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When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

monument

It seems the penny isn’t dropping with a lot of people that continuing to build an unsustainable transport system isn’t compatible with acting on climate change — car use alone amounts to ~13% of Ireland’s carbon emissions, then there’s build and maintenance, poor land use etc.

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

EDITED: I should stress that I think rail is only a part of the sustainable transport mix -- my point about is how jarring it is that people have no problem with laods of dual carriageways to towns start calling rail in city a white elephant.

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S-tog is great, but it isn’t all that different to what we have with Dart and aiming for with Dart+

S-tog is suburban commuter rail. It runs every 10 minutes with 8 car trains, serving commuter towns around Copenhagen. Sounds similar right? Much in the same way that our Dart has 8 carriage trains serving the likes of our commuter towns like Bray, Malahide, etc. at 10 minute frequencies.

It does have two advantages, it’s tracks are separate from regional and intercity rail, thus making it simpler to operate and more Metro like and they have 7 lines.

Of course I’d be careful of the 7 lines comparison, there is lots of overlap between their lines. I’m certain they would call our existing Dart line two lines, something like Malahide to Bray and Howth to Greystones.

With the completion of Dart+ (and hopefully Navan), with the exception of their ring line, we will have as extensive network, with similar number of real lines, line length and stations. So once Dart+ is done, quiet similar.

I think it is important to keep in mind some history. Ireland is just 100 years old as an independent country and we were dirt poor for most of that. Denmark on the their hand is a very rich country. Go back far enough you are basically talking about Vikings and the Denmark-Norwegian empire, 17th century lots of empire building and massive wealth brought in by their Navy. In the 20th century they are still a trading power, Maersk is a Danish company and they struck oil and gas too!

With all that long independent history and wealth, I’d hope they have a well developed infrastructure. And they started building S-tog in the 20’s with the first line opening in 1934.

We still have a massive infrastructure deficit compared to much of Europe that we continue to struggle to catch up on. But I think we are definitely making strides in the right direction, with Dart+ and Metrolink.

I definitely agree that we should look at Copenhagen as a model to follow for Dublin, but also remember why the difference exists.

GT89

bk wrote: »

S-tog is great, but it isn’t all that different to what we have with Dart and aiming for with Dart+

S-tog is suburban commuter rail. It runs every 10 minutes with 8 car trains, serving commuter towns around Copenhagen. Sounds similar right? Much in the same way that our Dart has 8 carriage trains serving the likes of our commuter towns like Bray, Malahide, etc. at 10 minute frequencies.

It does have two advantages, it’s tracks are separate from regional and intercity rail, thus making it simpler to operate and more Metro like and they have 7 lines.

Of course I’d be careful of the 7 lines comparison, there is lots of overlap between their lines. I’m certain they would call our existing Dart line two lines, something like Malahide to Bray and Howth to Greystones.

With the completion of Dart+ (and hopefully Navan), with the exception of their ring line, we will have as extensive network, with similar number of real lines, line length and stations. So once Dart+ is done, quiet similar.

I think it is important to keep in mind some history. Ireland is just 100 years old as an independent country and we were dirt poor for most of that. Denmark on the their hand is a very rich country. Go back far enough you are basically talking about Vikings and the Denmark-Norwegian empire, 17th century lots of empire building and massive wealth brought in by their Navy. In the 20th century they are still a trading power, Maersk is a Danish company and they struck oil and gas too!

With all that long independent history and wealth, I’d hope they have a well developed infrastructure. And they started building S-tog in the 20’s with the first line opening in 1934.

We still have a massive infrastructure deficit compared to much of Europe that we continue to struggle to catch up on. But I think we are definitely making strides in the right direction, with Dart+ and Metrolink.

I definitely agree that we should look at Copenhagen as a model to follow for Dublin, but also remember why the difference exists.

Maybe outside of Dublin our infrastructure has always been poor and laaging behind especially in the west but within Dublin I would say some our infrastructure was better in the past we had an extensive tram in Dublin don't forget. Instead of upgrading and consolidating the tramway system we destroyed it and replaced it with buses. A very foolish move if you ask me.

Zebra3

Copenhagen’s s-tog is also far superior to the DART with its’ ability to carry bicycles. Doesn’t seem to be anything like that planned here.

