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Werewolf discussion thread

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    #1292
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    Can you show me where you started this discussion re: angleshooting?


    The game thread, which you are definitely aware of.


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    #1293
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Pter wrote: »
    Calm it down Keith.

    Boards rules and game rules aren't mutually exclusive. And you know it. The abuse rule is one example.

    But aside from anything else, I started a discussion around angleshooting for the community to discuss. Now you haven't really engaged with that discussion other than to relay a message from another. Instead you have come in here and been very very aggressive towards the forum mods.

    Let me also be VERY clear. We dont discuss disciplinary issues with anyone except the person in question. That someone may have shared their side of the story with you outside of boards isn't up to us. But it doesn't change that we won't discuss the discinplinary process with a third person. So without getting into such specifics, the forum mods have taken the action we are tasked with taking. When boards rules are broken, the parties involved will have the breakage explained to them. That's what's happened here.

    Pter wrote: »
    How is threatening to quit angleshooting?
    Pter wrote: »
    The game thread, which you are definitely aware of.


    Okay, found your mention of angleshooting, as you said its in another thread, thats serious misdirection. I was asked to relay a post, i did. I have not been agressive at all. I can't even see the contents of that post any more as it was deleted. A post by MrsFlushdraw has been deleted too.


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    #1294
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,437 ✭✭✭tritium


    My view, for what it’s worth, is there are two separate things here that, with the greatest of respect to them, some posters aren’t separating in this discussion.

    The first is the boards rules, and the role of the forum mods. As long as I’ve been on boards the rule here has always, for obvious reasons, been that this aspect is between boards and the user in question, with a system and dedicated forum to manage it. Beyond that, without meaning to sound blunt, it’s really no one else’s business.

    The second bit goes to play in this game. On that one I confess I’m a bit conflicted. I do get that it’s frustrating when something you’re certain of isn’t sticking but equally that every player is entitled to defend themselves. We’ve had plenty of players caught red handed and continue to swear innocence so it’s not exactly new. Non-anon also makes it harder since many of us may believe we have a good idea of who we can or can’t read. That said, this game isn’t about just being right, it’s also about convincing the others in the game to follow your lead.

    With that in mind, and I genuinely have a lot of respect for the two players here, dropping out of the game in that way was simply childish. Rikand I think called it angleshooting- I’m not sure on reflection that I’d go that far, but it certainly was disrespectful - to their team, the game mods and the game. I can’t be the only one who’s had moments where what I perceive as the inability of the village to listen to my obvious logic frustrates me- like most players I realize that’s on me not everyone else- work harder, get better at selling my logic, improve as a player. Or just don’t worry about it. Either way, no one is entitled to credibility in a game, that’s earned by the volume and quality of your work.

    The reaction in this game was completely inappropriate in my view. For the mods there it would have created no end of stress that they didn’t need or deserve. For the players team it sets them back. to me, it broke a stack of rules we explicitly or implicitly apply as a community.

    Just my 2c


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    #1295
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Pter wrote: »
    What question!? You came in here making accusations and saying you care not for forum moderation. You have done this before and I've warned you about it

    I honestly can't tell if you are taking the piss or not. Your example isn't accurate at all and I know you are an intelligent person so I'd have to guess the inaccuracy is intentional.

    Pawwed said it. If you think mods have overstepped the mark go to the feedback forum.

    We haven't is my interpretation.


    As i have stated numerous times, if there was a boards.ie rules breakage and a forum mods did their job, great, leave it there, as i don't care about any of that stuff. I only care about the ww game and its rules which are not under the remit of the forum mods to dictate and dole out punishment over in secret.


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    #1296
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    Okay, found your mention of angleshooting, as you said its in another thread, thats serious misdirection. I was asked to relay a post, i did. I have not been agressive at all. I can't even see the contents of that post any more as it was deleted. A post by MrsFlushdraw has been deleted too.


    Look I don't want to misdirect you or anyone. But your relayed message was a direct response to the discussion in the other thread. I made the guess you had read it. Fair enough if you haven't.


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    #1297
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Pter wrote: »
    Look I don't want to misdirect you or anyone. But your relayed message was a direct response to the discussion in the other thread. I made the guess you had read it. Fair enough if you haven't.


    maybe i posted it in the wrong thread, they never said where they wanted it posted.


