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When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

monument

It seems the penny isn’t dropping with a lot of people that continuing to build an unsustainable transport system isn’t compatible with acting on climate change — car use alone amounts to ~13% of Ireland’s carbon emissions, then there’s build and maintenance, poor land use etc.

Meanwhile, it's said off-line and on boards.ie etc that anything to do with rail is a white elephant -- it's like an echo of that Sunday Independent article from before the Dart opened calling the Dart a white elephant and saying it would be cheaper to pay for taxis for everybody.

EDITED: I should stress that I think rail is only a part of the sustainable transport mix -- my point about is how jarring it is that people have no problem with laods of dual carriageways to towns start calling rail in city a white elephant.

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[Deleted User]

99nsr125 wrote: »

Nuclear is the answer

There is an energy infrastructure thread on the infrastructure forum better suited to that topic so might be best to move there.

The one thing I will say is this, if you want to talk about nuclear you need to bring 2 things to the conversation

- How to manage the waste over a multi-millennia time period and
- How to pay for that management

GT89

99nsr125 wrote: »

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

100% I would be fully supportive of nuclear

end of the road

99nsr125 wrote: »

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

if we can rely on imports of it then certainly yes it is, let someone else do the dirty work.
however, given the ridiculous costs and the waste, and given energy security should be important, then i'm afraid nuclear while it does work isn't the answer or viable until those costs come down substantially and we can have it so there is little to no waste.
nuclear isn't green by any stretch currently, it just doesn't emit smoke so it's lack of greenness isn't quite so visible.

beauf

99nsr125 wrote: »

Infrastructure is not the problem

The energy source is the problem

Nuclear is the answer

Green advocates just need to cop the fųck on and realise this

If a nuclear power station appeared here tomorrow.

We still wouldn't have the infrastructure to get people out of their cars.

TheBoyConor

Nuclear energy is illegal in Ireland. There is positive law prohibiting its development.

Therefore , talk of nuclear energy for Ireland is pointless drivel. It'll never happen here. And the law is only one reason why it will never happen.

Zebra3

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Nuclear energy is illegal in Ireland. There is positive law prohibiting its development.

Therefore , talk of nuclear energy for Ireland is pointless drivel. It'll never happen here. And the law is only one reason why it will never happen.

Good.

GT89

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Nuclear energy is illegal in Ireland. There is positive law prohibiting its development.

Therefore , talk of nuclear energy for Ireland is pointless drivel. It'll never happen here. And the law is only one reason why it will never happen.

Laws can be changed

TheBoyConor

Attitudes won't be so quick to change.

GT89 wrote: »

Laws can be changed

There are practical technical and economic reasons why Nuclear power at least in it's current form isn't suitable for Ireland. Our grid is too small and Nuclear power plants are too expensive and too powerful for such a small grid.

Perhaps in future with mini reactors, that might change. But for now, building interconnectors to France to make use of their Nuclear power (and export our excess wind power) is the more practical approach for us.

TheBoyConor

The technical details of nuclear and grids are not the main barrier to its use in ireland. It would be grossly unpopular, there would be mass protest here at even the suggestion of nuclear. The planning process would be challenged, delayed, appealed etc with tremendous vigour by people with money behind them. The technical details don't really come into it.

No community, and probably no local authority is going to want to have that on their patch.

Cookiemunster

Yurt! wrote: »

The horse has long bolted with our dispersed population pattern (exacerbated over the years and getting no better) for a decent rail network. I think I read somewhere we're the most car dependant rich nation in the world second only to Qatar - yes, even more so than the USA.

If one visits countries like Japan (different plate of sushi I concede), public transport is an absolute dream, and there's no need to own a car whatsoever, with the exception of the northern island of Hokkaido (and even that blows Ireland out of the water for public transport).

I'd love to be optimistic, but I think we'll never even get close to countries like Sweden, never mind best-in-class countries for public transport like Germany / South Korea / Japan.

Like a lot of things, we pretend this dysfunction is normal.

According to the EU, Germany and Sweden have more cars per capita than Ireland. We're actually 21st out of 27.

We're also below Japan and South Korea. Yes our PT options are poor, but even in those countries, fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

PhilOssophy

monument wrote: »

The problem is the bit in bold does not really follow with cities which are in a comparable population range.

The density in Dublin City and Suburbs is overall comparable to cities with rail-based public transport networks and there's loads of scope for building extra density around stations, as happened in many cities with or after services were provided. Dublin has overall higher density than cities with similar populations.

And there's no great density in the towns around most S-tog stations in commuter towns and where there is a bit of density it was built recently or way after the train service was built.

