When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

end of the road · 23-02-2021 8:03pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Kind of. The strikes surely discouraged businesses to move their freight on rail, and Iarnrod Eireann being deliberately difficult and extraordinarily expensive to do business with certainly adds to the revulsion. But by far the biggest killer of rail freight was the industries which used rail simply ceasing to exist....

Asahi - gone.
Quigley Magnesite - gone
Bell Lines - gone
Irish Sugar - gone
IFI fertilizer - gone
Shales - gone
Livestock - long gone.
Timber - massively curtailed
Foynes - there but only just as a shadow of its former self. Rail disconnected long ago.
Irish Cement - still there but only just and the cement traffic just doesn't suit the nature of where the cement needed to go, and an awful lot of cement is imported now anyway.
Tara Mines - still there but on borrowed time until the mine is exhausted. Dead man walking.
Gypsum - still here but gone from rail.

Gypsum i think doesn't even produce as much as it did at the end of it's use of rail, which if i remember rightly, was around 1 train a week at the end.

roadmaster · 23-02-2021 9:04pm

bk wrote: »

I'd say they are realistic about the opportunities available and demand that exists for rail.

They focus on projects like Dart+ that will bring hundreds of thousands of new passengers unto rail and out of cars, while being much less interested in sleepy rural rail lines that end up carrying a handful of passengers at subsidy rates of up to €500 per passenger carried!!

Same with rail freight, for the most part, demand from business just isn't there for it in Ireland due to various factors.

Some people seem to get all weirdly emotional about the Victorian rail network and how extensive it was, all while ignoring the fact that our modern rail network, while smaller, is much safer and carries vastly more people then ever.

I have a solution: Rail for Dubs & Roads for the rest of us

monument · 23-02-2021 11:23pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The problem in Ireland is we allow so much hodge-podge planning without any coherent consideration for either high-density housing or high-density working, even in Dublin this doesn't happen to anything like the extent of other countries.
Unfortunately, by the time we'd revert these mistakes, many of us will be 6 feet under.

The problem is the bit in bold does not really follow with cities which are in a comparable population range.

The density in Dublin City and Suburbs is overall comparable to cities with rail-based public transport networks and there's loads of scope for building extra density around stations, as happened in many cities with or after services were provided. Dublin has overall higher density than cities with similar populations.

And there's no great density in the towns around most S-tog stations in commuter towns and where there is a bit of density it was built recently or way after the train service was built.

ohographite · 23-02-2021 11:39pm

bk wrote: »

They focus on projects like Dart+ that will bring hundreds of thousands of new passengers unto rail and out of cars, while being much less interested in sleepy rural rail lines that end up carrying a handful of passengers at subsidy rates of up to €500 per passenger carried!!

I am certain that the two sleepiest railways in the country, Limerick Junction-Waterford and Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy, would both be used for hundreds more journeys each day, if their timetables were altered so that trains from these lines arrived into Limerick and Waterford cities in time for the start of the working day, and departed them after the end of it, which would allow people working in Limerick or Waterford to use these lines to travel to work. It is at least worth trying, and I am glad that there is a campaign group, The North Tiperary Community Rail Partnership, trying to get Irish Rail to do that with the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line. I would definitely say that it is a realistic goal to retain what is left of Ireland's rail network, and make it work.

Spook_ie · 23-02-2021 11:49pm

monument wrote: »

Stop. Please. The Dart is all used.

I think you are misunderstanding the poster, if I read it correctly, they mean if a line has a 3 mile catchment area each side of it then half the catchment area is in the Irish sea, whereas if it were feasible to close it down and reconstruct it 3 miles inland you would double the actual catchment area.

Perhaps ( considering the infeasibility of moving the rail/dart ) we should instead fill in 3 miles of the Irish Sea and build some infrastructure there

monument · 24-02-2021 12:06am

bk wrote: »

Re-reading your post, I'm not sure this is really true.

It was certainly true in the past before the original DART project and Luas.

However refreshingly, I don't remember anyone saying anything like that about Luas Crosscity (as a project, not the original linked lines), Luas extensions, Luas 55m upgrades, Dart 8 carriages, 10 minute DARTS or the upcoming Dart+ and Metrolink projects.