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    #1298
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    As i have stated numerous times, if there was a boards.ie rules breakage and a forum mods did their job, great, leave it there, as i don't care about any of that stuff. I only care about the ww game and its rules which are not under the remit of the forum mods to dictate and dole out punishment over in secret.


    That isn't for you to police here sk. If you are worried about moderation in this forum, this forum isn't the place to raise the issue.

    This whole last page or two is terrible for the forum. If I were as a mod of a mind to overstep it would be to shut down this discussion. But I'm not so I don't.

    If you worry about sully or myself making a decision you don't like, it doesn't suspend the procedure for reporting issues with mods. It just doesn't. If you think we are interfering where we shouldn't it doesn't give you carte blanche to pick a fight in here.

    This kind of discussion belongs in feedback as you have been told. I repeat that again as I'm not sensing you are getting that. That it's discussed here looks terrible and can't be helping us bring in new players. I want an open and transparent community as much as anyone, but this isn't the way.


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    #1299
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Pter wrote: »
    That isn't for you to police here sk. If you are worried about moderation in this forum, this forum isn't the place to raise the issue.

    This whole last page or two is terrible for the forum. If I were as a mod of a mind to overstep it would be to shut down this discussion. But I'm not so I don't.

    If you worry about sully or myself making a decision you don't like, it doesn't suspend the procedure for reporting issues with mods. It just doesn't. If you think we are interfering where we shouldn't it doesn't give you carte blanche to pick a fight in here.

    This kind of discussion belongs in feedback as you have been told. I repeat that again as I'm not sensing you are getting that. That it's discussed here looks terrible and can't be helping us bring in new players. I want an open and transparent community as much as anyone, but this isn't the way.


    cat-375ca.gif








    I don't care anymore.


    Honestly, if you don't understand what I am trying to say after all this time, maybe you will never get it.


    I might try again at a live meetup to get my point across to you in a face to face, then you can see that i am not being agressive or trying to be funny.


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    #1300
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    I might try again at a live meetup to get my point across to you in a face to face, then you can see that i am not being agressive or trying to be funny.


    I'll buy the pints we can discuss it over.


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    #1301
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Digital Solitude wrote:
    Quitting without talking to mods is ****, its impossible to enforce fairly I think though. Had Jack ghosted the thread and then came back after a couple days with a "sorry life is hectic could not play" as we've seen many people do, there wouldn't be a word about it. If it were a regular thing, then yes absolutely bans should be handed out but this looks to me like punishment for not playing it cute enough


    That last bit....come on now Digi. Give sully pawwed and myself more credit than that. We don't take action or hand out bans arbitrarily.


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    #1302
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Re: the no-shows.

    I wonder is there a way we can make things easier for new players. Was thinking perhaps a seperate backroom for new players during the game to ask mechanical questions on how x works, or what Fred WW means when he's talking about y, etc.

    I know we say in the rules to PM the mods but sometimes with so many running parts a few questions can sometimes get overlooked or people might feel awkward PMing someone, whereas in a backroom it can be asked directly and probably seen quicker.

    Only something I'm kinda playing with right now tbh. Dunno if it's even workable tbh.


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    #1303
    Digital Solitude
    Registered Users Posts: 11,397 ✭✭✭✭Digital Solitude


    Pter wrote: »
    That last bit....come on now Digi. Give sully pawwed and myself more credit than that. We don't take action or hand out bans arbitrarily.

    I'm looking at this through too narrow a lens in that case. I'm not trying to discredit you guys or question your integrity, I'm sorry if that's how my post came across.

    That was one of the first things that leapt to mind though, that the closure of the account seemed to be the big no-no, where ghosting followed by an excuse has flown previously. Obviously that isn't the case so I'm going to leave this here, I realise there's a lot more than what im privvy to.

    The angleshooting is a very tough one, on one hand we know each others style so well there will always be an element of "This is how x plays y role", which is to me an acceptable level of playing the poster instead of the game, but I think thats about as personal as we should allow, the few posts that led to the quit should be unacceptable imo as its just discrediting the other player, there's no ingame way to play around or react to it, it just leads to a popularity contest on which side you'd fall on. Obviously thats not how most cases of same would go but for gut reads or even an undercover seer accusing someone thats how I'd see it panning out. As well as it being a constant strategy, doesnt matter what the game is, if I can discredit someone every game because we have a history on the forum, thats going to become a big issue as the forum gets older and more players may have fallings out. I dunno, myself and another poster had an altercation last year, we made up and got over it but if every time I accused them of something I was told I was only saying it because I didn't like them, I know I wouldn't be hanging around either.