Access to their stations is far superior too. They connect communities instead of dividing them.

GT89 wrote: »

Maybe outside of Dublin our infrastructure has always been poor and laaging behind especially in the west but within Dublin I would say some our infrastructure was better in the past we had an extensive tram in Dublin don't forget. Instead of upgrading and consolidating the tramway system we destroyed it and replaced it with buses. A very foolish move if you ask me.

Very foolish, the car lobby really wanted to kill off trams.

Though do keep in mind, that those trams were nothing like our modern Luas. They had the capacity of less then half a double decker bus and much worse speed and frequency. Not at all suitable for modern public transport. Though obviously it would have been much better to keep those alignments and modernise them in time.

Much more interesting, is that until the 50’s Dublin was one of the cycling capitals of Europe, coming in just behind Amsterdam and Copenhagen.

https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/316518680036833622/

Zebra3 wrote: »

Copenhagen’s s-tog is also far superior to the DART with its’ ability to carry bicycles. Doesn’t seem to be anything like that planned here.

Access to their stations is far superior too. They connect communities instead of dividing them.

You can bring bikes on the Dart off peak, I’ve done that plenty of times.

Zebra3

bk wrote: »

You can bring bikes on the Dart off peak, I’ve done that plenty of times.

Yep, and have done it myself on the Maynooth line, but it's nothing like the s-tog at rush hour.

Rammed with bikes to help people do those few km either end of their train journey.

donvito99

Zebra3 wrote: »

Rammed with bikes to help people do those few km either end of their train journey.

This is probably a point/question for another thread as well as for a time when Dublin has this Dart infrastructure, but what model is preferable - the Dutch one where you leave your bike at your origin station and pick up another at your destination, or the Danish where you BYOBike?

end of the road

ideally both options should be facilitated so as to increase cycling as an option for greater numbers.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yep, and have done it myself on the Maynooth line, but it's nothing like the s-tog at rush hour.

Rammed with bikes to help people do those few km either end of their train journey.

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

A bike easily takes up the space of two extra people, so you have one person with a bike instead of at least three people.

Off peak that is fine and very welcome, but at peak times on jam packed trains, that seems pretty poor IMO. I'd feel terrible about people being left behind at peak times because I brought a bike on!

I suppose you could argue that even at peak times, the service should have enough capacity for passengers + bikes, but that seems a bit of a stretch IMO. If every passenger brought a bike, you need like 16 to 24 carriage trains!

We certainly don't have that sort of capacity on the DART today or likely in the future. I think the Amsterdam model of bikes at either end (plus bike and scooter rental schemes) is more feasible here.

GT89

bk wrote: »

We certainly don't have that sort of capacity on the DART today or likely in the future. I think the Amsterdam model of bikes at either end (plus bike and scooter rental schemes) is more feasible here.

I'm surprised more don't use a fold up bike. Permitted on all modes of public transport at all times of the day.

monument

bk wrote: »

S-tog is great, but it isn’t all that different to what we have with Dart and aiming for with Dart+

S-tog is suburban commuter rail. It runs every 10 minutes with 8 car trains, serving commuter towns around Copenhagen. Sounds similar right? Much in the same way that our Dart has 8 carriage trains serving the likes of our commuter towns like Bray, Malahide, etc. at 10 minute frequencies.

It does have two advantages, it’s tracks are separate from regional and intercity rail, thus making it simpler to operate and more Metro like and they have 7 lines.

Of course I’d be careful of the 7 lines comparison, there is lots of overlap between their lines. I’m certain they would call our existing Dart line two lines, something like Malahide to Bray and Howth to Greystones.

With the completion of Dart+ (and hopefully Navan), with the exception of their ring line, we will have as extensive network, with similar number of real lines, line length and stations. So once Dart+ is done, quiet similar.

I think it is important to keep in mind some history. Ireland is just 100 years old as an independent country and we were dirt poor for most of that. Denmark on the their hand is a very rich country. Go back far enough you are basically talking about Vikings and the Denmark-Norwegian empire, 17th century lots of empire building and massive wealth brought in by their Navy. In the 20th century they are still a trading power, Maersk is a Danish company and they struck oil and gas too!

With all that long independent history and wealth, I’d hope they have a well developed infrastructure. And they started building S-tog in the 20’s with the first line opening in 1934.

