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Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

24567…20

Comments

  • #52
    crisco10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭crisco10


    jr86 wrote: »
    If they do get relegated - and even if its not automatic - surely morale is only going one way, what would this mean for the likes of Vunipola (x2), Itoje, George, Daly and Farrell? Can other premiership clubs even afford them? Would they go on loan even, a la Mark Wilson (of course provided Sarries make a lot of cuts elsewhere)?

    Given a lot of them are young, and will be in next world cup cycle, would a sabbatical ala Carter, McCaw at this stage actually be the worst thing for them? Assuming they can get sorted for 20/21 season obviously.


  • #53
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Problem is if they get relegated they surely can’t survive all the debt they have. Wray’s pockets might be deep, but not that deep. It could possibly mean the end of the club, which would be very sad for all the staff and supporters.


  • #54
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    crisco10 wrote: »
    Given a lot of them are young, and will be in next world cup cycle, would a sabbatical ala Carter, McCaw at this stage actually be the worst thing for them? Assuming they can get sorted for 20/21 season obviously.

    Yeah that's the thing, all are in their 20s now, george is 30 this year, but still have a lot to offer England - and should be well in contention for the next world cup as you say

    Ok, maybe George and Daly are interchangeable and affordable but the Vunipolas, Itoje and Farrell are world class players who will command a huge salary and the England national side simply cannot lose them


  • #55
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    stephen_n wrote: »
    That signing was announced this time last year. Before any of this had started.

    It wasn't just this year though that they were over. So they were willing to go over again.

    Feck them.


  • #56
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Problem is if they get relegated they surely can’t survive all the debt they have. Wray’s pockets might be deep, but not that deep. It could possibly mean the end of the club, which would be very sad for all the staff and supporters.
    Wray has reportedly written off a £45 million debt from the club. That's pretty deep as pockets go!

    Another option for them is to impose an immediate pay cut on player's salaries, but with an undertaking to make it up in the following season when they can let players go as contracts come to an end. It would mean that they'd be going into next season with some of their cap eaten up and therefore in a worse position than any other club in the premiership. Which would seem fair.


  • #57
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Problem is if they get relegated they surely can’t survive all the debt they have. Wray’s pockets might be deep, but not that deep. It could possibly mean the end of the club, which would be very sad for all the staff and supporters.

    Several sponsors will back out for sure you'd think.

    I know Sky Sports show championship games but there can't be a whole lot of tv money in that for them.

    At this stage they probably are nearly better off shelving the league (I cannot see a way out of relegation) and throwing their whole lot at Europe.

    European rugby next season and it might just save them - for now


  • #58
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    The likes of Marmion and Earls - who I believed were linked with them - must be breathing huge sighs of relief right now.

    the grass ain't always greener!


  • #59
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    jr86 wrote: »
    Several sponsors will back out for sure you'd think.

    I know Sky Sports show championship games but there can't be a whole lot of tv money in that for them.

    At this stage they probably are nearly better off shelving the league (I cannot see a way out of relegation) and throwing their whole lot at Europe.

    European rugby next season and it might just save them - for now
    The league is their bread and butter. Relegation would finish them as a club. They need to jettison players and cut salaries any way they can to stay up. Otherwise it's likely they could be completely wiped out. Europe is meaningless in terms of income.


  • #60
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    jr86 wrote: »
    Several sponsors will back out for sure you'd think.

    I know Sky Sports show championship games but there can't be a whole lot of tv money in that for them.

    At this stage they probably are nearly better off shelving the league (I cannot see a way out of relegation) and throwing their whole lot at Europe.

    European rugby next season and it might just save them - for now


    Would they be allowed to play in Europe from the Championship? I also doubt that even playing in Europe would make up for the loss of Prem money, so they'd still be asset stripped of players in the summer.


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  • #61
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Would they be allowed to play in Europe from the Championship? I also doubt that even playing in Europe would make up for the loss of Prem money, so they'd still be asset stripped of players in the summer.

    The winners get a spot irrespective of league situation.


  • #62
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Would they be allowed to play in Europe from the Championship? I also doubt that even playing in Europe would make up for the loss of Prem money, so they'd still be asset stripped of players in the summer.

    No, the Championship play fixtures on ERCC weekends.

    I don't think Saracens would care about Europe anyway if they were allowed to play.


  • #63
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Apparently an emergency meeting with the players was due at 8:30. I imagine we'll hear the outcome very shortly.


  • #64
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Would they be allowed to play in Europe from the Championship? I also doubt that even playing in Europe would make up for the loss of Prem money, so they'd still be asset stripped of players in the summer.

    It definitely wouldn't and of course they'd be severely weakened personnel wise but it would keep them in existence for a bit longer anyway


  • #65
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    J*nes stating the truth will come out. :pac:

    I wonder if he's being paid by word or by tweet?


