exterminate them?
So because they maintain a different culture they should be deported?
Except that isn’t actually nationalism. It’s racism dressed as nationalism.

Youre just saying the same stuff you said before. Please reread my posts.

monument

And some how your forgetting that a German could also be a Jewish, and a Swastica is not originally a Nazi symbol…. And, there we get back to it - “but of the past they represent”, not of their current actions - but that they remind you of past oppression…

My point is that you should stop blaming people and things, and focus on changing an unequal system that does not reflect fairly on all of its people… the solution would not be a united Ireland, but an independent Northern Ireland state – a united Ireland would only reverse the feelings you have on to other people.


It's not just my nationalism, It's been the nationalism of quite a lot of Irish people, for a long time.

A brand of nationalism that (as I said) is by its nature racist, the amount of people, or amount of time, which such racism has continued should not be a reason to continue it further.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by monument

My point is that you should stop blaming people and things, and focus on changing an unequal system that does not reflect fairly on all of its people… the solution would not be a united Ireland, but an independent Northern Ireland state – a united Ireland would only reverse the feelings you have on to other people.

The British and Irish governments would love that.

Northern Ireland is a white elephant that neither side wants.

The Irish government maintains the line of wanting a United Ireland, but in reality knows that Ireland could not afford to maintain it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
When you used the phase "ethnic group" that's useually used to refer to a people with a differnt culture living in another:rolleyes:

Where does it say that?

Of course, another possibility is also that they are indeed Irish - just not the kind of Irish you want them to be.

No, that really would be an ethnic group. I brought up a situation that would be similar to Ireland that you just compleatly ignored.

It’s hardly applicable is it? But even if it were, it hardly gives the minority the right to say to the majority (and the same is true if it were the other way around TBH) to get out because based upon their origins, they’re no right to be there or choose how they wish to be governed.

I never said strip away anyones rights baced on their origins. Strip away the flag, monarchy, and goverment/culture that Irish people will never, and have never accepted.

Yes you did, to quote:

I would'nt really care what the majority of British settlers said tbo

That’s a pretty unambiguous declaration that their opinions count for nothing in your book.

There was obviosly a quite sizable minority who found that situation offensive. Should they be ignored because they are a minority?

No, but you can hardly say that their wishes are more important than the majority’s wither.

Youre just saying the same stuff you said before. Please reread my posts.

I have, repeatedly and you seem to have a blind spot actually understanding what you’re saying, let alone what others or I might be saying.

You judge or discriminate people based upon race or ethnic background; you’ve admitted that even though you try to dilute it with historical justifications.

It makes you a textbook example of a racist. Look it up in a dictionary if you don’t believe me.

earwicker

Originally posted by monument
My point is that you should stop blaming people and things, and focus on changing an unequal system that does not reflect fairly on all of its people… the solution would not be a united Ireland, but an independent Northern Ireland state – a united Ireland would only reverse the feelings you have on to other people.

An independent NI? Devolution is on the table for both sides, and both seem to want it to return. But a devolved government isn't an independent state. An independent state is something that the Unionists and the Nationalists don't want. You have two sections of the population that identify themselves as belonging to two different nationalities. I'm not sure you'll get them around the table by offering them a solution that is palatable to neither.

The GFA enshrines majority consent: the consent to stay in the Union or to join the Republic. The problem is that the Unionists consider it to be a document that is ushers in a united Ireland. Many studies done on the phenomenon of "protestant alienation" point out that many Unionists now perceive the GFA as an erosion of the pre-eminent position they enjoyed for quite a while. Any step towards equality is seen as an erosion of that position. This "not an inch" mindset is traceable to partition which itself was an exercise in gerrymandering, a corrupt practice that took a very long time to be dismantled.

monument

Originally posted by earwicker
An independent state is something that the Unionists and the Nationalists don't want.

Yes, however it is a middle ground between what the two want.

Originally posted by earwicker
You have two sections of the population that identify themselves as belonging to two different nationalities.

…one of the main reasons why an independent NI is a good solution.

bus77

It makes you a textbook example of a racist. Look it up in a dictionary if you don’t believe me.

Ive just tried to explain to you the feelings and motovations behind some of the stuff in the north.
I never said kill anyone/kick anyone out/that I hate prodestants/exterminate anyone.

Youl notice, you said all those things.

The Brigadier

You don't need to wish death on people to be a racist.

By wanting people of "British" origin treated in any way different others makes you a racist.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
You don't need to wish death on people to be a racist.

By wanting people of "British" origin treated in any way different others makes you a racist.

Wanting Irish people to live under a British flag, Government, Monarchy knowing the murder they represent to them is a cruel and unusual punishment.

The Brigadier

Well if it hurts them that much they can move to the Republic of Ireland....

What about asking the Unionists to live under an Irish Flag that will represent Murder to them?

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Well if it hurts them that much they can move to the Republic of Ireland....

lol, now who's the racist?

Originally posted by The Brigadier
What about asking the Unionists to live under an Irish Flag that will represent Murder to them?

An Independant state is the only real option at this point.

The Brigadier

How pray tell? Do you even know what the word means?

ROTFLMAO

earwicker

Originally posted by monument
Yes, however it is a middle ground between what the two want.

It may be a middle ground, but it's a utopia.

