When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

23-02-2021 4:01pm

The discussion you are having is being held in a vacuum. The competing road infrastructure is just too agile for rail to compete with.

bk · 23-02-2021 4:19pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Irish Rail are unenthusiastic about rail in general. Quite how they are in charge of a rail network is beyond me. They are hopeless.

I'd say they are realistic about the opportunities available and demand that exists for rail.

They focus on projects like Dart+ that will bring hundreds of thousands of new passengers unto rail and out of cars, while being much less interested in sleepy rural rail lines that end up carrying a handful of passengers at subsidy rates of up to €500 per passenger carried!!

Same with rail freight, for the most part, demand from business just isn't there for it in Ireland due to various factors.

Some people seem to get all weirdly emotional about the Victorian rail network and how extensive it was, all while ignoring the fact that our modern rail network, while smaller, is much safer and carries vastly more people then ever.

GT89 · 23-02-2021 4:23pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Irish Rail are unenthusiastic about rail in general. Quite how they are in charge of a rail network is beyond me. They are hopeless.

Irish Rail's job is solely to operate trains and maintain track. The NTA and government policy dictates levels of investment and policy with regards to rail.

Chris_5339762 · 23-02-2021 4:24pm

GT89 wrote: »

Irish Rail's job is solely to operate trains and maintain track. The NTA and government policy dictates levels of investment and policy with regards to rail.

They really aren't that good at either of those things though.

GT89 · 23-02-2021 4:26pm

bk wrote: »

I'd say they are realistic about the opportunities available and demand that exists for rail.

They focus on projects like Dart+ that will bring hundreds of thousands of new passengers unto rail and out of cars, while being much less interested in sleepy rural rail lines that end up carrying a handful of passengers at subsidy rates of up to €500 per passenger carried!!

Same with rail freight, for the most part, demand from business just isn't there for it in Ireland due to various factors.

Some people seem to get all weirdly emotional about the Victorian rail network and how extensive it was, all while ignoring the fact that our modern rail network, while smaller, is much safer and carries vastly more people then ever.

With all CIE companies now due to move over to a gross cost operating model in the next couple it will be of zero concern to Irish Rail whether they carry 0 or 50,000,000 passengers a year as they will be paid a set fee from the NTA.

GT89 · 23-02-2021 4:30pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

They really aren't that good at either of those things though.

And if that's the case that is because of a lack of investment from the government. It is up to the government to fund Irish Rail to buy more rolling stock, improve infrastructure and hire more staff.

Akesh · 23-02-2021 4:31pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Irish Rail are unenthusiastic about rail in general. Quite how they are in charge of a rail network is beyond me. They are hopeless.

It's not just Irish Rail. The Commission for Railway Regulation, The NTA and DoT all are in dire need of major reform.

Just look at the decision to implement the Short Hop Zone in Sallins. Now people are travelling from Portlaoise and even further in the morning to avail of the cheaper fares. So instead of getting a train at Portlaoise, they are driving to Sallins and then getting the train. Adding an unnecessary car journey. Instead of decreasing fares, Irish Rail and the NTA have decided that building another car park is the solution.

You also learn very quickly that each body is very quick to abdicate responsibility for any complaints or concerns.

Until we get competent people leading and driving change in these organizations, nothing is going to change and the rail network will continue to be a disjointed-mismanaged mess.

Isambard · 23-02-2021 4:35pm

Akesh wrote: »

It's not just Irish Rail. The Commission for Railway Regulation, The NTA and DoT all are in dire need of major reform.

Just look at the decision to implement the Short Hop Zone in Sallins. Now people are travelling from Portlaoise and even further in the morning to avail of the cheaper fares. So instead of getting a train at Portlaoise, they are driving to Sallins and then getting the train. Adding an unnecessary car journey. Instead of decreasing fares, Irish Rail and the NTA have decided that building another car park is the solution.

You also learn very quickly that each body is very quick to abdicate responsibility for any complaints or concerns.

Until we get competent people leading and driving change in these organizations, nothing is going to change and the rail network will continue to be a disjointed-mismanaged mess.

Building a new car park suggests they think the new measures are a success, whereas by your post it seems they're a nail in the coffin. Fares need to be reduced dramatically, even down to zero.

bk · 23-02-2021 4:42pm

GT89 wrote: »

With all CIE companies now due to move over to a gross cost operating model in the next couple it will be of zero concern to Irish Rail whether they carry 0 or 50,000,000 passengers a year as they will be paid a set fee from the NTA.