I completely concur. I was merely emphasising the point that while everybody has some romantic dream of getting onto a train in their small village or town and being ferried off to their place of work, for most people if they could save 10 minutes by driving they'd drive.

Are you referring to S-tog in Denmark or what is S-tog? As I said already, there has to be joined up planning regarding where people are living and working before rail can ever be economically viable. Putting a rail line into any big town, but putting most of the jobs in industrial estates around ring roads, is a folly.

To be fair though, there's 2 separate discussions to be had. One about Dublin and its demand, one about beyond Dublin's commuter belt.

[Deleted User]

Cookiemunster wrote: »

fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

If you are expecting a 100% modal switch, you'll be waiting a while

Taking Galway as an example, 8% travel by bus. The biggest issues in terms of using PT are
- Scheduled frequency i.e. a bus every 10 mins renders a timetable redundant
- Consistent journey times i.e. getting a bus during rush hour or outside rush hour, the journey times should be as close to equal for both

Right now GaCiCo are working on the 2 major projects to address the second point above. Once complete, BE will be increasing frequency thereby addressing the first point above.

Nobody expects this to result in 100% switch to PT, however I would expect to see at a min, doubling of the current figures if not tripling.

buffalo

Cookiemunster wrote: »

According to the EU, Germany and Sweden have more cars per capita than Ireland. We're actually 21st out of 27.

We're also below Japan and South Korea. Yes our PT options are poor, but even in those countries, fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

But those stats are car ownership, not journeys made, average distance per journey or annual mileage, all of which would be a much better measure of car dependency.

[Deleted User]

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the quarter of a billion euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

Isambard

Deleted User wrote: »

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the billions of euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

only has to save one life to pay for itself

Yurt2

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an energy infrastructure thread on the infrastructure forum better suited to that topic so might be best to move there.

The one thing I will say is this, if you want to talk about nuclear you need to bring 2 things to the conversation

- How to manage the waste over a multi-millennia time period and
- How to pay for that management

Look into Hinkley Point C in the UK. Anyone who thinks Ireland wouldn't completely mangle the construction and costs of a nuclear power plant needs their head checked.

Think of the National Children's Hospital debacle and multiply it by 100. It would probably bring down the state.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/21/hinkley-point-c-dreadful-deal-behind-worlds-most-expensive-power-plant

I think the Chinese have gotten involved since this article was written, and the cost overruns haven't gotten better. Oh, and the Chinese company is one of the one's being blacklisted by the US government for military links.

Markcheese

Honestly the best thing that can happen to public transport is the private bus and coach ,
In Cork there's aircoach and gobus to Dublin , and Dublin coach to waterford , aprox hourly each ,
Also west Cork express , cobh express and coming soon mallow express ... The plan is to put a private shuttle bus on to take passengers to colleges and the hospital from Patrick's quay ..
At minimal cost or hassle to the state or city council ,
The more the better ,

Yurt2

Cookiemunster wrote: »

According to the EU, Germany and Sweden have more cars per capita than Ireland. We're actually 21st out of 27.

We're also below Japan and South Korea. Yes our PT options are poor, but even in those countries, fantastic PT doesn't take people out of their cars.

You're equating the number of cars on the road with car dependency metrics. Different thing.

I don't think you can seriously make the argument that Japan is more car dependant than Ireland because consumers in Japan happen to own more cars on average. 5 minutes after leaving Narita or Kansai airport and you'd know that's not true. Go to peripheral Japanese cities and towns and you'll realize it doubly so.

Cookiemunster

Deleted User wrote: »

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the billions of euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

€241m. Not even close to a single billion, never mind billions.

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

only has to save one life to pay for itself

Are you serious?

[Deleted User]

Cookiemunster wrote: »

€241m. Not even close to a single billion, never mind billions.

Fair enough. Post fixed.

GT89

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you are expecting a 100% modal switch, you'll be waiting a while

Taking Galway as an example, 8% travel by bus. The biggest issues in terms of using PT are
- Scheduled frequency i.e. a bus every 10 mins renders a timetable redundant
- Consistent journey times i.e. getting a bus during rush hour or outside rush hour, the journey times should be as close to equal for both

Right now GaCiCo are working on the 2 major projects to address the second point above. Once complete, BE will be increasing frequency thereby addressing the first point above.

Nobody expects this to result in 100% switch to PT, however I would expect to see at a min, doubling of the current figures if not tripling.

High frequency has to be put into practice and not only exist in theory. No point in having a bus scheduled to run every 10 mins if buses are bunched or there is an unrealistic timetable or PVR or buses commonly fail to operate due to staffing issues which seems to be a common occurrence on Bus Eireann.