In particular with Dart+ and Metrolink I've seen very little negative press for such major and expensive projects. Sure there is the odd nimby objections about station, placement, etc. But given how massive these projects are, it is surprising how little negative press there is about them and it feels like we might have turned a corner on how the public and press sees major public transport projects.

I don't remember anyone calling these white elephants.

I do think the WRC is a bit of a white elephant, but a minor one in the greater scheme of things. And I do think that the Galway Luas scheme looks to be a white elephant too, come on a Luas that carries half the passengers of a double decker Dublin Bus!!

I mean if a project really is a white elephant, it should be called out as such, specially if the money that would go to it, could be better used on nearby projects with better cost benefit ratios, like double tracking Galway to Athenry and Galway Busconnects.

But overall, I do feel we have turned a corner with public acceptance of major public transport projects. There seems to be a real appetite in the public for high quality public transport.

Michael McDowell and others are still raving about Metrolink and Busconnects. People don't generally object to railway stock upgrades.

The Busconnects opposition is massive and the NTA has made a huge mistake dealing with on-road traffic restrictions and CPOs at the same time. There's already been interface in the project (ie Templeogue Village removed from the project).

Cross-city was not objected to (too much, bar the likes of Cllr Flynn) because it was the end of an argument which lasted a decade after the first lines were opened.

I agree the idea of mini-trams is daft. Any Luas outside Dublin should be built decently with high-capacity and frequency in mind and densification included with the project or not at all.

monument · 24-02-2021 12:17am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The DART was a crazy idea. It is stupid because half of it's catchment area is out in the Irish Sea. If it was an inland line it would have double the utility. But of course the whole thing was starting from a bad place, and existing 1800s line built along the coast for no apparent reason.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Kind of. The strikes surely discouraged businesses to move their freight on rail, and Iarnrod Eireann being deliberately difficult and extraordinarily expensive to do business with certainly adds to the revulsion. But by far the biggest killer of rail freight was the industries which used rail simply ceasing to exist....

Asahi - gone.
Quigley Magnesite - gone
Bell Lines - gone
Irish Sugar - gone
IFI fertilizer - gone
Shales - gone
Livestock - long gone.
Timber - massively curtailed
Foynes - there but only just as a shadow of its former self. Rail disconnected long ago.
Irish Cement - still there but only just and the cement traffic just doesn't suit the nature of where the cement needed to go, and an awful lot of cement is imported now anyway.
Tara Mines - still there but on borrowed time until the mine is exhausted. Dead man walking.
Gypsum - still here but gone from rail.

Right, so, the guy who told that an oversubscribed passenger service in a city was "crazy idea" has views about rail freight.

beauf · 24-02-2021 1:12am

monument wrote: »

It seems the penny isn’t dropping with a lot of people that continuing to build an unsustainable transport system isn’t compatible with acting on climate change — car use alone amounts to ~13% of Ireland’s carbon emissions, then there’s build and maintenance, poor land use etc.

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

EDITED: I should stress that I think rail is only a part of the sustainable transport mix -- my point about is how jarring it is that people have no problem with laods of dual carriageways to towns start calling rail in city a white elephant.

Hard to get people invested in a rail solution they won't see any benefit from for decades. Cars and roads might be the worst solution. But it's the one people get the benefit from quickest.

I know people who can do their journey faster on a train or even walking. They will still drive. There is no persuading them.

I've had a annual rail ticket for decades and commuted cycling a reasonable amount. Even I had given up and had gone back to the car pre Covid. Post Covid it won't matter my commuting is unlikely ever to daily ever again.

All I see is bad planning everywhere. We aren't learning from past mistakes. There is no coordinated vision. It's all knee jerk reactions to some flash issue.

99nsr125 · 24-02-2021 1:21am

monument wrote: »

It seems the penny isn’t dropping with a lot of people that continuing to build an unsustainable transport system isn’t compatible with acting on climate change — car use alone amounts to ~13% of Ireland’s carbon emissions, then there’s build and maintenance, poor land use etc.

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

EDITED: I should stress that I think rail is only a part of the sustainable transport mix -- my point about is how jarring it is that people have no problem with laods of dual carriageways to towns start calling rail in city a white elephant.