  • #66
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,721 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    J*nes stating the truth will come out. :pac:

    I wonder if he's being paid by word or by tweet?

    Saying that people will have to wait until Sunday when he publishes "the real story".

    The man's utterly deluded.


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  • #67
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Wray has reportedly written off a £45 million debt from the club. That's pretty deep as pockets go!

    Another option for them is to impose an immediate pay cut on player's salaries, but with an undertaking to make it up in the following season when they can let players go as contracts come to an end. It would mean that they'd be going into next season with some of their cap eaten up and therefore in a worse position than any other club in the premiership. Which would seem fair.

    Sure making you the short fall and paying redundancies would still put them above the cap next year unless they let all the big guns go.


  • #68
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    No, the Championship play fixtures on ERCC weekends.

    I'm sure it'd be facilitated though

    If you earn your place, you deserve your place in fairness

    I know its football, but when cardiff and Millwall made FA Cup finals they were playing for European football the year after despite being in championship at the time


  • #69
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    jr86 wrote: »
    I'm sure it'd be facilitated though

    If you earn your place, you deserve your place in fairness

    I know its football, but when cardiff and Millwall made FA Cup finals they were playing for European football the year after despite being in championship at the time


    Different sport, different rules. The ERCC is a competition for clubs from the Pro14, Top14 and Premiership. They'd be denying one Premiership club a place in the Champions Cup and another (this years Championship winners) a place in the Challenge Cup.


  • #70
    Amalia Dry Gauche
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Amalia Dry Gauche


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    No, the Championship play fixtures on ERCC weekends.

    I don't think Saracens would care about Europe anyway if they were allowed to play.

    It would be easy to focus on Europe, they'd absolutely walk the Championship. Probably win every match, good chance of a BP in every match.


  • #71
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Different sport, different rules. The ERCC is a competition for clubs from the Pro14, Top14 and Premiership. They'd be denying one Premiership club a place in the Champions Cup and another (this years Championship winners) a place in the Challenge Cup.

    Yeah on league position

    But there's a completely separate place for last year's winners. I'd doubt there's any clauses about the division they operate in, given the chances of the winner being relegated was so ludicrous to even consider.

    They wouldn't be denying any premiership team a place in the champions cup though. The top 6 or 7 or whatever it is qualify anyway, the spot for last year's winners is completely separate to that. Chances are the previous winners will always qualify by merit in their league anyway so its usually not an issue


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  • #72
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »
    It would be easy to focus on Europe, they'd absolutely walk the Championship. Probably win every match, good chance of a BP in every match.

    Only if they hold on to the players, which would be very unlikely given the cut in wages that would be required.


  • #73
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Only if they hold on to the players, which would be very unlikely given the cut in wages that would be required.

    A lot of their fringe players have been playing well this season. They've used 42 players or so in Europe and are going to qualify for the knockouts. The academy guys are no slouches

    The championship is a woeful standard, Newcastle lost their best players but will likely go 100% this year


  • #74
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Theyre expected to obey the cap every season though, not just when caught.

    So its their own fault they went in to this season planning to cheat.

    Otherwise youre basically giving them this season for free to do what they want.

    The verdict should have anticipated the current season also, with the aim to be correct for following season (if surviving both the fine and points reduction) . With redundancies and payouts for cutting contracts going to be marked against them it should be expected they'll blow the cap again.


  • #75
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Sure they can join the Pro14. Raises the standard of the league significantly, and they can spend as much money as they want without worrying about caps.


  • #76
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,837 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    stephen_n wrote: »
    Only if they hold on to the players, which would be very unlikely given the cut in wages that would be required.

    no salary cap in the championship ;)


  • #77
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    no salary cap in the championship ;)

    There is if you want to get promoted.


  • #78
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,837 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    awec wrote: »
    There is if you want to get promoted.

    point being though that the could walk the championship, play european HC rugby, and worry about the salary cap at the end of the season.

    it would be a hard reset, but not as hard as getting rid of players right now, and still risk relegation.


  • #79
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    The verdict should have anticipated the current season also, with the aim to be correct for following season (if surviving both the fine and points reduction) . With redundancies and payouts for cutting contracts going to be marked against them it should be expected they'll blow the cap again.
    Well they were told they had to be compliant this season or face further sanctions. Are you suggesting that they should have got a free run this season and break the cap again?


  • #80
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,837 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Well they were told they had to be compliant this season or face further sanctions. Are you suggesting that they should have got a free run this season and break the cap again?

    every team knows they have to be compliant going into a season.

    it seems sarries were told that there was period benchmarks where they had to show they were operating within the cap, and failed to do this.


  • #81
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Sure they can join the Pro14. Raises the standard of the league significantly, and they can spend as much money as they want without worrying about caps.

    I’m sure the RFU would jump at the chance to approve that!


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  • #82
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,910 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Don't Sarries have the best academy in England?

