I am a fish / donk - can you help me??

bops · 23-10-2006 4:20pm #1

Before I start, this is fairly long-winded, but I would very much appreciate any feedback – Thanks!

I am successfully playing NL Hold’em for over 2 years. I enjoy tournaments / cash, internet / live…basically my job is poker. In the last month I have made a good profit from live tourneys and cash games. Anyway this post is in relation to live 1 / 2 cash games which I usually play 2/3 times a week at different venues.

I have many gears / varied styles of play. I do not enter a cash game with a predetermined plan. I choose my strategy by hand / players involved / mood!! I am pleasant and talkative at the table, people know that I can play poker and love doing so. I believe that my strongest point is that I am a good reader of people and their betting patterns.

The reason I am writing this is because I woke up this morning €1500 better off, but sad at the fact that 3 / 4 people woke up this morning hating my guts. I busted 6 people last night, only one other player left in profit and he ran while the going was good!

Three hands I can remember:
I busted KK & 22 with 73os – board 245 K A – I called large raise preflop and went fishing

My 56s was no match for 99 – I reraised him preflop and moved on the turn – 256 8 X

I raised UTG with 72os and flopped a full boat!! – can’t remember what the other poor soul had.

Everyone at the table knew how I was playing (I did not try to hide the fact) and of course when I had AA, KK, AA, and AA I was handsomely rewarded!

I am serious that when I left the game this morning I was surprised to find my car in the same state as when I left it - serious!!

Not that I feel like I need to make excuses, but just to clarify some of my calls/raises, here is an example:
UTG raises 10 to 12 - I call in late position with 4h5h
Board comes Jh 9s8s - He bets 15 - I call
Turn comes 2s – check/check
River 5d – he bets 35 – I raise to 105
He folds AJ

Now look at the above example and replace the turn card with the 4s – giving me two pairs and I just call his river bet.

…now am I a “donk” for calling raise with 45?? Am I a “fish” – or could the answer be was I confident that I could outplay my opponent in the hand?

It really annoys me when many of the posts here are referring to players as “stupid donks”, “fcuking fish” – when many of these culprits are doing exactly what I do. I firmly believe that anyone who plays ABC rock-like poker is not playing a game, or for that matter having fun? – Fair enough if they are doing it solely to make money etc etc - the questions is can they really play poker??

Am I wrong??

El Stuntman · 23-10-2006 4:24pm

phantom_lord · 23-10-2006 4:28pm

You ran good, you'll probably go broke if u keep that up.

Gholimoli · 23-10-2006 4:39pm

i'll be honest with you.
based on what you are saying here you just got lucky and if i saw some one at the table playing like you i would love it and make money from them.

good players dont fold to raises with junk becuase they are bad,they do it because they know its not profitable to do so.

ive only seen you play once in that tourney in the jackpot and i didnt know who you were but to be honest based on a few hands you played i had you down as a fishy calling station.
you made a couple of radiculas calls and you won the pots but there were just calling station calls.
now just IMO.

ollyk1 · 23-10-2006 4:48pm

Who is bops?

Hectorjelly · 23-10-2006 4:51pm

Bops I have played a good bit with you and I can give you my opinion if you want, either here of privately

bops · 23-10-2006 5:07pm

El Stuntman - TY LOL

Phantom Lord - ty - fair enough - 2 yrs and profit profit profit - I must be very lucky!

Gholimoli - that's what the 6 players I busted thought??
I find it very very funny that you got that opinion of me - seriously - I folded cards beside you for 2 hours solid (when you were moaning about being card dead - boohoo) and made a great call with bottom pair when I knew the he had sfa. I fold AJs to your All In UTG short stack attempt to survive when i was the BB - yep dirty fish and calling station thats me!!

My description of you - your just like the rest of 'em

Ollyk1 - great feedback! - a winning poker player - does it matter??

HectorJelly - Have we really?? - I'm not sure who you are? I'm not exacly sure if the agrument I was raising was "aren't I just the best player in the world??" Anyways I would love to hear of what you thought of me - please give examples of whereabouts and what type of game - thanks. - public of course the more insulting the better!!

Me thinks I have insulted the ABC gang - ah well

LuckyLloyd · 23-10-2006 5:12pm

This post has been deleted.

ianmc38 · 23-10-2006 5:12pm

bops wrote:

Before I start, this is fairly long-winded, but I would very much appreciate any feedback – Thanks!