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

Yurt2 · 24-02-2021 1:31am

The horse has long bolted with our dispersed population pattern (exacerbated over the years and getting no better) for a decent rail network. I think I read somewhere we're the most car dependant rich nation in the world second only to Qatar - yes, even more so than the USA.

If one visits countries like Japan (different plate of sushi I concede), public transport is an absolute dream, and there's no need to own a car whatsoever, with the exception of the northern island of Hokkaido (and even that blows Ireland out of the water for public transport).

I'd love to be optimistic, but I think we'll never even get close to countries like Sweden, never mind best-in-class countries for public transport like Germany / South Korea / Japan.

Like a lot of things, we pretend this dysfunction is normal.

24-02-2021 1:40am

99nsr125 wrote: »

Nuclear is the answer

There is an energy infrastructure thread on the infrastructure forum better suited to that topic so might be best to move there.

The one thing I will say is this, if you want to talk about nuclear you need to bring 2 things to the conversation

- How to manage the waste over a multi-millennia time period and
- How to pay for that management

GT89 · 24-02-2021 1:48am

99nsr125 wrote: »

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

100% I would be fully supportive of nuclear

end of the road · 24-02-2021 2:03am

99nsr125 wrote: »

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

if we can rely on imports of it then certainly yes it is, let someone else do the dirty work.
however, given the ridiculous costs and the waste, and given energy security should be important, then i'm afraid nuclear while it does work isn't the answer or viable until those costs come down substantially and we can have it so there is little to no waste.
nuclear isn't green by any stretch currently, it just doesn't emit smoke so it's lack of greenness isn't quite so visible.

beauf · 24-02-2021 2:27am

99nsr125 wrote: »

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

If a nuclear power station appeared here tomorrow.

We still wouldn't have the infrastructure to get people out of their cars.

TheBoyConor · 24-02-2021 11:26am

Nuclear energy is illegal in Ireland. There is positive law prohibiting its development.

Therefore , talk of nuclear energy for Ireland is pointless drivel. It'll never happen here. And the law is only one reason why it will never happen.

Zebra3 · 24-02-2021 11:30am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Nuclear energy is illegal in Ireland. There is positive law prohibiting its development.

Therefore , talk of nuclear energy for Ireland is pointless drivel. It'll never happen here. And the law is only one reason why it will never happen.

Good.

GT89 · 24-02-2021 11:39am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Nuclear energy is illegal in Ireland. There is positive law prohibiting its development.

Therefore , talk of nuclear energy for Ireland is pointless drivel. It'll never happen here. And the law is only one reason why it will never happen.

Laws can be changed

TheBoyConor · 24-02-2021 11:43am

Attitudes won't be so quick to change.

bk · 24-02-2021 11:46am

GT89 wrote: »

Laws can be changed

There are practical technical and economic reasons why Nuclear power at least in it's current form isn't suitable for Ireland. Our grid is too small and Nuclear power plants are too expensive and too powerful for such a small grid.

Perhaps in future with mini reactors, that might change. But for now, building interconnectors to France to make use of their Nuclear power (and export our excess wind power) is the more practical approach for us.

TheBoyConor · 24-02-2021 11:49am

The technical details of nuclear and grids are not the main barrier to its use in ireland. It would be grossly unpopular, there would be mass protest here at even the suggestion of nuclear. The planning process would be challenged, delayed, appealed etc with tremendous vigour by people with money behind them. The technical details don't really come into it.

No community, and probably no local authority is going to want to have that on their patch.

Cookiemunster · 24-02-2021 3:13pm

Yurt! wrote: »

The horse has long bolted with our dispersed population pattern (exacerbated over the years and getting no better) for a decent rail network. I think I read somewhere we're the most car dependant rich nation in the world second only to Qatar - yes, even more so than the USA.

If one visits countries like Japan (different plate of sushi I concede), public transport is an absolute dream, and there's no need to own a car whatsoever, with the exception of the northern island of Hokkaido (and even that blows Ireland out of the water for public transport).

I'd love to be optimistic, but I think we'll never even get close to countries like Sweden, never mind best-in-class countries for public transport like Germany / South Korea / Japan.

Like a lot of things, we pretend this dysfunction is normal.