    It works fine as an ingame strat but would be toxic to the game and community as a whole if it became widespread.

    I also think enforcing a attack the post/theory/belief and not the poster would be a good idea, it removes any and all stipulation about abuse and where the line is, and no one has to find out the hard way what can and can't be said to anyone. I know its already a rule but we're wishy-washy on it, especially when I dont mind my good friend X calling me a ****bag but if Y says it, well now I'm upset.


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    #1304
    Digital Solitude
    Registered Users Posts: 11,397 ✭✭✭✭Digital Solitude


    Necro wrote: »
    Re: the no-shows.

    I wonder is there a way we can make things easier for new players. Was thinking perhaps a seperate backroom for new players during the game to ask mechanical questions on how x works, or what Fred WW means when he's talking about y, etc.

    I know we say in the rules to PM the mods but sometimes with so many running parts a few questions can sometimes get overlooked or people might feel awkward PMing someone, whereas in a backroom it can be asked directly and probably seen quicker.

    Only something I'm kinda playing with right now tbh. Dunno if it's even workable tbh.

    Worth a shot anyways, from memory Jesus Wept and maybe one other poster were our only players to make an attempt and think they were out of their depth, most no-shows dont post at all, even D0 as I recall though


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    #1305
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    I think we should not use the 'game starts at munch on monday morning' line ever again.
    Game starts when game starts. Its usually on sunday.
    I'd be happy to give my place to a newbie, but on stipulation that if they have not posted by 9pm on the sunday, i sub back into my place and marking them down as a no show.


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    #1306
    deconduo
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 4,281 Mod ✭✭✭✭deconduo


    Necro wrote: »
    Re: the no-shows.

    I wonder is there a way we can make things easier for new players. Was thinking perhaps a seperate backroom for new players during the game to ask mechanical questions on how x works, or what Fred WW means when he's talking about y, etc.

    I know we say in the rules to PM the mods but sometimes with so many running parts a few questions can sometimes get overlooked or people might feel awkward PMing someone, whereas in a backroom it can be asked directly and probably seen quicker.

    Only something I'm kinda playing with right now tbh. Dunno if it's even workable tbh.

    Something that works well is pairing first time players with an experienced mentor (who otherwise isn't playing the game). It's a bit better than just having a comms channel with the game mods , as the mentor can directly help them with reads, meta on some players, staying active, etc.

    In an anonymous game, you can even have a pro/newbie hybrid team posting from the game account.


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    #1307
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    deconduo wrote:
    In an anonymous game, you can even have a pro/newbie hybrid team posting from the game account.


    I would really like to run a hybrid game here actually, I think a lot of people would find it less time consuming. Issue is slotting it into the schedule :pac:


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    #1308
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Necro wrote:
    I would really like to run a hybrid game here actually, I think a lot of people would find it less time consuming. Issue is slotting it into the schedule


    We could do it for Sept 19 if it hasn't been done before then.


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    #1309
    Kolido
    Registered Users Posts: 13,361 ✭✭✭✭Kolido


    Necro wrote: »
    I would really like to run a hybrid game here actually, I think a lot of people would find it less time consuming. Issue is slotting it into the schedule :pac:

    Would all accs be running hybrid? As you would need a lot of signups for a decent roster.


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    #1310
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Kolido wrote:
    Would all accs be running hybrid? As you would need a lot of signups for a decent roster.


    You'd need a minimum of 14 sign ups to run a 7 player hybrid.
    So yeah for a 15 player game you'd need 30 sign ups.
    I reckon a 12-15 player hybrid is achievable tbh.


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    #1311
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    All WW rules stuff, and things that we can discuss and figure out punishment over.

    Sorry I missed this earlier. Forum mods or cmods or admins are the only ones who may hand out punishments on boards.ie.

    I don't know who you were thinking would enforce a punishment or what form that would take but....users cannot choose to exclude other users from a thread or discussion without forum mod go ahead.

    Limiting game numbers is one thing but saying to someone 'no you can't play' or 'you can play but we are handicapping you in the game because we didn't like something you did' that's part backseat modding and part bullying. And that will not be stood for.