Sure, but it will still come down to much the same decision. Invest in projects like Dart+ which end up carrying hundreds of thousands of people or sleepy rural lines that carry feck all people at great cost.

In the past it would have been a decision between Irish Rail and the government (Department of Transport + Department of Finance). Now it is a decision between Irish Rail, NTA/TFI and government (Department of Transport + Department of Finance). There are a few extra people involved, but fundamentally it is the same decision.

Also I'd say Irish Rail won't be as disconnected from the decision making as this makes out. They have too much specific expertise in all matters related to heavy rail not to be heavily involved in any decision making related to it.

GT89 · 23-02-2021 4:53pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, but it will still come down to much the same decision. Invest in projects like Dart+ which end up carrying hundreds of thousands of people or sleepy rural lines that carry feck all people at great cost.

In the past it would have been a decision between Irish Rail and the government (Department of Transport + Department of Finance). Now it is a decision between Irish Rail, NTA/TFI and government (Department of Transport + Department of Finance). There are a few extra people involved, but fundamentally it is the same decision.

Also I'd say Irish Rail won't be as disconnected from the decision making as this makes out. They have too much specific expertise in all matters related to heavy rail not to be heavily involved in any decision making related to it.

I'm sure their engineering/infrastructure department would be consulted and asked for advice but their influence is not what it's made out to be is basically what I'm trying to say. They are not calling the shots. The issues with the shortage of rolling stock can be put down to the government not giving Irish Rail or the NTA for that matter the funding to procure extra rolling stock.

bk · 23-02-2021 5:04pm

GT89 wrote: »

I'm sure their engineering/infrastructure department would be consulted and asked for advice but their influence is not what it's made out to be is basically what I'm trying to say. They are not calling the shots. The issues with the shortage of rolling stock can be put down to the government not giving Irish Rail or the NTA for that matter the funding to procure extra rolling stock.

Of course. Irish Rail can propose projects and do, but it was always "the government" who get the final say when it comes to projects that costs hundreds of millions to billions.

IR, NTA, etc. can all make their input, but in the end, it has always and will always be the government cabinet (government ministers) who have the final say on big projects like these.

Having said that, I do believe that the cabinet do largely listen to what IR, NTA, DoT, etc. put forward, they are the experts on these topics after all. But of course the government do have to balance that with all the other infrastructure projects (National Broadband Scheme, building roads, building hospitals, runways, ports, etc. etc.) and of course the wider national budget, Covid payments, etc.

monument · 23-02-2021 6:24pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

People need to remember that not all public transport is on rails. Most of our public transport is from buses and I can't see that ever changing. We need to stop building/expanding commuter roads on approach to cities and prioritise buses instead. Particularly in Dublin, widening of the N approach roads needs to be forgotten about. We also need to maximise the existing rail network but the realistic opportunities for new build heavy rail (in terms of sufficient catchment, potential alignment, etc.). Obviously light rail should be rolled out in and around cities but even with that, bus will likely still be main option for most people.

A few more rail and tram projects in Dublin could well exceed the capacity of Dublin Bus and private providers.

TheBoyConor · 23-02-2021 6:28pm

The DART was a crazy idea. It is stupid because half of it's catchment area is out in the Irish Sea. If it was an inland line it would have double the utility. But of course the whole thing was starting from a bad place, and existing 1800s line built along the coast for no apparent reason.

monument · 23-02-2021 6:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The discussion you are having is being held in a vacuum. The competing road infrastructure is just too agile for rail to compete with.

Rail was mentioned in the opening post, but the thread is about sustainable development and transport overall.

Even if this discussion is seen as in some kind of vacuum, I still prefer it to people discussing large new roads while dismissing alternatives and having no regard to emissions or sustainable development.

Chris_5339762 · 23-02-2021 6:31pm

bk wrote: »

Of course. Irish Rail can propose projects and do, but it was always "the government" who get the final say when it comes to projects that costs hundreds of millions to billions.

Hmm yes, but rumour has it that Irish Rail can't be bothered and really inflate prices. eg: They came up with an eye watering amount of money to dual track Athenry to Galway some years ago which government baulked at.

monument · 23-02-2021 6:33pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The DART was a crazy idea. It is stupid because half of it's catchment area is out in the Irish Sea. If it was an inland line it would have double the utility. But of course the whole thing was starting from a bad place, and existing 1800s line built along the coast for no apparent reason.