According to the EU, Germany and Sweden have more cars per capita than Ireland. We're actually 21st out of 27.

We're also below Japan and South Korea. Yes our PT options are poor, but even in those countries, fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

PhilOssophy · 24-02-2021 3:31pm

monument wrote: »

The problem is the bit in bold does not really follow with cities which are in a comparable population range.

The density in Dublin City and Suburbs is overall comparable to cities with rail-based public transport networks and there's loads of scope for building extra density around stations, as happened in many cities with or after services were provided. Dublin has overall higher density than cities with similar populations.

And there's no great density in the towns around most S-tog stations in commuter towns and where there is a bit of density it was built recently or way after the train service was built.

I completely concur. I was merely emphasising the point that while everybody has some romantic dream of getting onto a train in their small village or town and being ferried off to their place of work, for most people if they could save 10 minutes by driving they'd drive.

Are you referring to S-tog in Denmark or what is S-tog? As I said already, there has to be joined up planning regarding where people are living and working before rail can ever be economically viable. Putting a rail line into any big town, but putting most of the jobs in industrial estates around ring roads, is a folly.

To be fair though, there's 2 separate discussions to be had. One about Dublin and its demand, one about beyond Dublin's commuter belt.

24-02-2021 3:42pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

If you are expecting a 100% modal switch, you'll be waiting a while

Taking Galway as an example, 8% travel by bus. The biggest issues in terms of using PT are
- Scheduled frequency i.e. a bus every 10 mins renders a timetable redundant
- Consistent journey times i.e. getting a bus during rush hour or outside rush hour, the journey times should be as close to equal for both

Right now GaCiCo are working on the 2 major projects to address the second point above. Once complete, BE will be increasing frequency thereby addressing the first point above.

Nobody expects this to result in 100% switch to PT, however I would expect to see at a min, doubling of the current figures if not tripling.

buffalo · 24-02-2021 3:47pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

According to the EU, Germany and Sweden have more cars per capita than Ireland. We're actually 21st out of 27.

We're also below Japan and South Korea. Yes our PT options are poor, but even in those countries, fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

But those stats are car ownership, not journeys made, average distance per journey or annual mileage, all of which would be a much better measure of car dependency.

24-02-2021 4:00pm

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the quarter of a billion euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

Isambard · 24-02-2021 4:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the billions of euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

only has to save one life to pay for itself

Yurt2 · 24-02-2021 4:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an energy infrastructure thread on the infrastructure forum better suited to that topic so might be best to move there.

The one thing I will say is this, if you want to talk about nuclear you need to bring 2 things to the conversation

- How to manage the waste over a multi-millennia time period and
- How to pay for that management

Look into Hinkley Point C in the UK. Anyone who thinks Ireland wouldn't completely mangle the construction and costs of a nuclear power plant needs their head checked.

Think of the National Children's Hospital debacle and multiply it by 100. It would probably bring down the state.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/21/hinkley-point-c-dreadful-deal-behind-worlds-most-expensive-power-plant

I think the Chinese have gotten involved since this article was written, and the cost overruns haven't gotten better. Oh, and the Chinese company is one of the one's being blacklisted by the US government for military links.

Markcheese · 24-02-2021 4:25pm

Honestly the best thing that can happen to public transport is the private bus and coach ,
In Cork there's aircoach and gobus to Dublin , and Dublin coach to waterford , aprox hourly each ,
Also west Cork express , cobh express and coming soon mallow express ... The plan is to put a private shuttle bus on to take passengers to colleges and the hospital from Patrick's quay ..
At minimal cost or hassle to the state or city council ,
The more the better ,

Yurt2 · 24-02-2021 4:42pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

According to the EU, Germany and Sweden have more cars per capita than Ireland. We're actually 21st out of 27.

We're also below Japan and South Korea. Yes our PT options are poor, but even in those countries, fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

You're equating the number of cars on the road with car dependency metrics. Different thing.

I don't think you can seriously make the argument that Japan is more car dependant than Ireland because consumers in Japan happen to own more cars on average. 5 minutes after leaving Narita or Kansai airport and you'd know that's not true. Go to peripheral Japanese cities and towns and you'll realize it doubly so.

Cookiemunster · 24-02-2021 4:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the billions of euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

€241m. Not even close to a single billion, never mind billions.