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    #1312
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Necro wrote: »
    You'd need a minimum of 14 sign ups to run a 7 player hybrid.
    So yeah for a 15 player game you'd need 30 sign ups.
    I reckon a 12-15 player hybrid is achievable tbh.


    getting 12-15 newbies to sign up for a single game would be something i'd love to see but i don't think it is realistic. I don't see why it should be an issue to insert a hybrid into a standard game, people should be told up front though, that newbie and exprienced are hydra-ing the game.


    maybe terms used are confusing, so, the hybrid team deconduo mentioned is a team mixing experienced and newbie player in a single anon account.



    Multiple people playing one account, or multi headed account or hydra, named after the multi headed beast.


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    #1313
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    sKeith wrote:
    getting 12-15 newbies to sign up for a single game would be something i'd love to see but i don't think it is realistic. I don't see why it should be an issue to insert a hybrid into a standard game, people should be told up front though, that newbie and exprienced are hydra-ing the game.

    Oh sorry if that was the case then no it wasn't what I meant.

    I meant the second part of your post, ala what we're playing in tomorrow :D

    Yeah I'd like to test the anon accounts first though. Have e.g. me and you log into one and both post at the same time see are there any system issues with it. Doubtful but no harm to check


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    #1314
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Necro wrote: »
    Oh sorry if that was the case then no it wasn't what I meant.

    I meant the second part of your post, ala what we're playing in tomorrow :D

    Yeah I'd like to test the anon accounts first though. Have e.g. me and you log into one and both post at the same time see are there any system issues with it. Doubtful but no harm to check


    We could test it with the wwgm account now if ya want.

    Edit: I think the crosswalks, buses, stop signs yoke kicks in way more if two people are using the same account, I think we noticed that in last game we modded.


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    #1315
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    sKeith wrote:
    Edit: I think the crosswalks, buses, stop signs yoke kicks in way more if two people are using the same account, I think we noticed that in last game we modded.

    That was my concern tbh


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    #1316
    MrsFlushdraw
    Registered Users Posts: 2,880 ✭✭✭MrsFlushdraw


    sKeith wrote: »
    We could test it with the wwgm account now if ya want.

    Edit: I think the crosswalks, buses, stop signs yoke kicks in way more if two people are using the same account, I think we noticed that in last game we modded.

    Do you mean with more than one person posting with, say the WWGM account from different IP's around the same time?


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    #1317
    Necro
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    MrsFlushdraw wrote:
    Do you mean with more than one person posting with, say the WWGM account from different IP's around the same time?


    Yeah that's it exactly.


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    #1318
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Pter wrote: »
    Sorry I missed this earlier. Forum mods or cmods or admins are the only ones who may hand out punishments on boards.ie.

    I don't know who you were thinking would enforce a punishment or what form that would take but....users cannot choose to exclude other users from a thread or discussion without forum mod go ahead.

    Limiting game numbers is one thing but saying to someone 'no you can't play' or 'you can play but we are handicapping you in the game because we didn't like something you did' that's part backseat modding and part bullying. And that will not be stood for.


    This post is all kinds of wrong.




    Have you read game 1: the beginning, the game that started in After Hours?


    Jayop: No editing of posts for any reason.


    afterHours mod: Mod-If you give one more order like that you will be banned from your own thread.


    and the insuing community discussion that got forum games: werewolf forum in the first place?


    Game mods have and should keep the control of their games.
    Game mods can modkill as punishment!

    Is that backseat moderation?


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    #1319
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    Is that backseat moderation?


    You missed a key part of what I said 'without forum mod go ahead'.

    Look I'm not making this stuff up. These are the rules. It's just never come up before to my knowledge.

    And it needs to be that way. You think there are game mods who wouldn't be tempted to exclude people from their games because of their relationship with them?

    What you are proposing is that that should be allowed. That if someone excluded you on the basis of....well anything....that forum mods shouldn't be able to stop that?

    You are welcome to ask admins or pawwed or even sully if I'm wrong in that but I know I'm not. We as a forum don't have permission to circumvent the normal moderation structure or to form our own forum justice outside of normal boards.ie rules.


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    #1320
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Keith you also need to reread our charter. It doesn't mention anywhere that game mods control discinplinary procedures to the exclusion of forum mods. It's extremely clear that discipline lies with forum mods along with admin tasks.

    You may have an idea on what a forum mod should or shouldn't do but it doesn't seem to align with the job I've been asked to do, nor what is in the charter.


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    #1321
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    Necro wrote: »
    Re: the no-shows.

    Easy. We just insist on a refundable deposit from everyone who signs up. They then get it back when they die, or at the end of the game :) :P


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