We still have a massive infrastructure deficit compared to much of Europe that we continue to struggle to catch up on. But I think we are definitely making strides in the right direction, with Dart+ and Metrolink.

I definitely agree that we should look at Copenhagen as a model to follow for Dublin, but also remember why the difference exists.

A wider Dart network could have been funded more than once in our history and we have chosen time and time again to fund roads instead.

But my point was not re how far behind we are, but comparing the towns served in the vain that Dublin could service those towns by rail -- in the context of replying to what another poster had said.

I think the S-tog is very different from Dart now, and, while Dart+ will do some catching up, your point re the lack of segregation from intercity/regional might be a key one.

monument

bk wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

A bike easily takes up the space of two extra people, so you have one person with a bike instead of at least three people.

Off peak that is fine and very welcome, but at peak times on jam packed trains, that seems pretty poor IMO. I'd feel terrible about people being left behind at peak times because I brought a bike on!

I suppose you could argue that even at peak times, the service should have enough capacity for passengers + bikes, but that seems a bit of a stretch IMO. If every passenger brought a bike, you need like 16 to 24 carriage trains!

We certainly don't have that sort of capacity on the DART today or likely in the future. I think the Amsterdam model of bikes at either end (plus bike and scooter rental schemes) is more feasible here.

Totally agree with that -- see: https://irishcycle.com/2019/11/19/heres-how-the-dutch-deal-with-bicycle-train-commuting-and-its-not-how-many-think-it-is/

But we well have to start spending large sums on bicycle parking at stations.

[Deleted User]

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Then you should recognise that the road wont be used exclusively for commuting between Westport and Castlebar. The N5 is an important link for a sizable chunk of the country. It had an AADT over 13k at Castlebar in 2019, more than several parts of the motorway network, and almost 10k at Westport. The existing road is not suitable for that volume of traffic and needed to be replaced.

Wrong again, Pete. The new road is essentially between Castlebar and Westport, therefore it will be used between Castlebar and Westport.
The existing road is fine. It could be upgraded if needs be, they have decimated every last branch of nature there over the last few months so to bulldoze a few yards either way would be much easier than this white elephant they are ramming through the area.

cgcsb

There is a good argument in favour of further road development (although much less than the in the 2000s). Connecting the ports to the motorway network at Rosslare, Ringaskiddy and Foynes for example. Also completing the intercity motorway network by connecting Cork-Limerick and Dublin-Sligo. There's also a need to improve the secondary routes which are little more than boreens in parts for purely safety reasons.

That being said, public transport in and around the cities needs generations of improvements in the next 10 years and I'm afraid what's planned won't cut it. Between Busconnects, Metrolink, DART+ and the Luas projects we'll be about where the UK was in the 1990s, just not good enough, especially in the provincial cities. LSMATS and CMATS are plans for increasing car journeys. LSMATS actually rejects comuter rail in the City in the period up until 2040. Even within Dublin, assuming all current plans fruit, we'll still have hundreds of thousands of people living in urban areas that are outside the catchment of a rail line. By 2030 we'll still have massive capacity issues on luas and bus, perhaps also on the existing DART line. Demand management measures like higher fares at peak times will have to be rolled out.

We're also still building most new housing on greenfield sites, so at this point things can only deteriorate.

adocholiday

I live near Rathdrum in South County Wicklow and work in Dublin. The Rosslare train passes through Rathdrum but as a commuter service it's dreadful. There are 2 trains in the morning (pre-covid - only 1 now) and 1 service in the evening, and they both take over 90 minutes to cover a 60km journey on a good day. Bear in mind that beyond Greystones this train serves Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey, and Enniscorthy all of which are big towns with a sizeable commuter base to Dublin. Relatively speaking nobody uses the train, but the N11 is at a standstill from 7am-9am and 4pm-7pm every weekday, with heavy traffic maybe an hour either side of those bands. I absolutely cannot stand sitting in traffic, there is nothing more soul destroying, but even still the car is a better option for me because the train is so limited and so slow.