I am successfully playing NL Hold’em for over 2 years. I enjoy tournaments / cash, internet / live…basically my job is poker. In the last month I have made a good profit from live tourneys and cash games. Anyway this post is in relation to live 1 / 2 cash games which I usually play 2/3 times a week at different venues.

I have many gears / varied styles of play. I do not enter a cash game with a predetermined plan. I choose my strategy by hand / players involved / mood!! I am pleasant and talkative at the table, people know that I can play poker and love doing so. I believe that my strongest point is that I am a good reader of people and their betting patterns.

The reason I am writing this is because I woke up this morning €1500 better off, but sad at the fact that 3 / 4 people woke up this morning hating my guts. I busted 6 people last night, only one other player left in profit and he ran while the going was good!

Three hands I can remember:
I busted KK & 22 with 73os – board 245 K A – I called large raise preflop and went fishing

My 56s was no match for 99 – I reraised him preflop and moved on the turn – 256 8 X

I raised UTG with 72os and flopped a full boat!! – can’t remember what the other poor soul had.

Everyone at the table knew how I was playing (I did not try to hide the fact) and of course when I had AA, KK, AA, and AA I was handsomely rewarded!

I am serious that when I left the game this morning I was surprised to find my car in the same state as when I left it - serious!!

Not that I feel like I need to make excuses, but just to clarify some of my calls/raises, here is an example:
UTG raises 10 to 12 - I call in late position with 4h5h
Board comes Jh 9s8s - He bets 15 - I call
Turn comes 2s – check/check
River 5d – he bets 35 – I raise to 105
He folds AJ

Now look at the above example and replace the turn card with the 4s – giving me two pairs and I just call his river bet.

…now am I a “donk” for calling raise with 45?? Am I a “fish” – or could the answer be was I confident that I could outplay my opponent in the hand?

It really annoys me when many of the posts here are referring to players as “stupid donks”, “fcuking fish” – when many of these culprits are doing exactly what I do. I firmly believe that anyone who plays ABC rock-like poker is not playing a game, or for that matter having fun? – Fair enough if they are doing it solely to make money etc etc - the questions is can they really play poker??

Am I wrong??

Your float is good. Your UTG raise with 27o is pathetic/moronic/donkish/related negative words as is playing 37o etc for a raise.

El Stuntman · 23-10-2006 5:13pm

I find it strange that a winning professional such as yourself feels the need for some kind of public acclamation on an internet forum

but...if your results are as good as you say, then well done. 2 years continuous profits are enough argument for me, who cares what your style is?

5starpool · 23-10-2006 5:15pm

bops wrote:

El Stuntman - TY LOL

Phantom Lord - ty - fair enough - 2 yrs and profit profit profit - I must be very lucky!

Gholimoli - that's what the 6 players I busted thought??
I find it very very funny that you got that opinion of me - seriously - I folded cards beside you for 2 hours solid (when you were moaning about being card dead - boohoo) and made a great call with bottom pair when I knew the he had sfa. I fold AJs to your All In UTG short stack attempt to survive when i was the BB - yep dirty fish and calling station thats me!!

My description of you - your just like the rest of 'em

Ollyk1 - great feedback! - a winning poker player - does it matter??

HectorJelly - Have we really?? - I'm not sure who you are? I'm not exacly sure if the agrument I was raising was "aren't I just the best player in the world??" Anyways I would love to hear of what you thought of me - please give examples of whereabouts and what type of game - thanks. - public of course the more insulting the better!!

Me thinks I have insulted the ABC gang - ah well

Did you think you would get a great kick out of posting hands here where you play like a donkey in some (calling big raise with 73o for one) and some good aggressive play in another (making somone lay down TPTK) and then when people post something to say that it was luck to a large degree in parts, you get all uppity?

Did you expect people to laud you and call you a genius? I have no idea who you are and couldn't give a flying fig to be honest, but if you disagree with something then your reply above isn't the way to convince people otherwise. If you don't care if people are convinced then why post in the first place?

phantom_lord · 23-10-2006 5:18pm

You say you're a good reader of people and their betting patterns.
So I'm guessing you thought you were up against aa/kk with the 73os? do you believe there's a positive expectation in calling large raises with 73o, or with raising 72o utg?

would it be true to say you turned around after those hands, after being berated by the other players and thinking/saying I won the hand didn't i.....

your title says can you help me, I think it would be safe to assume you're actually looking for what el stuntman's reply was.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be a cnut, I just don't think you should be looking for a pat on the back for getting lucky on bad plays, and ridiculing other players.

ollyk1 · 23-10-2006 5:21pm

bops wrote:

Ollyk1 - great feedback! - a winning poker player - does it matter??