That particular carrot is impractical in the sense that it would not have got the GFA off the ground to begin with. There is little popular support for an independent state, so how would you impose it on those who don't want it? By force? Sanctions?

Consent (which is absolutely necessary) is the lure and the trap.

monument

Originally posted by bus77
Wanting Irish people to live under a British flag, Government, Monarchy knowing the murder they represent to them is a cruel and unusual punishment.

is wanting other people to 'live under' an Irish flag which they don't want just as bad?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by monument
is wanting other people to 'live under' an Irish flag which they don't want just as bad?

But he's already said that their opinion doesn't matter because of their ethnic background - which according to him is not racist.

Go figure :rolleyes:

bus77

Originally posted by monument
is wanting other people to 'live under' an Irish flag which they don't want just as bad?

It would be at this point.:(

Johnny_the_fox

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Northern Ireland is a white elephant that neither side wants.

then why ? does the british government 'pour' billions of money into ni.. If they didnt want to continue to exercise their control???

the world spins because of money and who controls what.. the british government want to hold onto part of their crumbling empire..

monument

Originally posted by earwicker
It may be a middle ground, but it's a utopia.

How is the middle ground a utopia?

Originally posted by earwicker
That particular carrot is impractical in the sense that it would not have got the GFA off the ground to begin with. There is little popular support for an independent state, so how would you impose it on those who don't want it? By force? Sanctions?

There is little popular support for an independent state, so how would you impose it on those who don't want it? By force? Sanctions?

…like imposing being apart of the UK, or an united Ireland, on people who don’t want it? - no?

Originally posted by earwicker
Consent (which is absolutely necessary) is the lure and the trap.

...wait, what's this 'consent' thing? - maybe you're onto a winner there.

The Brigadier

Because at the moment NI is part of the UK, a problematic money draining part...but a part nonetheless.

They cannot be seen to just dump part of the UK....

earwicker

Originally posted by monument
How is the middle ground a utopia?

…like imposing being apart of the UK, or an united Ireland, on people who don’t want it? - no?

You still didn't answer my question: how would you impose an independent state on a population that doesn't want it? Force? Sanctions? Something else? I'd like to know if you have an answer.

In NI non-sectarian parties do not receive much popular support. The independent state remains a utopia until there are sufficient numbers to give majority consent to it by voting for it. However, there is no provision in the GFA for an independent state: should it be renegotiated with that option in mind? If that is done, then what's to stop it being renegotiated for other matters? If independence caused much of the problem, what makes you now think it will solve it? An independence that nobody wants abandons everyone.

There is popular support for both the nationalist and unionist option. At the moment there is majority consent to be part of the UK.

I've said many times on this thread that consent is enshrined in the GFA, so I don't get your last point.

monument

Originally posted by earwicker
An independence that nobody wants abandons everyone.

It abandons two extreme views for a middle ground... An independent state that is set up to treat all of its people fairly does not abandon any one.

As for forcing something on people, I don't remember typing anything like that.

I retract my statement saying an independent NI would be a utopia – as shown by you compromise is not a real word, rather then getting a fair system each side wants to do it their way.

For each side, a compromise would be worse then the other side getting their way – because then they couldn’t cry as much about being oppressed or treated unfairly.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Because at the moment NI is part of the UK, a problematic money draining part...but a part nonetheless.

They cannot be seen to just dump part of the UK....

Didn't they already "just dump part of the UK" with the Republic of Ireland Act?

cdebru

No, but you can hardly say that their wishes are more important than the majority’s wither

see that depends on where you count your majority

majority of people in the six counties
majority of people in ireland
majority of people in britain

if you are saying that the minority should just accept the majority then the six county statelet should never have existed
as that was against the wish of the majority of the people of ireland

cdebru

I think you’re confusing irredentism with imperialism, not to mention further qualifying and stretching your initial definition equating former or prospective empires with Fascism to the point of absurdity.

i dont think iam croatias invasion of bosnia went beyond securing the area occupied by croats they did a deal with serbia basically splitting bosnia between them
so although it was protrayed as irredentism it was clearly a land grab

i have told you what i think facism is and why i dont think sinn fein fit the bill
what is your definition of facism
do you honestly believe that you can have a non racist facist
if by facism you just mean a simplistic anything you find oppressive
then nearly any goverment on the planet is facist or semi facist

The Corinthian

Originally posted by cdebru
if you are saying that the minority should just accept the majority then the six county statelet should never have existed
as that was against the wish of the majority of the people of ireland

So I take it you would support majority voting in the EU then, rather than its constituant states?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by cdebru
i dont think iam croatias invasion of bosnia went beyond securing the area occupied by croats they did a deal with serbia basically splitting bosnia between them
so although it was protrayed as irredentism it was clearly a land grab

It was a land grab of territories that both Serbia and Croatia claimed were populated by ethnic Serbians and Croatians respectively. That’s called irredentism, not imperialism - which was your (false) assertion.

i have told you what i think facism is and why i dont think sinn fein fit the bill
what is your definition of facism
do you honestly believe that you can have a non racist facist

Sure you can, I’ve given you historical evidence and you’ve given me “oh but the Nazis were racist” - not terribly convincing. You’ve not even responded to, let alone rebutted my evidence.

if by facism you just mean a simplistic anything you find oppressive
then nearly any goverment on the planet is facist or semi facist

I’m afraid I don’t share your capacity for oversimplification.