The M11 upgrade project is in the public consultation phase at the moment and honestly I think it's such a massive waste of money. I don't think it's going to make a massive difference to the congestion as it is and with all the housing being built from Gorey to Newtownmountkennedy the new capacity is just going to be eaten up in no time. I think for a proper difference to be made here, a proper double tracked high speed rail line from Rosslare to Dublin needs to be built in conjunction with the road upgrade. I would bet money that people would be much more inclined to use a train if it were viable. Especially now with the Brexit shenanigans we're probably going to see a lot more lorries etc. on the road too so I'd argue there's even more reason to do it.

[Deleted User]

Isambard wrote: »

only has to save one life to pay for itself

Great, let's lower speed limits dramatically and actually enforce them for a change.

That will save multiple lives. You'd be up for that I'm sure?

cgcsb

adocholiday wrote: »

I live near Rathdrum in South County Wicklow and work in Dublin. The Rosslare train passes through Rathdrum but as a commuter service it's dreadful. There are 2 trains in the morning (pre-covid - only 1 now) and 1 service in the evening, and they both take over 90 minutes to cover a 60km journey on a good day. Bear in mind that beyond Greystones this train serves Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey, and Enniscorthy all of which are big towns with a sizeable commuter base to Dublin. Relatively speaking nobody uses the train, but the N11 is at a standstill from 7am-9am and 4pm-7pm every weekday, with heavy traffic maybe an hour either side of those bands. I absolutely cannot stand sitting in traffic, there is nothing more soul destroying, but even still the car is a better option for me because the train is so limited and so slow.

The M11 upgrade project is in the public consultation phase at the moment and honestly I think it's such a massive waste of money. I don't think it's going to make a massive difference to the congestion as it is and with all the housing being built from Gorey to Newtownmountkennedy the new capacity is just going to be eaten up in no time. I think for a proper difference to be made here, a proper double tracked high speed rail line from Rosslare to Dublin needs to be built in conjunction with the road upgrade. I would bet money that people would be much more inclined to use a train if it were viable. Especially now with the Brexit shenanigans we're probably going to see a lot more lorries etc. on the road too so I'd argue there's even more reason to do it.

I actually cannot get over how this project is advancing while the parallel rail line has seen virtually 0 investment since the state was created in 1922. The project is basically building a new commuter motorway, where a dual carriageway already exists, contrary to current transport and planning policy. Gas.

Well I'd point out that people really shouldn't be commuting from the likes of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy. They are far too far from Dublin for a daily commute. It doesn't matter if it's by road or a high quality rail, folks shouldn't be giving up so much of their day to commuting and commuting such large distances.

I know people are commuting these distances, but I just don't think it is healthy, it isn't good for their physical or mental health.

And at these distances I don't think the discussion should be road or rail, we are asking the wrong questions then IMO.

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

Seaswimmer

cgcsb wrote: »

I actually cannot get over how this project is advancing while the parallel rail line has seen virtually 0 investment since the state was created in 1922. The project is basically building a new commuter motorway, where a dual carriageway already exists, contrary to current transport and planning policy. Gas.

But even if you upgrade the line from Enniscorthy up you are still stuck with a long haul in from Greystones (1 hour) and I cant see how that could be speeded up. 30km in 1 hour isn't exactly fast rail transport. So getting a major speed improvement from Enniscorthy will still have a low overall average speed due to the Dart constraints..

cgcsb

Seaswimmer wrote: »

So getting a major speed improvement from Enniscorthy will still have a low overall average speed due to the Dart constraints..

So obviously this needs to be resolved more than there is a need for a new commuter motorway.

Isambard

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Great, let's lower speed limits dramatically and actually enforce them for a change.

That will save multiple lives. You'd be up for that I'm sure?

do you know, I can't think of a reason why not.

Seaswimmer

cgcsb wrote: »

So obviously this needs to be resolved more than there is a need for a new commuter motorway.

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

PhilOssophy

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

That is the problem. Greystones to the city centre the commuter trains sit behind the DART. The only realistic options (assuming there is no chance of just taking over vast swathes of roads which would probably prove unpopular with everybody) would be a railway line underground or a land reclamation project and a railway line built in what the sea is currently. Either those or we to construct a number of extra platforms to allow commuter trains to pass, but the train is so slow its hard to imagine it being worth it for what the saving is.

Both are phenomenally expensive though and hard to see any politician taking on the residents of Sandymount given they won't even allow a cycle lane.

adocholiday

bk wrote: »

Well I'd point out that people really shouldn't be commuting from the likes of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy. They are far too far from Dublin for a daily commute. It doesn't matter if it's by road or a high quality rail, folks shouldn't be giving up so much of their day to commuting and commuting such large distances.