Well you play live in the Fitz and SE so I'm trying to see if I've played with you to see what my opinion is on your game. You say you are a winning player so what is there to say about that? Well done and I'm happy for you.

If you want more feedback you either have to say who you are (privately or publicly) or give more detail in your hand histories. The hand histories you gave were a bit light on detail so its hard to comment I feel.

I'm not having a go at you and I could just ask Gholi who you are and to point you out to me but I thought you were looking for general feedback on Boards that is all.

People on boards know who I am and if they want to give some constructive critcism of my game they can either do it here or in a live game if they so wish. I'd welcome it but I don't actively seek it as I mainly play poker for fun tbh (code for I'm a breakeven player I guess

).

El Stuntman · 23-10-2006 5:22pm

do you have tight black hair and glasses and call all-in bets with middle pair?

Ste05 · 23-10-2006 5:27pm

I'm lost as to the help help you are looking for in your post??

Why would you care if some poker players woke up the next day not liking you?? If you wanted them to like you, just give them some of their money back, maybe they'll do the same for you when they run as well as you did last night.

Wombatman · 23-10-2006 5:28pm

bops wrote:

I busted KK & 22 with 73os – board 245 K A – I called large raise preflop and went fishing

You call a big bet pf and then most likely put more in on flop and turn before A hit.

Genius. Are you going to let us in on some of your secrets? :eek:

NickyOD · 23-10-2006 5:34pm

Hectorjelly wrote:

Bops I have played a good bit with you and I can give you my opinion if you want, either here of privately

here please

BigCityBanker · 23-10-2006 5:37pm

I dont understand everybodys problem here. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it appears bops has been eating some very good pudding. You cant argue with results.

kakak1 · 23-10-2006 5:48pm

bops wrote:

El Stuntman - TY LOL

Phantom Lord - ty - fair enough - 2 yrs and profit profit profit - I must be very lucky!

Gholimoli - that's what the 6 players I busted thought??
I find it very very funny that you got that opinion of me - seriously - I folded cards beside you for 2 hours solid (when you were moaning about being card dead - boohoo) and made a great call with bottom pair when I knew the he had sfa. I fold AJs to your All In UTG short stack attempt to survive when i was the BB - yep dirty fish and calling station thats me!!

My description of you - your just like the rest of 'em

Ollyk1 - great feedback! - a winning poker player - does it matter??

HectorJelly - Have we really?? - I'm not sure who you are? I'm not exacly sure if the agrument I was raising was "aren't I just the best player in the world??" Anyways I would love to hear of what you thought of me - please give examples of whereabouts and what type of game - thanks. - public of course the more insulting the better!!

Me thinks I have insulted the ABC gang - ah well

Well I don't think you are a fish or a donk, I don't have an opinion on that. But I suspect you might be a right cnut.

In my opinion you just set out to stir it :mad: :mad:

Sinfonia · 23-10-2006 5:56pm

BigCityBanker wrote:

I dont understand everybodys problem here. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it appears bops has been eating some very good pudding. You cant argue with results.

You also can't argue with mathematical law

Maybe bops stood there with his mouth open while pudding was thrown at him, and a lot went in, and for the next two years he'll get no pudding?

but anyway...

bops, I suppose if you can force your opponents out of every pot, then maths doesnt matter, 'cos you'll always win...

In other words, although you may have a certain way of playing, that makes you profit, fair enough.
However, there are safer methods of achieving long-term profit, the most effective that has been discovered is playing by-the-book, mathematically sound decisions, based on probability/value.

also please don't give me some snide reply, because i'm just airing my opinions, just like Gholi for example.

nicnicnic · 23-10-2006 6:00pm

fish or donkey, naw but from experience of playing with you just weak, tight passive and i agree with what kakak1 says aswell;).

the standard of play in wexford is so bad that even bobs can be a winner

Lafortezza · 23-10-2006 6:24pm

The responses you're getting here are actually way more interesting than your original post.
If I could push all-in blind every hand and win significant (to me) money I wouldn't give a bollix what people thought of me or my play.

At the end of the day you're in profit, and as long as you stay in profit and are happy with the amount of profit you're earning, then carry on.
If the style of play you descibed in the original post starts losing you $$, that's the time to get thinking about it.