Stop. Please. The Dart is all used.

bk · 23-02-2021 6:49pm

monument wrote: »

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

Re-reading your post, I'm not sure this is really true.

It was certainly true in the past before the original DART project and Luas.

However refreshingly, I don't remember anyone saying anything like that about Luas Crosscity (as a project, not the original linked lines), Luas extensions, Luas 55m upgrades, Dart 8 carriages, 10 minute DARTS or the upcoming Dart+ and Metrolink projects.

In particular with Dart+ and Metrolink I've seen very little negative press for such major and expensive projects. Sure there is the odd nimby objections about station, placement, etc. But given how massive these projects are, it is surprising how little negative press there is about them and it feels like we might have turned a corner on how the public and press sees major public transport projects.

I don't remember anyone calling these white elephants.

I do think the WRC is a bit of a white elephant, but a minor one in the greater scheme of things. And I do think that the Galway Luas scheme looks to be a white elephant too, come on a Luas that carries half the passengers of a double decker Dublin Bus!!

I mean if a project really is a white elephant, it should be called out as such, specially if the money that would go to it, could be better used on nearby projects with better cost benefit ratios, like double tracking Galway to Athenry and Galway Busconnects.

But overall, I do feel we have turned a corner with public acceptance of major public transport projects. There seems to be a real appetite in the public for high quality public transport.

TheBoyConor · 23-02-2021 6:50pm

Was the biggest impact to the killing of rail freight not a prolonged strike by freight personnel? I have a vague memory of something like that which went on for so long it actively drove freight customers to switch to road freight

Maybe I'm way off, just had something in the fog of my memories that something like that had a large part to play
DaCor is offline Report Post

Kind of. The strikes surely discouraged businesses to move their freight on rail, and Iarnrod Eireann being deliberately difficult and extraordinarily expensive to do business with certainly adds to the revulsion. But by far the biggest killer of rail freight was the industries which used rail simply ceasing to exist....

Asahi - gone.
Quigley Magnesite - gone
Bell Lines - gone
Irish Sugar - gone
IFI fertilizer - gone
Shales - gone
Livestock - long gone.
Timber - massively curtailed
Foynes - there but only just as a shadow of its former self. Rail disconnected long ago.
Irish Cement - still there but only just and the cement traffic just doesn't suit the nature of where the cement needed to go, and an awful lot of cement is imported now anyway.
Tara Mines - still there but on borrowed time until the mine is exhausted. Dead man walking.
Gypsum - still here but gone from rail.

Zebra3 · 23-02-2021 6:51pm

bk wrote: »

But of course the government do have to balance that with all the other infrastructure projects (National Broadband Scheme, building roads, building hospitals, runways, ports, etc. etc.) and of course the wider national budget, Covid payments, etc.

And with getting re-elected.

end of the road · 23-02-2021 7:41pm

beachhead wrote: »

This is a fantastical discussion.Lots of quasi politicians contributing.Roads are needs for safe transport of goods,for travel to remote areas.Trains are not used because as stated too slow,too expensive,overcrowded and "certain" travellers.As for the environment/climate this country is a mickety mouse consumer of energy-go after the like of Russia,China and the US and Brazil to fix emissions.The soap box warriors here should chill.By the way electric cars will take 30 years to be in a majority unless the gov does something for drivers-the manufacturers will reduce prices to a profitable level only.Vote the greens for solutions and more taxes.Yeaaaah

cutting our carbon emmitions benefits us more then it benefits the wider world.
sure, it would be great to have china, brazil, russsia and india on board with a world view to cut carbon emmitions but them not doing so is not an argument against or excuse for us to not cut ours.
the US will likely re-sign up to the various climate change agreements, i believe re-signing up to the paris agreement has already been agreed to.

end of the road · 23-02-2021 8:03pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Kind of. The strikes surely discouraged businesses to move their freight on rail, and Iarnrod Eireann being deliberately difficult and extraordinarily expensive to do business with certainly adds to the revulsion. But by far the biggest killer of rail freight was the industries which used rail simply ceasing to exist....