I know people are commuting these distances, but I just don't think it is healthy, it isn't good for their physical or mental health.

And at these distances I don't think the discussion should be road or rail, we are asking the wrong questions then IMO.

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

I absolutely agree with you for the most part. I'd love to have the option of working for a software development company in Wicklow, Arklow or Gorey but the reality is that the vast vast majority of those firms are going to be based in Dublin for a whole host of reasons that can't be changed overnight. The same can be said for many other industries that are based mainly in the greater Dublin region. As a result housing will always be in demand in the Dublin area and so people are going to be commuting from these places for many years to come. There's also an argument for people who simply don't want to live in Dublin but likewise the commute can be seen as the price to pay for that.

However, regardless of all that nothing will change in either of those scenarios for many years to come and in the meantime we can't just wait for change, the Government is actively spending millions now to upgrade roads into Dublin that will be at or over capacity when they're finished. We have rail lines in place at the minute, we have people willing to use them if they're viable, so why not invest in them?

cgcsb

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

Lots of possibilities. If we're talking about building new motorways and retrofitting dual carriageways to provide more car capacity, then clearly there is significant budget available to solve the issue of capacity issue in a manor that is consistent with policy and doesn't induce greater demand for car travel. for example a number of passing loops could be built on the existing line. The Greystones-City gourney time need only decrease by about 10-15 minutes to offer a more attractive alternative to driving. DART+ South isn't designed yet, I'm sure this will offer some improvements. The next few years are going to see a massive reduction in car capacity in the centre of Dublin so building a new commuter motorway seems a bit of a waste of cash, you'll be 2 to 3 hours sitting in a car.

adocholiday wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you for the most part. I'd love to have the option of working for a software development company in Wicklow, Arklow or Gorey but the reality is that the vast vast majority of those firms are going to be based in Dublin for a whole host of reasons that can't be changed overnight. The same can be said for many other industries that are based mainly in the greater Dublin region. As a result housing will always be in demand in the Dublin area and so people are going to be commuting from these places for many years to come. There's also an argument for people who simply don't want to live in Dublin but likewise the commute can be seen as the price to pay for that.

Why not apply for a remote working job so? I'm a software engineer myself and can work from anywhere in the world. Remote working is quickly becoming the norm in the software industry. I work daily with people spread all over the world, including people spread all over rural Ireland.

Lots of software companies currently hiring for remote positions at the moment.

Also if you are earning that sort of salary, then you most likely could afford to live in Dublin. Why have you decided to live so far out?

adocholiday wrote: »

We have rail lines in place at the minute, we have people willing to use them if they're viable, so why not invest in them?

We are, that is what the DART+ project is, looking to cost 2.6 Billion is all about.

The Rosslare line however is a special case, it faces unique issues that are vastly more difficult and expensive to fix then all the other lines.

The only way to really fix the issues it faces would be a completely new alignment into Dublin. Most likely a new tunnel under Bray head and then an underground tunnel all the way into Dublin city center!

You'd be talking about billions for this line alone. I think you can appreciate that it wouldn't pass a cost benefit analysis. The towns along the line simply have too small a population to justify that sort of spend and they are too far from Dublin, even with a new alignment, for regular commuting and it wouldn't be good planning or public transport policy to encourage them as commuter towns.

Realistically it just won't happen in any of our lifetimes.

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean about it. I think far too many Irish people rush off and buy their perfect dream home, only to realise they now have a soul crushing long commute and then demand super expensive roads or rails be built to fix their mistake.

I think we need to be honest with people about what distances are acceptable commutes and how investment will go to those areas inside that distance.

Commuting beyond that distance needs to be actively discouraged IMO.

Instead for towns like these we need to be encouraging remote working, the National Broadband Plan and settings up local business in these towns, etc.

And for those who have no choice but to live in Dublin, then affordable, quality housing, connected by high quality public transport.

Encouraging people to give up 3 hours a day to commuting is simply not healthy IMO.