Hectorjelly · 23-10-2006 6:26pm

Ive played with you under a lot of different names, hectorjelly, the earth, fastguy1 and others (im not sure which I would of been) Here are my unedited notes built up over that time

very aggro/loose shorthanded, called a reraise with 95s
raise with T4o, check calls his stack off on ten high board and loses
cant fold top pair
I raised turn to 50 and all in on river as bvluff, he folded I showed
plays a lot of hands 24nl
calls with terrible draws
never seems to fold draws
bluffed river half pot bet with missed draw

You always seemed a pretty bad player with no idea of the fundamentals. I would really doubt that you are a long term winner (maybe a small one) and I dont believe you have lived solely off poker over the last two years, either you have a large amount of money in your family or some other income.

I always assumed you were just someone with cash to burn who liked playing poker (nothing wrong with that). Your made such huge mistakes in hands (like calling overbets on the turn with straight draws and so on) that I would never of thought you took it very seriously. When playing with you you often called in spots where it was not only obvious you were beaten, but you called so fast its unlikely you did any thinking at all.

You should get pokertracker and track your stats over the next 40k hands, I think it would be a real eye opener for you. Maybe im wrong and you can come back here in two months and make me eat my words, but I doubt it.

I have you down as playing about 37% of hands, and raising 5% of the time. This is loose passive and is pretty much an almost unwinnable style in 100bb games. Then in some sessions you raised nearly every hand, again indication that you let your emotions guide your game. 37% of hands means playing hands as bad as Q8o utg and so on. You vastly overrate suited cards btw.

I havent played with you since you changed your name.

Gholimoli · 23-10-2006 6:39pm

what i like to know is what was the purpose of your post?
i mean you come here asking for ppls openion and then you give out to them for giving it to you!!!
if you were looking for a boast then i have seen nothing in the hand history or the time i played with you worthy of it but if you are actually looking to improve your game then why are you reacting this way?

luckyvegas7 · 23-10-2006 6:48pm

bops you big donkey

...

bops · 23-10-2006 7:16pm

Firstly I would like to thank you all for the responses so far, I would very much like to spend time replying in detail, but there are way too many of you!!
anyways, I'll try and keep it short:

Firstly, before I reply 1 by 1, maybe I worded it all wrong but here is the general idea of what I was trying to say:

I played a cash game for 7 hours, in general solid enough (!!) I mixed it up afew times either through boredom / I had a good read on my opponent.

I referred to 3 riduculous hands from I suppose 300? to demonstrate my argument - which was the way people on boards call every second person a fish or a donk.

Then I gave an example of my argument... the 54 eg
I suppose I drove the boot in then about ABC stuff - just to help generate a response : )

Also im not a professional poker player - i have a seperate income - i do play in excess of 40 hrs per week and i do make a profit - wouldn't want to rely on it for a living tho!!

anyways back to your kind replies - much appreciated btw:

LuckyLloyd: My point EXACTLY Lloyd - it's like black/white - rocks vs fish/donks - It just always appears to be one sided...
Very well written and I couldn't agree with you more thanks

ianmc38: Your UTG raise with 27o is pathetic/moronic/donkish/related negative words as is playing 37o etc for a raise. Exactly the response i was expecting - thanks!

El Stuntman: Winning non-professional : ) my fault explained above soz!
2 years continuous profits are enough argument for me, who cares what your style is? now I love your attitude - alas everybody else seems to have something to say about everyone elses style of play - that was my main point - thanks

5starpool - yep soz i suppose i got a bit on the defensive there alright - i just was takin aback by the levels of direct insult tbh

phantom lord: funny u should mention that the KK vs 73 was a good friend of mine - I think that was my main reson for writing this - his reaction.
Im not lookin for a pat on the back - and that's for sure - thanks

Ollyk1: I'd dont play many cash games in dublin - im a culchie - if your ollie boyce - we have shared tables in tourneys - this post is very cash game based. I was v surprised at Gholi's opinion of me - really - thats the only time i've sat with him i think - i wasn't looking for any feedback on my play etc - i was just trying to start a debate/discussion that i find very interesting. TBH i honestly would have no interest of what people think of my general play - If you want to know ask these boardsters: they know me well enough:
ppp special
nicnicnic
mdwexford

El Stuntman - LOL no and no (well sometimes - depends on a few factors!)