    Cut loose a few big names - Daly, Williams, Kruis

    Send the ones you really want to keep (Farrell, Itoje, George, Vunipola x 2) on loan to Connacht for the year.

    Get promotion with ease

    Then in 18 months time, you have a slimmed down squad, but still retain your key England players


  • #83
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,721 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    There's no salary cap in the championship, if they get relegated they're under no obligation to cut players for next season, it'd only have to be the following season when they get promoted that they'd have to clean up the books.


  • #84
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    There's no salary cap in the championship, if they get relegated they're under no obligation to cut players for next season, it'd only have to be the following season when they get promoted that they'd have to clean up the books.

    Having no salary cap is of little relevance if you have no money in the first place.

    Saracens get relegated. Sponsors and players scarper. Where does the money come from?


  • #85
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,721 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Having no salary cap is of little relevance if you have no money in the first place.

    Saracens get relegated. Sponsors and players scarper. Where does the money come from?

    Wray just wrote off a massive chunk of their debt, I'd say they'd have no issues building up more debt for a season to get promoted, ala Bristol or even London Irish. They'll still be bankrolled by Wray's family.

    I'm not saying that the squad wouldn't suffer and players leave etc, but they wouldn't be under obligation to send players out on loan for financial reasons, only contractually.


  • #86
    KBurke85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭KBurke85


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Wray just wrote off a massive chunk of their debt, I'd say they'd have no issues building up more debt for a season to get promoted, ala Bristol or even London Irish. They'll still be bankrolled by Wray's family.

    I'm not saying that the squad wouldn't suffer and players leave etc, but they wouldn't be under obligation to send players out on loan for financial reasons, only contractually.

    Another issue is players have relegation clauses in their contracts so they probably wont be willing to hang around playing Championship rugby especially in a Lions year


  • #87
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,757 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    They appear to be adequately funded. A written off loan is the same as a gift. Wray has seemingly cut his ties but his shares are now in a family trust, and it wouldn't surprise me if he still had control. If they continued to break the salary cap this season (as is claimed) their cashflow was adequate too.

    They appear to have made little or no effort to comply. No offloading players or reducing payments. That is essentially 2 fingers to the league. Arrogance in spades.

    The entire organisation is poison at this point. Relegate them now or wind them up and start again cleanly.


  • #88
    un5byh7sqpd2x0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭un5byh7sqpd2x0


    Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »
    It would be easy to focus on Europe, they'd absolutely walk the Championship. Probably win every match, good chance of a BP in every match.

    With no players??


  • #89
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    So winning Europe would not allow Saracens compete in the HEC again next season:

    https://twitter.com/willgkelleher/status/1218137587963060225?s=19


  • #90
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Delicious.


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  • #91
    AdamD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,726 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Wonder how clean the other clubs are...they'd really want to be if they push this through


  • #92
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    molloyjh wrote: »
    So winning Europe would not allow Saracens compete in the HEC again next season:

    https://twitter.com/willgkelleher/status/1218137587963060225?s=19

    Is it the Champions Cup powers that be themselves or the RFU who choose England's representatives?

    Obviously England are given a certain allocation (which is naturally the top 6 in the league as it makes sense) but is this strictly enforced? Could the RFU - for example - give a place for the cup winners, if they felt like it?

    this ruling would seem to imply its the Champions Cup themselves that govern it, meaning the championship is about as relevant as the Uruguay amateur league, and the fact its an English league makes no difference?


  • #93
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    So there's no salary cap imposed by the European Cup, but their rules require you to be in a feeder league.

    In Sarries' case, they were only in that feeder league because they cheated....

    Leinster lawyers surely doing a deep dive on this...


  • #94
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    So there's no salary cap imposed by the European Cup, but their rules require you to be in a feeder league.

    In Sarries' case, they were only in that feeder league because they cheated....

    Leinster lawyers surely doing a deep dive on this...

    I would really hope not. Would look pretty petty.


  • #95
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.


  • #96
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    awec wrote: »
    I would really hope not. Would look pretty petty.

    Our fifth crown is inevitable.

    Obtaining through the courts would simply add some variety.


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  • #97
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 54,091 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.


  • #98
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

    Does the Pro14 require them to be?


  • #99
    un5byh7sqpd2x0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭un5byh7sqpd2x0


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    The Irish provinces are not exactly transparent with their spending.

    There's no salary cap in the Pro 14


  • #100
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Anderson Future Custard wrote: »
    There's no salary cap in the Pro 14

    I'm aware of that but it would be rich of us to go this road...


  • #101
    Neil3030
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    awec wrote: »
    I think they need to re-think this whole salary cap thing, maybe move closer to the football model of Financial Fair Play where it's set at a european level rather than arbitrarily among each league.

    Current football FFP rules omit infrastructure, training facilities and youth development from qualified outgoings. Just hand Leinster the next ten European Cups now. We'll take them in midnight silver, please.


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