Del.Monte · 24-02-2021 6:17pm

Isambard wrote: »

only has to save one life to pay for itself

Are you serious?

24-02-2021 6:18pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

€241m. Not even close to a single billion, never mind billions.

Fair enough. Post fixed.

GT89 · 24-02-2021 6:50pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you are expecting a 100% modal switch, you'll be waiting a while

Taking Galway as an example, 8% travel by bus. The biggest issues in terms of using PT are
- Scheduled frequency i.e. a bus every 10 mins renders a timetable redundant
- Consistent journey times i.e. getting a bus during rush hour or outside rush hour, the journey times should be as close to equal for both

Right now GaCiCo are working on the 2 major projects to address the second point above. Once complete, BE will be increasing frequency thereby addressing the first point above.

Nobody expects this to result in 100% switch to PT, however I would expect to see at a min, doubling of the current figures if not tripling.

High frequency has to be put into practice and not only exist in theory. No point in having a bus scheduled to run every 10 mins if buses are bunched or there is an unrealistic timetable or PVR or buses commonly fail to operate due to staffing issues which seems to be a common occurrence on Bus Eireann.

Pete_Cavan · 24-02-2021 8:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the quarter of a billion euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

Do you think the road is only going to be rolled out for the hours 08.00 - 09.00 and 17.00 - 18.00?

24-02-2021 8:54pm

GT89 wrote: »

High frequency has to be put into practice and not only exist in theory. No point in having a bus scheduled to run every 10 mins if buses are bunched or there is an unrealistic timetable or PVR or buses commonly fail to operate due to staffing issues which seems to be a common occurrence on Bus Eireann.

Completely agree and BE pointed out the bunching issue themselves too

The 409 route in Galway is a great example of how to do it right. When GCC implemented the Dublin Rd bus lanes BE up'ed the frequency. As a result it ended up being one of the most profitable BE routes in the country such was the volume of people using it.

BE have already stated to the Council that they want to increase frequency across that route to sub 9 or 10 mins, can't recall, but won't until they have a clear run and avoid traffic, hence the Cross City Link and the Dublin Rd redesign. They have also put the same caveat on all other routes in the city too. There may be some odd tinkering here and there but no big jump in the frequency offered.

As for staff shortages, well, automation will eventually take care of that. However once you have a sub 10 min frequency on routes that dont get stuck in traffic, if a single bus on a route is not running, its not the end of the world. Not ideal, but not a deal breaker.

GT89 · 24-02-2021 9:42pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As for staff shortages, well, automation will eventually take care of that. However once you have a sub 10 min frequency on routes that dont get stuck in traffic, if a single bus on a route is not running, its not the end of the world. Not ideal, but not a deal breaker.

The staffing problems that BE have are quite severe. Automation is coming but it is a long way off and even when it does come it is most likely that initial autonomous buses will still require a driver present in the vehicle.

BE seem to have severe staffing shortages compared to Dublin bus even. Bus Eireann will only take on new drivers if they have a bus licence already and will not train car licence holders. Dublin Bus will take on car licence holders and train them up. Now Dublin Bus have staffing issues of their own but it appears to be to a lesser extent than BE.

I can't speak for Galway but I know there are serious staffing issues with BE commuter services in the GDA and city services in Cork. So I think this is something that needs to be looked at.

24-02-2021 10:11pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Do you think the road is only going to be rolled out for the hours 08.00 - 09.00 and 17.00 - 18.00?

Er..., no Pete.
No. I don't think that.
Did someone tell you that is likely to happen?

monument · 26-02-2021 9:20pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I completely concur. I was merely emphasising the point that while everybody has some romantic dream of getting onto a train in their small village or town and being ferried off to their place of work, for most people if they could save 10 minutes by driving they'd drive.

Are you referring to S-tog in Denmark or what is S-tog? As I said already, there has to be joined up planning regarding where people are living and working before rail can ever be economically viable. Putting a rail line into any big town, but putting most of the jobs in industrial estates around ring roads, is a folly.

To be fair though, there's 2 separate discussions to be had. One about Dublin and its demand, one about beyond Dublin's commuter belt.