Asahi - gone.
Quigley Magnesite - gone
Bell Lines - gone
Irish Sugar - gone
IFI fertilizer - gone
Shales - gone
Livestock - long gone.
Timber - massively curtailed
Foynes - there but only just as a shadow of its former self. Rail disconnected long ago.
Irish Cement - still there but only just and the cement traffic just doesn't suit the nature of where the cement needed to go, and an awful lot of cement is imported now anyway.
Tara Mines - still there but on borrowed time until the mine is exhausted. Dead man walking.
Gypsum - still here but gone from rail.

Gypsum i think doesn't even produce as much as it did at the end of it's use of rail, which if i remember rightly, was around 1 train a week at the end.

roadmaster · 23-02-2021 9:04pm

bk wrote: »

I'd say they are realistic about the opportunities available and demand that exists for rail.

They focus on projects like Dart+ that will bring hundreds of thousands of new passengers unto rail and out of cars, while being much less interested in sleepy rural rail lines that end up carrying a handful of passengers at subsidy rates of up to €500 per passenger carried!!

Same with rail freight, for the most part, demand from business just isn't there for it in Ireland due to various factors.

Some people seem to get all weirdly emotional about the Victorian rail network and how extensive it was, all while ignoring the fact that our modern rail network, while smaller, is much safer and carries vastly more people then ever.

I have a solution: Rail for Dubs & Roads for the rest of us

monument · 23-02-2021 11:23pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The problem in Ireland is we allow so much hodge-podge planning without any coherent consideration for either high-density housing or high-density working, even in Dublin this doesn't happen to anything like the extent of other countries.
Unfortunately, by the time we'd revert these mistakes, many of us will be 6 feet under.

The problem is the bit in bold does not really follow with cities which are in a comparable population range.

The density in Dublin City and Suburbs is overall comparable to cities with rail-based public transport networks and there's loads of scope for building extra density around stations, as happened in many cities with or after services were provided. Dublin has overall higher density than cities with similar populations.

And there's no great density in the towns around most S-tog stations in commuter towns and where there is a bit of density it was built recently or way after the train service was built.

ohographite · 23-02-2021 11:39pm

bk wrote: »

They focus on projects like Dart+ that will bring hundreds of thousands of new passengers unto rail and out of cars, while being much less interested in sleepy rural rail lines that end up carrying a handful of passengers at subsidy rates of up to €500 per passenger carried!!

I am certain that the two sleepiest railways in the country, Limerick Junction-Waterford and Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy, would both be used for hundreds more journeys each day, if their timetables were altered so that trains from these lines arrived into Limerick and Waterford cities in time for the start of the working day, and departed them after the end of it, which would allow people working in Limerick or Waterford to use these lines to travel to work. It is at least worth trying, and I am glad that there is a campaign group, The North Tiperary Community Rail Partnership, trying to get Irish Rail to do that with the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy line. I would definitely say that it is a realistic goal to retain what is left of Ireland's rail network, and make it work.

Spook_ie · 23-02-2021 11:49pm

monument wrote: »

Stop. Please. The Dart is all used.

I think you are misunderstanding the poster, if I read it correctly, they mean if a line has a 3 mile catchment area each side of it then half the catchment area is in the Irish sea, whereas if it were feasible to close it down and reconstruct it 3 miles inland you would double the actual catchment area.

Perhaps ( considering the infeasibility of moving the rail/dart ) we should instead fill in 3 miles of the Irish Sea and build some infrastructure there

monument · 24-02-2021 12:06am

bk wrote: »

Re-reading your post, I'm not sure this is really true.

It was certainly true in the past before the original DART project and Luas.

However refreshingly, I don't remember anyone saying anything like that about Luas Crosscity (as a project, not the original linked lines), Luas extensions, Luas 55m upgrades, Dart 8 carriages, 10 minute DARTS or the upcoming Dart+ and Metrolink projects.

In particular with Dart+ and Metrolink I've seen very little negative press for such major and expensive projects. Sure there is the odd nimby objections about station, placement, etc. But given how massive these projects are, it is surprising how little negative press there is about them and it feels like we might have turned a corner on how the public and press sees major public transport projects.

I don't remember anyone calling these white elephants.

I do think the WRC is a bit of a white elephant, but a minor one in the greater scheme of things. And I do think that the Galway Luas scheme looks to be a white elephant too, come on a Luas that carries half the passengers of a double decker Dublin Bus!!