Ste05 - No help required - just a discussion (at my expense : ) )
I love the game and I love the banter - I don't like making enemies at the poker table - guys who next week i'll be sitting with again - OK enemies are GOOD at the table - but I mean people who really take personal offence over the way you play a hand ???? I suppose thats sorta my point

WombatMan - I got VALUE after the flop!! not relivant anyways...not the point ty all the same

Nicky O'D: If i knew hectors real name it' would help - anyways the ITS NOT THE POINT!!! lol altho i would be interested in the insults he would throw at me! - I'll bet i've never played him at a cash table...

BigCityBanker: TYVM - yep they all did get fairly irate - its good for the discussion - i have learned much from it so far.

kakak1 - exacly - my God someone has figured it out wd m8 - i do recall slagging you about your name before - you were on the carlow or waterford team for the pokerevents yoke a while ago. anyways exacly i am a cnut and was trying to stir it - very successfuy me thinks!!

Sum Guy - soz to Gholi - but he really rubbed me up the wrong way - with the fishy callinstation remark - anyways I understanded your point about the maths etc and for 95% of my game thats how i play - do you understand about how i can play the other 5% of my game tho - gut feelings - playing like a wanker etc etc?? If its all math its not a game and therefore no fun and therefore why would i do it? - u see where im comming from??

nicnic - lol hiya - long time! - it was based on a game in waterford!! I thought u'd be along? Weak tight passive sounds about right m8
cheers (!!) and cya soon

lafortezza - yep that was the general idea - just tried to set it off - i tought it would make for a good friendly general discussion!!

HectorJelly - Interesting stats etc and v good description too - i play v successful STTs 200$ generally - if you want a worthwhile opinion of my play ask gregior or wardonkee theyre the guys i play with the most - i def. dont play cash 2/4 for profit - not belittling people who do but it aint my game i might pop in for a few mins and tilt away or fk around a couple of hunderd $ - very loose and v agg. - this post was not intended to be anything to do with my play in general if that makes any sense...

thats another point - the idea of using pottracker or whatever and all those other yokes to tell u what your opponents are up to, what to bet, when to bet - make me ask the question again - are you really playing poker?- ffs just go and write a program to do it for you - honestly m8 no offence intended - maybe im too old school - but i hate the idea of all that ****e - but hey i know i couldn't be more wrong - dont get me wrong i like making money - but i play poker for enjoyment moreso - if i wanted to make a solid living i think there are much better ways to do so - just remember poker is all about fun fun fun!!!!!!!!!!!

Gholi - hiya m8 and soz for the outburst ; )
wasn't boasting...
wasn't lookin for help...
just lookin for reactions!
me: fishy callinstation!!?? - i really mean no offence here but if u really got that impression from me - fk! - shudda gome to specsavers ; )
BTW: when i said to you in other post about the rock with the 45 - there was a "hint" of sarcasim there m8 - he was pure awful!! (nearly as bad a you - heehee)

Luckyvegas: LOL cheers buddy wp gg

...if anybody had the patience to read this far - thanks again

aodea · 23-10-2006 7:26pm

best thread in ages relly enjoyed it thanks everybody this sure beats study..........

TacT · 23-10-2006 7:30pm

bops wrote:

I R TEH POKAR MASTAH!

That's grrreat! You'll get over it. nh gg wp gl

NickyOD · 23-10-2006 7:35pm

bops wrote:

people on boards call every second person a fish or a donk.

Actually its much much higher than that.

RoundTower · 23-10-2006 7:41pm

Everyone who posts on these boards is a winning poker player, so I'm hardly surprised that your unorthodox style at the poker table has reaped good rewards. Far be it from me to give you advice on your play which might rob you of your individuality and turn you into another mindless soulless rock.

Gholimoli · 23-10-2006 7:44pm

what is accepted as proper poker strategy is based on what strategy has the most expectation in the long run and that is generally measured by some math (EV) and not by how much fun you can have playing it.
dont get me wrong ,there is not anything wrong with playing poker with fun at all and i think you can have alot of fun playing poker but fun poker is not proper poker.
now all the talk about gut feeling ,blah,blah who needs PT or this and that or who needs to understand poker theory yada yada yada is none sense when you are talking about playing PROPER poker.
now you say you play for fun ,well fair play to you and its a good thing but then if you are playing for fun then have your fun and why should you care about how the table feels about you which i think prompted this post.
also when you argue about how you played 54 or 73 or KK then i assume you are talking about the correct way of playing and as i said its alot different from the fun way of playing it.i meant no offence from my first post i thought you were actually asking for openions and that was mine as i had seen enough from you to notice what level your game is at.

I am a fish / donk - can you help me??

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