[Deleted User]

bk wrote: »

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

We shall see. I wouldn't be surprised if the gap narrows but not by Dublin improving but elsewhere getting worse. I live 80km from Dublin, plenty of people commute. 5 years ago a friend and I moved into a 3 bedroom house in a fairly shabby part of town for €650 a month. The cheapest house on Daft is now €1200 per month (thanks HAP!). If demand increases (rather than the artificial floor which has caused the increases so far) then Dublin will look more appealing if cheap rent away from the city no longer exists.

Deleted User wrote: »

We shall see. I wouldn't be surprised if the gap narrows but not by Dublin improving but elsewhere getting worse. I live 80km from Dublin, plenty of people commute.

And this is terrible. But the solution isn't a 5 Billion+ rail line 130km to Enniscorthy and having people commute this far, turning half of Ireland into a spread out suburb of Dublin.

Dublin isn't London, it is a relatively small city of just over 1 million (urban, not Metro or GDA). There really isn't any reason why the majority of people working in Dublin shouldn't be living within roughly 30km of the city.

The issue here really isn't roads/rail to far flung towns, it is one of proper planning and politics. It is building the affordable, decent quality housing in Dublin and reasonably close to it.

[Deleted User]

An 80km commute *shudder*

adocholiday

bk wrote: »

Why not apply for a remote working job so? I'm a software engineer myself and can work from anywhere in the world. Remote working is quickly becoming the norm in the software industry. I work daily with people spread all over the world, including people spread all over rural Ireland.

Lots of software companies currently hiring for remote positions at the moment.

Also if you are earning that sort of salary, then you most likely could afford to live in Dublin. Why have you decided to live so far out?

I actually have been remote working since last March and some level of remote work will likely be something that's available to me from now on, but the point I'm making is for commuters in general rather than just myself. Also I could afford to live in Dublin but for multiple reasons for another thread we prefer to live rurally. The commute was and is a price I'm willing to pay to live here but I still have strong feelings on how it could be better.

bk wrote: »

The Rosslare line however is a special case...

I do understand the issues facing an upgrade of the Rosslare line but again I come back to the Brexit scenario. In January the freight through Rosslare increased nearly 500% on the same month last year. Any lorry coming into Rosslare who has to deliver anywhere east of the Wicklow mountains right up to Dublin are likely to use the M11. Possibly even those heading for the M1, N2 or N3 but they could also use the N81. The point is that the N11 is going to face more traffic from Rosslare now anyway. Add to that the significant housing developments going on in Gorey, Arklow, Wicklow, Greystones, Bray... the capacity is going to be gone before they even complete the upgrade. We can bury our head in the sand and say ah it's too difficult/expensive to upgrade the rail line but not doing anything isn't viable either. Why not build a new track? Why not link the Luas to Bray/Greystones DART stations? There are options that can be considered I'm just throwing out ideas.

bk wrote: »

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean about it. I think far too many Irish people rush off and buy their perfect dream home, only to realise they now have a soul crushing long commute and then demand super expensive roads or rails be built to fix their mistake.

I think we need to be honest with people about what distances are acceptable commutes and how investment will go to those areas inside that distance.

Commuting beyond that distance needs to be actively discouraged IMO.

Instead for towns like these we need to be encouraging remote working, the National Broadband Plan and settings up local business in these towns, etc.

And for those who have no choice but to live in Dublin, then affordable, quality housing, connected by high quality public transport.

Encouraging people to give up 3 hours a day to commuting is simply not healthy IMO.

I do mostly agree with all of this by the way I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but with so many people working in Dublin it isn't feasible to have everyone live in the greater Dublin region either. I do agree that remote work, hubs, relocation incentives etc. should be the primary focus for companies who can use those methods but I think even with that people will still have to occasionally go to the office and some companies will never be able to work that way.

I knew what I was getting into when I moved here, I was prepared to accept that. But that doesn't mean we can't do anything about it. It doesn't have to take 3 hours per day to commute. Ireland is a small country and with proper high speed rail commute times from the likes of Gorey could be vastly reduced. It's about 90km from Gorey station to Connolly station by road which in no traffic takes about 80-90 minutes. The newest trains in the CIE fleet have top speeds of 100mph limited to 90mph but they go much slower due to the logistics of the tracks etc. The train should always be more viable than the car in terms of speed. The train may not be the silver bullet to all of these issues, but it's still better than just constantly building and expanding road after road and trying nothing else.