Pete_Cavan

Deleted User wrote: »

The new Westport to Castlebar road currently under construction will shave about 2 minutes off a 15 minute commute.
Well worth the quarter of a billion euro and massive destruction of landscape it is costing. Not.

Do you think the road is only going to be rolled out for the hours 08.00 - 09.00 and 17.00 - 18.00?

[Deleted User]

GT89 wrote: »

High frequency has to be put into practice and not only exist in theory. No point in having a bus scheduled to run every 10 mins if buses are bunched or there is an unrealistic timetable or PVR or buses commonly fail to operate due to staffing issues which seems to be a common occurrence on Bus Eireann.

Completely agree and BE pointed out the bunching issue themselves too

The 409 route in Galway is a great example of how to do it right. When GCC implemented the Dublin Rd bus lanes BE up'ed the frequency. As a result it ended up being one of the most profitable BE routes in the country such was the volume of people using it.

BE have already stated to the Council that they want to increase frequency across that route to sub 9 or 10 mins, can't recall, but won't until they have a clear run and avoid traffic, hence the Cross City Link and the Dublin Rd redesign. They have also put the same caveat on all other routes in the city too. There may be some odd tinkering here and there but no big jump in the frequency offered.

As for staff shortages, well, automation will eventually take care of that. However once you have a sub 10 min frequency on routes that dont get stuck in traffic, if a single bus on a route is not running, its not the end of the world. Not ideal, but not a deal breaker.

GT89

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As for staff shortages, well, automation will eventually take care of that. However once you have a sub 10 min frequency on routes that dont get stuck in traffic, if a single bus on a route is not running, its not the end of the world. Not ideal, but not a deal breaker.

The staffing problems that BE have are quite severe. Automation is coming but it is a long way off and even when it does come it is most likely that initial autonomous buses will still require a driver present in the vehicle.

BE seem to have severe staffing shortages compared to Dublin bus even. Bus Eireann will only take on new drivers if they have a bus licence already and will not train car licence holders. Dublin Bus will take on car licence holders and train them up. Now Dublin Bus have staffing issues of their own but it appears to be to a lesser extent than BE.

I can't speak for Galway but I know there are serious staffing issues with BE commuter services in the GDA and city services in Cork. So I think this is something that needs to be looked at.

[Deleted User]

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Do you think the road is only going to be rolled out for the hours 08.00 - 09.00 and 17.00 - 18.00?

Er..., no Pete.
No. I don't think that.
Did someone tell you that is likely to happen?

monument

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I completely concur. I was merely emphasising the point that while everybody has some romantic dream of getting onto a train in their small village or town and being ferried off to their place of work, for most people if they could save 10 minutes by driving they'd drive.

Are you referring to S-tog in Denmark or what is S-tog? As I said already, there has to be joined up planning regarding where people are living and working before rail can ever be economically viable. Putting a rail line into any big town, but putting most of the jobs in industrial estates around ring roads, is a folly.

To be fair though, there's 2 separate discussions to be had. One about Dublin and its demand, one about beyond Dublin's commuter belt.

If density population is the metric needed (as was suggested in the post I was replying to), then most commuter towns in the GDA should have Copenhagen-style S-tog services.

I’ve looked at Copenhagen’s commuter belt on a density population map, but it’s plan to see on google maps too and a live timetable at hand — unreal level of service to relatively small towns.

Even if the if it doesn’t prove that GDA towns would support Copenhagen’s level of service, it at least suggests the level of service could be far higher in the GDA.

Pete_Cavan

Deleted User wrote: »

Er..., no Pete.
No. I don't think that.
Did someone tell you that is likely to happen?

Then you should recognise that the road wont be used exclusively for commuting between Westport and Castlebar. The N5 is an important link for a sizable chunk of the country. It had an AADT over 13k at Castlebar in 2019, more than several parts of the motorway network, and almost 10k at Westport. The existing road is not suitable for that volume of traffic and needed to be replaced.

PhilOssophy

monument wrote: »

If density population is the metric needed (as was suggested in the post I was replying to), then most commuter towns in the GDA should have Copenhagen-style S-tog services.

I’ve looked at Copenhagen’s commuter belt on a density population map, but it’s plan to see on google maps too and a live timetable at hand — unreal level of service to relatively small towns.

Even if the if it doesn’t prove that GDA towns would support Copenhagen’s level of service, it at least suggests the level of service could be far higher in the GDA.

Yes but some of that dates from the 1920-30's right?