If density population is the metric needed (as was suggested in the post I was replying to), then most commuter towns in the GDA should have Copenhagen-style S-tog services.

I’ve looked at Copenhagen’s commuter belt on a density population map, but it’s plan to see on google maps too and a live timetable at hand — unreal level of service to relatively small towns.

Even if the if it doesn’t prove that GDA towns would support Copenhagen’s level of service, it at least suggests the level of service could be far higher in the GDA.

Pete_Cavan · 26-02-2021 10:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Er..., no Pete.
No. I don't think that.
Did someone tell you that is likely to happen?

Then you should recognise that the road wont be used exclusively for commuting between Westport and Castlebar. The N5 is an important link for a sizable chunk of the country. It had an AADT over 13k at Castlebar in 2019, more than several parts of the motorway network, and almost 10k at Westport. The existing road is not suitable for that volume of traffic and needed to be replaced.

PhilOssophy · 26-02-2021 10:07pm

monument wrote: »

If density population is the metric needed (as was suggested in the post I was replying to), then most commuter towns in the GDA should have Copenhagen-style S-tog services.

I’ve looked at Copenhagen’s commuter belt on a density population map, but it’s plan to see on google maps too and a live timetable at hand — unreal level of service to relatively small towns.

Even if the if it doesn’t prove that GDA towns would support Copenhagen’s level of service, it at least suggests the level of service could be far higher in the GDA.

Yes but some of that dates from the 1920-30's right?

bk · 28-02-2021 2:09pm

S-tog is great, but it isn’t all that different to what we have with Dart and aiming for with Dart+

S-tog is suburban commuter rail. It runs every 10 minutes with 8 car trains, serving commuter towns around Copenhagen. Sounds similar right? Much in the same way that our Dart has 8 carriage trains serving the likes of our commuter towns like Bray, Malahide, etc. at 10 minute frequencies.

It does have two advantages, it’s tracks are separate from regional and intercity rail, thus making it simpler to operate and more Metro like and they have 7 lines.

Of course I’d be careful of the 7 lines comparison, there is lots of overlap between their lines. I’m certain they would call our existing Dart line two lines, something like Malahide to Bray and Howth to Greystones.

With the completion of Dart+ (and hopefully Navan), with the exception of their ring line, we will have as extensive network, with similar number of real lines, line length and stations. So once Dart+ is done, quiet similar.

I think it is important to keep in mind some history. Ireland is just 100 years old as an independent country and we were dirt poor for most of that. Denmark on the their hand is a very rich country. Go back far enough you are basically talking about Vikings and the Denmark-Norwegian empire, 17th century lots of empire building and massive wealth brought in by their Navy. In the 20th century they are still a trading power, Maersk is a Danish company and they struck oil and gas too!

With all that long independent history and wealth, I’d hope they have a well developed infrastructure. And they started building S-tog in the 20’s with the first line opening in 1934.

We still have a massive infrastructure deficit compared to much of Europe that we continue to struggle to catch up on. But I think we are definitely making strides in the right direction, with Dart+ and Metrolink.

I definitely agree that we should look at Copenhagen as a model to follow for Dublin, but also remember why the difference exists.

GT89 · 28-02-2021 2:28pm

bk wrote: »

S-tog is great, but it isn’t all that different to what we have with Dart and aiming for with Dart+

S-tog is suburban commuter rail. It runs every 10 minutes with 8 car trains, serving commuter towns around Copenhagen. Sounds similar right? Much in the same way that our Dart has 8 carriage trains serving the likes of our commuter towns like Bray, Malahide, etc. at 10 minute frequencies.

It does have two advantages, it’s tracks are separate from regional and intercity rail, thus making it simpler to operate and more Metro like and they have 7 lines.

Of course I’d be careful of the 7 lines comparison, there is lots of overlap between their lines. I’m certain they would call our existing Dart line two lines, something like Malahide to Bray and Howth to Greystones.

With the completion of Dart+ (and hopefully Navan), with the exception of their ring line, we will have as extensive network, with similar number of real lines, line length and stations. So once Dart+ is done, quiet similar.