I mean if a project really is a white elephant, it should be called out as such, specially if the money that would go to it, could be better used on nearby projects with better cost benefit ratios, like double tracking Galway to Athenry and Galway Busconnects.

But overall, I do feel we have turned a corner with public acceptance of major public transport projects. There seems to be a real appetite in the public for high quality public transport.

Michael McDowell and others are still raving about Metrolink and Busconnects. People don't generally object to railway stock upgrades.

The Busconnects opposition is massive and the NTA has made a huge mistake dealing with on-road traffic restrictions and CPOs at the same time. There's already been interface in the project (ie Templeogue Village removed from the project).

Cross-city was not objected to (too much, bar the likes of Cllr Flynn) because it was the end of an argument which lasted a decade after the first lines were opened.

I agree the idea of mini-trams is daft. Any Luas outside Dublin should be built decently with high-capacity and frequency in mind and densification included with the project or not at all.

monument · 24-02-2021 12:17am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

The DART was a crazy idea. It is stupid because half of it's catchment area is out in the Irish Sea. If it was an inland line it would have double the utility. But of course the whole thing was starting from a bad place, and existing 1800s line built along the coast for no apparent reason.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Kind of. The strikes surely discouraged businesses to move their freight on rail, and Iarnrod Eireann being deliberately difficult and extraordinarily expensive to do business with certainly adds to the revulsion. But by far the biggest killer of rail freight was the industries which used rail simply ceasing to exist....

Asahi - gone.
Quigley Magnesite - gone
Bell Lines - gone
Irish Sugar - gone
IFI fertilizer - gone
Shales - gone
Livestock - long gone.
Timber - massively curtailed
Foynes - there but only just as a shadow of its former self. Rail disconnected long ago.
Irish Cement - still there but only just and the cement traffic just doesn't suit the nature of where the cement needed to go, and an awful lot of cement is imported now anyway.
Tara Mines - still there but on borrowed time until the mine is exhausted. Dead man walking.
Gypsum - still here but gone from rail.

Right, so, the guy who told that an oversubscribed passenger service in a city was "crazy idea" has views about rail freight.

beauf · 24-02-2021 1:12am

monument wrote: »

It seems the penny isn’t dropping with a lot of people that continuing to build an unsustainable transport system isn’t compatible with acting on climate change — car use alone amounts to ~13% of Ireland’s carbon emissions, then there’s build and maintenance, poor land use etc.

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

EDITED: I should stress that I think rail is only a part of the sustainable transport mix -- my point about is how jarring it is that people have no problem with laods of dual carriageways to towns start calling rail in city a white elephant.

Hard to get people invested in a rail solution they won't see any benefit from for decades. Cars and roads might be the worst solution. But it's the one people get the benefit from quickest.

I know people who can do their journey faster on a train or even walking. They will still drive. There is no persuading them.

I've had a annual rail ticket for decades and commuted cycling a reasonable amount. Even I had given up and had gone back to the car pre Covid. Post Covid it won't matter my commuting is unlikely ever to daily ever again.

All I see is bad planning everywhere. We aren't learning from past mistakes. There is no coordinated vision. It's all knee jerk reactions to some flash issue.

99nsr125 · 24-02-2021 1:21am

monument wrote: »

It seems the penny isn’t dropping with a lot of people that continuing to build an unsustainable transport system isn’t compatible with acting on climate change — car use alone amounts to ~13% of Ireland’s carbon emissions, then there’s build and maintenance, poor land use etc.

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

EDITED: I should stress that I think rail is only a part of the sustainable transport mix -- my point about is how jarring it is that people have no problem with laods of dual carriageways to towns start calling rail in city a white elephant.

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

Yurt2 · 24-02-2021 1:31am

The horse has long bolted with our dispersed population pattern (exacerbated over the years and getting no better) for a decent rail network. I think I read somewhere we're the most car dependant rich nation in the world second only to Qatar - yes, even more so than the USA.

If one visits countries like Japan (different plate of sushi I concede), public transport is an absolute dream, and there's no need to own a car whatsoever, with the exception of the northern island of Hokkaido (and even that blows Ireland out of the water for public transport).

I'd love to be optimistic, but I think we'll never even get close to countries like Sweden, never mind best-in-class countries for public transport like Germany / South Korea / Japan.

Like a lot of things, we pretend this dysfunction is normal.

When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

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