I think it is important to keep in mind some history. Ireland is just 100 years old as an independent country and we were dirt poor for most of that. Denmark on the their hand is a very rich country. Go back far enough you are basically talking about Vikings and the Denmark-Norwegian empire, 17th century lots of empire building and massive wealth brought in by their Navy. In the 20th century they are still a trading power, Maersk is a Danish company and they struck oil and gas too!

With all that long independent history and wealth, I’d hope they have a well developed infrastructure. And they started building S-tog in the 20’s with the first line opening in 1934.

We still have a massive infrastructure deficit compared to much of Europe that we continue to struggle to catch up on. But I think we are definitely making strides in the right direction, with Dart+ and Metrolink.

I definitely agree that we should look at Copenhagen as a model to follow for Dublin, but also remember why the difference exists.

Maybe outside of Dublin our infrastructure has always been poor and laaging behind especially in the west but within Dublin I would say some our infrastructure was better in the past we had an extensive tram in Dublin don't forget. Instead of upgrading and consolidating the tramway system we destroyed it and replaced it with buses. A very foolish move if you ask me.

Zebra3 · 28-02-2021 3:19pm

Copenhagen’s s-tog is also far superior to the DART with its’ ability to carry bicycles. Doesn’t seem to be anything like that planned here.

Access to their stations is far superior too. They connect communities instead of dividing them.

bk · 28-02-2021 3:24pm

GT89 wrote: »

Maybe outside of Dublin our infrastructure has always been poor and laaging behind especially in the west but within Dublin I would say some our infrastructure was better in the past we had an extensive tram in Dublin don't forget. Instead of upgrading and consolidating the tramway system we destroyed it and replaced it with buses. A very foolish move if you ask me.

Very foolish, the car lobby really wanted to kill off trams.

Though do keep in mind, that those trams were nothing like our modern Luas. They had the capacity of less then half a double decker bus and much worse speed and frequency. Not at all suitable for modern public transport. Though obviously it would have been much better to keep those alignments and modernise them in time.

Much more interesting, is that until the 50’s Dublin was one of the cycling capitals of Europe, coming in just behind Amsterdam and Copenhagen.

https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/316518680036833622/

bk · 28-02-2021 3:25pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Copenhagen’s s-tog is also far superior to the DART with its’ ability to carry bicycles. Doesn’t seem to be anything like that planned here.

Access to their stations is far superior too. They connect communities instead of dividing them.

You can bring bikes on the Dart off peak, I’ve done that plenty of times.

Zebra3 · 28-02-2021 5:59pm

bk wrote: »

You can bring bikes on the Dart off peak, I’ve done that plenty of times.

Yep, and have done it myself on the Maynooth line, but it's nothing like the s-tog at rush hour.

Rammed with bikes to help people do those few km either end of their train journey.

donvito99 · 28-02-2021 7:11pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Rammed with bikes to help people do those few km either end of their train journey.

This is probably a point/question for another thread as well as for a time when Dublin has this Dart infrastructure, but what model is preferable - the Dutch one where you leave your bike at your origin station and pick up another at your destination, or the Danish where you BYOBike?

end of the road · 28-02-2021 8:08pm

ideally both options should be facilitated so as to increase cycling as an option for greater numbers.

bk · 28-02-2021 11:09pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yep, and have done it myself on the Maynooth line, but it's nothing like the s-tog at rush hour.

Rammed with bikes to help people do those few km either end of their train journey.

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

A bike easily takes up the space of two extra people, so you have one person with a bike instead of at least three people.

Off peak that is fine and very welcome, but at peak times on jam packed trains, that seems pretty poor IMO. I'd feel terrible about people being left behind at peak times because I brought a bike on!

I suppose you could argue that even at peak times, the service should have enough capacity for passengers + bikes, but that seems a bit of a stretch IMO. If every passenger brought a bike, you need like 16 to 24 carriage trains!

We certainly don't have that sort of capacity on the DART today or likely in the future. I think the Amsterdam model of bikes at either end (plus bike and scooter rental schemes) is more feasible here.

GT89 · 01-03-2021 1:04am

bk wrote: »

We certainly don't have that sort of capacity on the DART today or likely in the future. I think the Amsterdam model of bikes at either end (plus bike and scooter rental schemes) is more feasible here.

I'm surprised more don't use a fold up bike. Permitted on all modes of public transport at all times of the day.

When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

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